What created God?

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It has been a while, but as I remember, the evidence points to the universe having a begining in the Big Bang...

That's no more proven than intelligent design. The big bang didn't necessarily begin the universe.

The only thing I have been insistent on in this thread is that the two statements:
Intelligence is required to create intelligence
and
There is an eternal intelligence

are logically consistant.

And I'm saying by this reasoning, if an eternal intelligence is possible, why wouldn't an eternal universe be possible? Simple question. Why is it that the universe had to be created by God?

 

[Flavius]

And I'm saying by this reasoning, why wouldn't an eternal universe be possible? Simple question. Why is it that the universe had to be created by God?

It is an eternal Universe in my opinion.

When this Earth has melted, and when this Universe has ended, another will come.

I believe that before this universe was, There was one before it and an Earth in it, and it was destroyed.

I don't believe in a beginning or an end.

 

[Flavius]

Can somebody tell me what a frubal is?

I ernt getting it.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Can somebody tell me what a frubal is?

I ernt getting it.

You gotta earn them. Most people don't deserve the amount they have (myself included lol).

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Read my post again.

I am quite sure it will say the same thing next time I read it too, so why not just save the time? If intelligence is required for intelligence to exist (create is a loaded word, avoiding it), then biological diversity via natural selection is impossible. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm not even going to touch the obvious contradiction created by your special pleading for god as an exception to your own rule.

 

[Mister Emu]

No it doesn't - we have no idea what, if anything, came before the big bang

Time came into being with the Big Bang, there is no "before" it.

If intelligence can be eternal than intelligence does not require creation. Whether you admit it or not, it's entirely contradictory.

The proposition does not state that intelligence requires creation, but rather that the creation of intelligence requires a prior intelligence.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Time came into being with the Big Bang, there is no "before" it.

Does that mean the Big Bang created God if there was nothing before it?

The proposition does not state that intelligence requires creation, but rather that the creation of intelligence requires a prior intelligence.

I respect you for arguing this point without sounding like an idiot, unlike some others that don't need to be named. But that said, why does creation of intelligence require a prior intelligence? Why can't all intelligence be eternal?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

If creation of intelligence requires a prior intelligence, how do you get away from infinite regression? Gods creating gods down on into infinity doesn't really seem like a useful answer.

 

[Mister Emu]

Can somebody tell me what a frubal is?

Frubals are a way for members to share appreciation with one another's posts...

I am quite sure it will say the same thing next time I read it too, so why not just save the time?

As am I, which is why I suggested reading it again, as it might help your comprehension.

If intelligence is required for intelligence to exist (create is a loaded word, avoiding it), then biological diversity via natural selection is impossible.

As my displayed religion may imply, I am not a materialist. I believe that God created humanity, how he did it? Current scientific consensus and evidence points me towards evolution.

You could say I am not an opponent of theistic evolution.

I'm not even going to touch the obvious contradiction created by your special pleading for god as an exception to your own rule.

It is not special pleading to point out that an instance of something, this case a possible eternal intelligence, does not fall under the a requirement, in this case prior intelligence, when it does not meet the qualification, in this case being created.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Time came into being with the Big Bang, there is no "before" it.

Wrong again. We have no idea what came before the big bang or whether or not the physical laws of the universe, including time, came into existence at the point of the big bang. All we know is that was cannot yet deduce or understand what existed before the planck time, like I said. Your assertion that time came into existence with the big bang has no more truth to it than the assertion that time did exist before the big bang or that time took the form of a small bearded man called Joe before the big bang.

The proposition does not state that intelligence requires creation, but rather that the creation of intelligence requires a prior intelligence.

Then your proposition is still based on the groundless assertion that intelligence is necessarily "created". There is no reason whatsoever to conclude that this is the case.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

As am I, which is why I suggested reading it again, as it might help your comprehension.

Just what special meaning to you think you have hidden in your statements?

As my displayed religion may imply, I am not a materialist. I believe that God created humanity, how he did it? Current scientific consensus and evidence points me towards evolution.

Fail. If evolution is true then at some point intelligence evolved from non-intelligent life forms. Even if some supernatural entity 'got the ball rolling' so to speak, it was still natural selection, not the creator of the first single celled organisms, that is responsible for intelligence existing. Intelligence is not required as a precursor to intelligence.

It is not special pleading to point out that an instance of something, this case a possible eternal intelligence, does not fall under the a requirement, in this case prior intelligence, when it does not meet the qualification, in this case being created.

Again, occams razor. If you are going to draw an invisible line, why take an extra step? Why can't the universe itself be eternal?

 

[logician]

One thing to consider is that there needs to be a reason for intelligence. Intelligence serves no purpose as a creator god that has existed forever (imagine the loneliness), but does serve a purpose in a universe that has evolved. Since everything points to evolution as the mechanism that creates new life forms, I believe all super-intelligent beings (or aliens) can only have evolved, not come out of nothingness, or were always there.

 

[Mister Emu]

Does that mean the Big Bang created God if there was nothing before it?

I believe God exists in eternity, that is outside of time.

Wrong again.

Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps views have changed since I last looked into it... But I remember reading, Hawking, I think it was, saying that asking about what happened before the big bang makes as much sense as asking about what is south of the South Pole(nothing).

Just what special meaning to you think you have hidden in your statements?

None, just what is plainly there.

If evolution is true then at some point intelligence evolved from non-intelligent life forms.

Yes, and?

Even if some supernatural entity 'got the ball rolling' so to speak, it was still natural selection, not the creator of the first single celled organisms, that is responsible for intelligence existing.

Unless of course it was the eternal intelligence that introduced the intelligence between non-intelligence and intelligent creatures in the process of evolution.

But that said, why does creation of intelligence require a prior intelligence? Why can't all intelligence be eternal?

Then your proposition is still based on the groundless assertion that intelligence is necessarily "created". There is no reason whatsoever to conclude that this is the case.

I'd like to note that it is in fact not my proposition. I only argued that the proposition and the belief in an eternal intelligence is internally consistant.

 

[Falvlun]

I only argued that the proposition and the belief in an eternal intelligence is internally consistant.

You are right: It is consistent to say that the creation of intelligence requires intelligence, and claim that an intelligence that was not created did not require an intelligent forerunner.

The problem occurs, however, when someone claims that the existence of intelligence in humans necessarily points to the existence of an intelligent (creator)God. There is no reason to assume that humans were created. Intelligence alone is not enough to prove that creation occurred, since your other premise states that intelligence can exist without having been created.

 

[Octavia156]

You are right: It is consistent to say that the creation of intelligence requires intelligence, and claim that an intelligence that was not created did not require an intelligent forerunner.

The problem occurs, however, when someone claims that the existence of intelligence in humans necessarily points to the existence of an intelligent (creator)God. There is no reason to assume that humans were created. Intelligence alone is not enough to prove that creation occurred, since your other premise states that intelligence can exist without having been created.

What if intelligence was a by-product of Creation?

I don't think you have to have intelligence to create intelligence at all - all you need is a Will to create. At some point that creation must tend to Order, without which it would never manifest. It is here that Intelligence comes into play... this is a long way down from any concept of a Absolute Creator God.

Creation doesn't need Intelligence, Creation just needs Will.

 

[Falvlun]

What if intelligence was a by-product of Creation?

I don't think you have to have intelligence to create intelligence at all - all you need is a Will to create. At some point that creation must tend to Order, without which it would never manifest. It is here that Intelligence comes into play... this is a long way down from any concept of a Absolute Creator God.

Creation doesn't need Intelligence, Creation just needs Will.

I personally don't believe that intelligence is needed for the creation of intelligence. Well, to be more precise, I don't believe that we were created, so it sidesteps the whole issue.

The argument was made by certain theists that the existence of intelligence necessarily points to an intelligent creator, because "the creation of intelligence requires intelligence." It was essentially their proof for the existence of God.

As you do, I believe that there are other ways to account for the existence of intelligence. (However, I would be hesitant to say that all creation tends to order, what with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and all )

 

[mahmoud mrt]

If all things that possess intelligence must be created by intelligence, what intelligence created God?

Hi,

God is the existence, it's a 1 to 1 equation

Existence: God, non existence: us and the universe

So existence bless the non existence with the bless of creation



http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...stence-non-existence-heaven-hell-torture.html



Regards
mahmoud

 

[Herr Heinrich]

If all things that possess intelligence must be created by intelligence, what intelligence created God?

Humans created God. He is one of the many faces put on Change.

 

[blueman]

No one created God. He always existed.

 

[AxisMundi]

Time came into being with the Big Bang, there is no "before" it.

There is a hypothesis that states that teh Big Bang was aprt of a cyclic event.

IOW that the Universe has it's own "seasons", the BB is the spring, and the "Big Crunch" the winter. It's a hypothesis I happen to adhere to.

The proposition does not state that intelligence requires creation, but rather that the creation of intelligence requires a prior intelligence.

One has to prove that intelligence requires an intelligent creator.

If this is true, then the "intelligence that created our intelligence" requires a creator itself, that the creator of the creation of our intelligence requires a creator, so on and so forth.

Bad, messy "logic".