What do I need to be saved from?

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's a book. SF already linked to it, but I prefer to direct people to non-commercial sites - "God against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism"

Meh, Amazon owns Goodreads, anyway.

 

[Quintessence]

Meh, Amazon owns Goodreads, anyway.

Whaaat? NoOOoOoOOOoOooo....

 

[InChrist]

What you call "sinfulness" is human nature. Unavoidable. Which, also, backs up my assessment of fear and adds the secondary imposition of guilt as a means to control the masses and ensure the validity of your views.


You might not, but many other christians do, and will. Is it spirituality or selfishness when they use the bible as justification for denying others their right to worship?

Okay, well the things that humans do by human nature which harm others and damages this world,which the Bible calls sin, is what I believe God desires people to want to choose to change. I don't think it is about imposition, guilt or fear, rather a better way.

Denying others their right to worship is selfishness, not spirituality. My own personal view is that if someone claims to be Christian and uses the Bible to attempt to deny others their right to freely worship, then I would question whether they are really Christian since a main theme of the Bible is freedom.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Okay, well the things that humans do by human nature which harm others and damages this world,which the Bible calls sin, is what I believe God desires people to want to choose to change.

Harming people is not what you said sin was. You said that it was "anything short of God's perfect". Which, to be sure, would include harmful actions, but encompasses quite literally everything since it is humanly impossible to be as perfect as you think god is. With that ideology, there is no winning, there is no becoming sinless, thus you impose guilt of being.

Denying others their right to worship is selfishness, not spirituality.

I'm glad we agree on that. Yet they are christian, make no mistake about it. The bible's theme certainly is not one of freedom.

 

[InChrist]

Harming people is not what you said sin was. You said that it was "anything short of God's perfect". Which, to be sure, would include harmful actions, but encompasses quite literally everything since it is humanly impossible to be as perfect as you think god is. With that ideology, there is no winning, there is no becoming sinless, thus you impose guilt of being.


I'm glad we agree on that. Yet they are christian, make no mistake about it. The bible's theme certainly is not one of freedom.

I stand corrected. I did say that sin was anything short of God's perfection, but as you stated that does include harmful actions. I do agree with you that it is humanly IMPOSSIBLE to be perfect as God is perfect, but I don't believe it is a no win situation and I'm not trying to impose guilt. Hope is more the way I see it, because the scriptures promise that there is new life in Christ and while I may still sin now I don't sin as I used to and I realize it a lot sooner and feel sorry about it when I do. I feel free and have assurance that I am not stuck in my selfish sin and I will one day be totally free from it forever.

Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.John 8:31

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Corinthians 3:17

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery. Galatians 5:1

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I think this pretty much covers it:

 

[VioletVortex]

Nothing. I think that Christians push the idea of being "saved" on non-christians as a means of fear mongering, much like the Catholic propaganda of the "Satanic Panic", or the concept of Hell in general.

 

[David T]

The way that story usually goes? By my estimation you need God to save you from... God.

I like that, very circular.

 

[David T]

I've occasionally been informed by members of certain religious traditions that I need to be saved from something. What is it that I need to be saved from?

Donald trump.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I do agree with you that it is humanly IMPOSSIBLE to be perfect as God is perfect, but I don't believe it is a no win situation and I'm not trying to impose guilt. Hope is more the way I see it, because the scriptures promise that there is new life in Christ

You might not be imposing guilt directly, but christianity is, and does. By perpetuating their tactics, you impose that guilt as much as you are a victim of that guilt. We see it stated here - "Sin is bad. Sin is not being as perfect as god. But you'll never be as perfect as god." Enter the hook: "Unless, you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, who will eventually save you from this sinfulness in the new life and world that comes after the end of the world."

And while you might feel free, let me ask you this: can you defy your god? Curse his name? Disobey him and still receive the same new life eternal? Can you be saved without Jesus?

 

[InChrist]

You might not be imposing guilt directly, but christianity is, and does. By perpetuating their tactics, you impose that guilt as much as you are a victim of that guilt. We see it stated here - "Sin is bad. Sin is not being as perfect as god. But you'll never be as perfect as god." Enter the hook: "Unless, you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, who will eventually save you from this sinfulness in the new life and world that comes after the end of the world."

And while you might feel free, let me ask you this: can you defy your god? Curse his name? Disobey him and still receive the same new life eternal? Can you be saved without Jesus?

It makes as much sense to me to defy God as I would defy gravity and jump from a cliff or curse His name as I would curse the air I breathe. For me God and the way provided for transformation and eternal life is simply reality in a spiritual sense just like the laws of nature are reality in the physical sense. Should I curse the One who has poured out His love for me? I don't think so. Honestly, I have disobeyed and yet He has promised forgiveness and the gift of eternal life is secure once received by faith.

This is a forum to discuss spiritual perspectives and that is all I am doing. I try to do so respectfully and though I may fail at times I am not trying to lay guilt on you or anyone. I don't understand why you keep focusing on guilt or why you should worry about others making you feel guilty if you if you are content with your own beliefs. Who cares what "Christianity" does as long as you still have your rights and freedom? If you don't agree with my perspective you just have to say so, which you have, and I respect your views. That doesn't mean I have to change mine or agree with you just because you feel guilty or whatever. I have enjoyed the discussion, but you are free to end the conversation anytime.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It makes as much sense to me to defy God as I would defy gravity and jump from a cliff...

So... the answer is then that you cannot? How, then, are you free? Gilded shackles and promises of the future still make for a slave. And I know the future that christianity promotes; you are not free even when it comes.

Honestly, I have disobeyed and yet He has promised forgiveness and the gift of eternal life is secure once received by faith.

Even for the apostate and heretic, who turn from the faith after having received the promise of that gift?

I don't understand why you keep focusing on guilt

Because that - coupled with fear - is what I see christianity using to keep it's pews full. An observation that is pertinent to this thread, which questions just what we need to be "saved from" that only Jesus can do. Strip away the fear and the guilt, and the answer is clear: nothing.

Who cares what "Christianity" does as long as you still have your rights and freedom?

Well now, that's a bigger concern that deserves a thread all of it's own. Needless to say, here in America we non-Abrahamics do constantly worry about this, and thus we care greatly what the christians do.

 

[InChrist]

So... the answer is then that you cannot? How, then, are you free? Gilded shackles and promises of the future still make for a slave. And I know the future that christianity promotes; you are not free even when it comes.


Even for the apostate and heretic, who turn from the faith after having received the promise of that gift?


Because that - coupled with fear - is what I see christianity using to keep it's pews full. An observation that is pertinent to this thread, which questions just what we need to be "saved from" that only Jesus can do. Strip away the fear and the guilt, and the answer is clear: nothing.


Well now, that's a bigger concern that deserves a thread all of it's own. Needless to say, here in America we non-Abrahamics do constantly worry about this, and thus we care greatly what the christians do.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18

No, the answer is not ... that I cannot. The answer is that I do not want to be a jerk to Someone who loves me and I love in return and I have freely chosen to love God. I don't know what your experience with Christianity is all about, but I didn't come to know Jesus and His love until my mid-thirties and it had nothing to do with fear or guilt.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Who cares what "Christianity" does as long as you still have your rights and freedom?

Although I recognize that this was directed at someone else, I am going to comment on this quote of yours:

I care what 'Christianity' (or Islam, or atheists, or pagans, or dictators, or democracies...) do because whenever a group manages to get power over other people, bad stuff starts happening.

Despite that I, you, and others 'currently' have freedom, in some places in the world, the fact is that many people do not. That by itself should be a concern of everyone who does have freedom.

And historically very few have enjoyed 'freedom' anything like that available in a few places.

So, you think we should each only be concerned with matters that directly affect ourselves, and should ignore the plight of others--so long as we ourselves are safe?

 

[roger1440]

Therefore, you'd have to accept some particular idea of "sin" and "Satan" and that there is such a thing as "eternal damnation." That is, you'd have to accept that the things one is supposed to be saved from are indeed a thing, yes?

There is more to it then just that. You have to believe in a specific set of books. We have no idea who wrote them. We have no idea where they were written. We have no idea when they were written and there has never been a agreement on what they mean.

 

[Pudding]

I've occasionally been informed by members of certain religious traditions that I need to be saved from something. What is it that I need to be saved from?

According to some members from some religions, you need to believe in and obey their religions' God to save you from the consequences of disbelief in and disobedience to their God.

By believe in their God, you have to believe their God exists as a real being and believe their God's standards of morals and laws are good and just.

By obey their God, you have to obey everythings which their God commands you to do and live your life concording to their God's morals and laws.

Because many people have partially different interpretations about the God's commandments, morals and laws, they then forming many different religions which have similar and sometimes also different interpretations about the God's commandments, morals and laws each for their own religion.

Some people from some of those religions then say you have to believe in and obey the God according to their religion's interpretation/belief, otherwise you will receive consequences in your afterlife.

If you choose to believe and obey one of those religions' interpretation of God, some people from some other religions will still say you'll receive consequences in your afterlife if you don't believe and obey their religion's interpretation of God.

 

[InChrist]

Although I recognize that this was directed at someone else, I am going to comment on this quote of yours:

I care what 'Christianity' (or Islam, or atheists, or pagans, or dictators, or democracies...) do because whenever a group manages to get power over other people, bad stuff starts happening.

Despite that I, you, and others 'currently' have freedom, in some places in the world, the fact is that many people do not. That by itself should be a concern of everyone who does have freedom.

And historically very few have enjoyed 'freedom' anything like that available in a few places.

So, you think we should each only be concerned with matters that directly affect ourselves, and should ignore the plight of others--so long as we ourselves are safe?

I appreciate you comments and thoughts and understand what you are saying. You are right, we in the US enjoy freedom that many do not have and historically freedom has been limited. I don't think we should ignore the plight of others. Actually, I believe Christians are called to stand up for the freedom of others. Many times "Christianity" has been used and abused by some for personal gain at the expense of the freedom of others, but this is not what I see God or the scriptures endorsing. Rather God condemns such behavior of lording over others.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I don't know what your experience with Christianity is all about, I didn't come to know Jesus and His love until my mid-thirties and it had nothing to do with fear or guilt.

And yet, that fear and guilt remains in the religion itself. Hell awaits. The Devil prowls for souls. A litany of "Thou Shall Not, period!", rather than "Thou should not, and here's why" or better yet "Thou should."

You may feel fine, but your religion is not.

 

[james bond]

I think it was the Roman Catholics who started the idea of burning in hell forever. That's a cruel punishment even for the worse of misdeeds. It sounds like something the early Roman Catholics would say, too.

Instead, the Bible says that all life will be destroyed by a global fire. One theory of creation scientists would be a supernova explosion or our sun exploding. When it will happen is another story, but it is prophecized that the 3rd anti-Christ (Napoleon and Hitler) and World War III would have to occur first. I think Nostradamus predicted 2060 or so, so it is within our lifetimes.

Anyway, the true salvation is from the flame. I think the flame will destroy our spiritually perfect selves and those who are cast in the lake of fire will lose their spiritually perfect identity forever.

The Flame by Jackson Pollock

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Yes, they did, around the year 400. Also Nostradamus "predicted" a load of vague statements that people have taken to mean a lot of things after the fact.