What do Jews find strange about Christianity and why.

[Rival]

The Old Testament itself told about a New Covenant to come. The New Testament has fulfillment of things foretold in the Old Testament.

Anything that can be proven?

You cannot prove (and this isn't even in the Tanakh, but let's suggest it were) a virgin birth.

You cannot prove miracles, and even if you could a false prophet can perform miracles

You cannot prove he rose from the dead (and even if you could, this is not a messianic requirement).

You cannot prove he came in a vision to Paul.

You cannot prove, and again it is unscriptural, that he will come back a second time to do all those things even you acknowledge the Messiah should have done the first time.

Speaking of which....

I'll come back to the question I keep asking Christians:

What did Jesus actually do and what qualified him to be the Messiah that can be proven? He wasn't a King, he did not unite the lost tribes, he brought no peace and he never had any children.

 

[Rival]

And according to Jeremiah 31:31-32

Sigh.

When will Christians drop this one?

The Torah will be written on hearts. It will be within not without. All you have to do is read the verse. Heck, all you have to do is read the Torah and the prophets. The Torah is forever, G-d's love for Israel is forever.

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law [Torah] within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and teach his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

35 Thus says the LORD,
who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the LORD of hosts is his name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
from before me, declares the LORD,
then shall the offspring of Israel cease
from being a nation before me forever.”

The order has not departed and the Law is the Torah. Also people still have to teach others about the G-d of Israel, so this hasn't happened yet.

 

[Shad]

It's not about genetics, obviously. It's about culture, history and language. Saying that Christians know Jewish Scriptures better than Jews do is like saying Americans know British culture better than Brits do. The Jewish people have been around centuries upon centuries before Christians and spent that time studying their Scriptures, reading it in their own language, through their own culture, with a native understanding.

Christians are taught what to see (Jesus) and then find it. This is self-serving. I may well ask you why are Muslims wrong when they find Muhammad predicted in the Tanakh? They're doing the exact thing Christians do.

Define British culture.

 

[Rival]

Define British culture.

You want me to define British culture in a forum post?

A culture is something one lives and experiences and understands inherently. It's part of a mindset, a way of life, a way of being. I can't make a list of all the things that British culture 'is' as a culture is a living, breathing thing. What I'm saying there is that an American could read all the articles he can find about living in Britain, he could talk to Brits, but ultimately if he came to Britain, it would still be difficult for him. The Brits would know it; we don't need to think about it, we just do because that is what we are used to. We know it. The American may 'know' it as from a textbook, but as we all understand - one can learn French or Spanish from a textbook, but in practice it is nothing like that as you will need to learn slag, dialect, accents, puns, rude words and so on.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Sigh.

When will Christians drop this one?

The Torah will be written on hearts. It will be within not without. All you have to do is read the verse. Heck, all you have to do is read the Torah and the prophets. The Torah is forever, G-d's love for Israel is forever.

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law [Torah] within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

35 Thus says the LORD,
who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the LORD of hosts is his name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
from before me, declares the LORD,
then shall the offspring of Israel cease
from being a nation before me forever.”

The order has not departed and the Law is the Torah. Also people still have to teach others about the G-d of Israel, so this hasn't happened yet.

No need to drop it. It is true. There would be a new covenant.

 

[rosends]

And according to Jeremiah 31:31-32

Well then, according to your misunderstanding of the text, sure. The Hebrew indicates that the Torah (not a new testament) with the same content will change in its being inscribed directly on the heart, not having to be taught from the outside in. Verses 33 and 34 make that explicitly clear, even using the word "Torati" -- my Torah, reinforcing the content as identical.

And verse 36 makes the entire idea that a new text could make the Torah null explicitly impossible unless one wants to delete the existence of the Jewish people.

 

[Rival]

No need to drop it. It is true. There would be a new covenant.

Respond to me when you've actually read my post and reply to what I said.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Anything that can be proven?

You cannot prove (and this isn't even in the Tanakh, but let's suggest it were) a virgin birth.

You cannot prove miracles, and even if you could a false prophet can perform miracles

You cannot prove he rose from the dead (and even if you could, this is not a messianic requirement).

You cannot prove he came in a vision to Paul.

You cannot prove, and again it is unscriptural, that he will come back a second time to do all those things even you acknowledge the Messiah should have done the first time.

Speaking of which....

I'll come back to the question I keep asking Christians:

What did Jesus actually do and what qualified him to be the Messiah that can be proven? He wasn't a King, he did not unite the lost tribes, he brought no peace and he never had any children.

Some of your requests are ridiculous. I can't prove he came to Paul in a vision anymore than you can prove he didn't. (Other than proving it with scriptures which you won't accept.) I can't prove he rose from the dead anymore than you can prove he didn't. I do know there were eye witnesses that said they saw him afterwards. They wrote about it in the New Testament. You just choose not to believe them.

You can't prove the Red Sea was parted. Does that mean it didn't happen?

I have NOT acknowledged the Messiah has to come back to do things he should have done the first time. He did what he was supposed to do. You just don't understand properly, and think he didn't fulfill what he was supposed to do. You are just putting your spin on what he had to accomplish.

The Messiah told the apostles to go first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. There were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. He had gathered people from all the lost tribes. The early church consisted of Jews. His Kingdom is the church. He is the King.

He is my King. Another thing fulfilled from the OT, is that the Gentiles would be his people also. He has brought peace to those of us who accept him. He is going to reign forever as foretold in the OT.

Another thing that qualifies him as Messiah and King, is that he came during the right time frame. (As per Daniel 9:24-27) Also Daniel 2:37-44 lets us know God was going to set up a kingdom during the days of the fourth world kingdom (The Roman Empire). This time period has already gone by, so he has to have already done it. He did exactly what he said he would do. He set up his kingdom (the church) during the time of the Roman Empire.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Well then, according to your misunderstanding of the text, sure. The Hebrew indicates that the Torah (not a new testament) with the same content will change in its being inscribed directly on the heart, not having to be taught from the outside in. Verses 33 and 34 make that explicitly clear, even using the word "Torati" -- my Torah, reinforcing the content as identical.

And verse 36 makes the entire idea that a new text could make the Torah null explicitly impossible unless one wants to delete the existence of the Jewish people.

He said in verse 32 - NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...

In verse 34 he said I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Under the OT, sins were remembered, and atonement had to be made every year. Which by the way, how can you even do? Who is the high priest now?

 

[Rival]

Some of your requests are ridiculous.

Exactly.

Some of your requests are ridiculous. I can't prove he came to Paul in a vision anymore than you can prove he didn't. (Other than proving it with scriptures which you won't accept.) I can't prove he rose from the dead anymore than you can prove he didn't. I do know there were eye witnesses that said they saw him afterwards. They wrote about it in the New Testament. You just choose not to believe them.

Because my faith has reason behind it. What you don't seem to understand is that you believe all these things make Jesus the Messiah. They don't. That's my point. Even if he did all these things, they would not make him what you say he is because none of these things are necessary to be the Messiah. It's also odd how everything Christians claim cannot be proven.

You can't prove the Red Sea was parted. Does that mean it didn't happen?

No, but the parting of the sea has nothing to do with my belief that G-d gave the Torah to Moshe. It's not a foundation of my faith. Your belief in the things I listed are foundations of Christian faith.

I have NOT acknowledged the Messiah has to come back to do things he should have done the first time. He did what he was supposed to do. You just don't understand properly, and think he didn't fulfill what he was supposed to do. You are just putting your spin on what he had to accomplish.

No, he hasn't. I do understand. If anyone is putting a spin on this, it's you. It's the Christians who do not read Hebrew and who do not understand actual Messianic prophecies and how they are supposed to come about. What has changed as a result of Jesus that is not a belief system? What has objectively changed? Absolutely nothing. The world is the way it was. There is no world peace, there is no Messianic Era. In case you haven't noticed, it's not happened yet.

The Messiah told the apostles to go first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. There were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. He had gathered people from all the lost tribes. The early church consisted of Jews. His Kingdom is the church. He is the King.

No. Just no. The lost tribes are the lost tribes of Israel. We will know them and they will be gathered back to Israel as they were before. The tribes of Levi, of Naftali, of Asher and so on. And you accuse me of spin? This is some spin right here. You've completely changed the meaning of the text to fit what you already believe. You can't get around the fact that these Israelite tribes are sill lost, so have to make something up. That's spin.

He is my King. Another thing fulfilled from the OT, is that the Gentiles would be his people also. He has brought peace to those of us who accept him. He is going to reign forever as foretold in the OT.

He was not a king. The text describes a King of Israel as David was a King of Israel. An actual crowned ruler. A person who arbitrates on the Law. A person who brings peace and prosperity. Jesus never was a king. Again, you're using spin.

Another thing that qualifies him as Messiah and King, is that he came during the right time frame. (As per Daniel 9:24-27) Also Daniel 2:37-44 lets us know God was going to set up a kingdom during the days of the fourth world kingdom (The Roman Empire). This time period has already gone by, so he has to have already done it. He did exactly what he said he would do. He set up his kingdom (the church) during the time of the Roman Empire.

This knowledge was sealed from Daniel; it is definitely not open to you.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Exactly.


Because my faith has reason behind it. What you don't seem to understand is that you believe all these things make Jesus the Messiah. They don't. That's my point. Even if he did all these things, they would not make him what you say he is because none of these things are necessary to be the Messiah. It's also odd how everything Christians claim cannot be proven.


No, but the parting of the sea has nothing to do with my belief that G-d gave the Torah to Moshe. It's not a foundation of my faith. Your belief in the things I listed are foundations of Christian faith.


No, he hasn't. I do understand. If anyone is putting a spin on this, it's you. It's the Christians who do not read Hebrew and who do not understand actual Messianic prophecies and how they are supposed to come about. What has changed as a result of Jesus that is not a belief system? What has objectively changed? Absolutely nothing. The world is the way it was. There is no world peace, there is no Messianic Era. In case you haven't noticed, it's not happened yet.


No. Just no. The lost tribes are the lost tribes of Israel. We will know them and they will be gathered back to Israel as they were before. The tribes of Levi, of Naftali, of Asher and so on. And you accuse me of spin? This is some spin right there. You've completely changed the meaning of the text to fit what you already believe. You can't get around the fact that these Israelite tribes are sill lost, so have to make something up. That's spin.


He was not a king. The text describes a King of Israel as David was a King of Israel. An actual crowned ruler. A person who arbitrates on the Law. A person who brings peace and prosperity. Jesus never was a king. Again, you're using spin.


This knowledge was sealed from Daniel; it is definitely not open to you.

How easy for you just to say no, just no. You didn't refute what I said. You just don't believe it.

What Daniel said is true. Don't just ignore it. Believe your scriptures.

 

[rosends]

He said in verse 32 - NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...

No, not "not according" but not like, in nature. The change is made clear in 33: "For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts". So what changed? The content? No. The way it is transmitted. And then 34 clarifies, "And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest,". That's the difference in the new version of the same covenant.

In verse 34 he said I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

We are talking in messianic days, right? That hasn't happened yet. And even then (note that there are 2 types of sin referenced here) God will allow us to be forgiven even for intentional sins, but he won't even take notice of unintentional ones. Under jewish law, intentional and unintentional sin are dealt with very differently.

Under the OT, sins were remembered, and atonement had to be made every year. Which by the way, how can you even do? Who is the high priest now?

Um, we have other methods for atonement, as listed textually. Is this news to you, that the Jewish texts accounted for how to achieve atonement without the temple and the high priest?

 

[Rival]

How easy for you just to say no, just no. You didn't refute what I said. You just don't believe it.

What Daniel said is true. Don't just ignore it. Believe your scriptures.

My beliefs are based on what it says in the Tanakh. If you want messianic verses, here,

2 Shmuel 7:10-13

And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

 

[Rival]

My beliefs are based on what it says in the Tanakh. If you want messianic verses, here,

2 Shmuel 7:10-13

And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

I've posted this list 3 times now and I notice no-one Christian pays it much heed. All I hear is 'These things happened but not in the way you thought.' or 'Next time.' Are there any Christians who accept that The Messiah is going to be a real ruler who will bring real world changes and will really unite the Israelites back in their land? If not, I really don't know what their messiah is for.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

No, not "not according" but not like, in nature. The change is made clear in 33: "For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts". So what changed? The content? No. The way it is transmitted. And then 34 clarifies, "And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest,". That's the difference in the new version of the same covenant.

We are talking in messianic days, right? That hasn't happened yet. And even then (note that there are 2 types of sin referenced here) God will allow us to be forgiven even for intentional sins, but he won't even take notice of unintentional ones. Under jewish law, intentional and unintentional sin are dealt with very differently.

Um, we have other methods for atonement, as listed textually. Is this news to you, that the Jewish texts accounted for how to achieve atonement without the temple and the high priest?

New means different. Just because you say the content doesn't change also, doesn't make it so.

 

[rosends]

New means different. Just because you say the content doesn't change also, doesn't make it so.

The text says the content doesn't change, not me. The text also details what will be different. I quoted the text.

 

[Rival]

The text says the content doesn't change, not me. The text also details what will be different. I quoted the text.

It doesn't matter what Jeremiah says, it matters what the NT says

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I've posted this list 3 times now and I notice no-one Christian pays it much heed. All I hear is 'These things happened but not in the way you thought.' or 'Next time.' Are there any Christians who accept that The Messiah is going to be a real ruler who will bring real world changes and will really unite the Israelites back in their land? If not, I really don't know what their messiah is for.

They are correct - these things happened but not in the way you thought they would. If he is not the Messiah, then who is the Messiah? Because you have missed him. He was supposed to have already come as I pointed out in previous posts. Which point you ignored.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

The text says the content doesn't change, not me. The text also details what will be different. I quoted the text.

Please point out the part where it says the content doesn't change.

 

[Rival]

They are correct - these things happened but not in the way you thought they would. If he is not the Messiah, then who is the Messiah? Because you have missed him. He was supposed to have already come as I pointed out in previous posts. Which point you ignored.

So what you are saying is G-d wasn't clear enough and a group of illiterate fishermen and an itinerant faith healer know better than years upon years of study? That a ragtag bunch of nomads know the interpretations better than those who spent their lives studying it? Saying 'Not in the way you thought' is a cop-out that Christians have been using for 2,000 years and it's old. The Scriptures state pretty clearly what the Messiah will do and since yours didn't you have to retcon it to mean something else.

The Messiah hasn't come yet.