What Do Palestinians Want?

[FearGod]

Oh stop talking around the bush.
I'll do it for you: The evil Zionist should go "back from where they came" and a few Jews will be allowed to stay as a minority under the Muslims.

There was that so difficult?

The Zionists are different than the Jews, maybe they're the lost tribes of Israel who were
fighting the Jews of Juda and known for being wicked compared to the sons of Juda.

 

[Shusha]

I answered your question, the world indeed should spend more in building houses, hospitals for the poor
than spending them on the war machines, yes Gaza is included, tunnels are costing a fortune.

You did not answer my question. My question was: What would happen if Gaza started building houses and hospitals and water infrastructure instead of tunnels? My second question was why Gazans don't already do this. In other words, what attitudes do the Gazan people hold which lead them to build tunnels instead of houses?

 

[Gharib]

And when @Akivah writes ...
... he, too, is expressing attitudes based on his experiences. That does not make the despicable stereotype valid. The fact remains

1. Reporting/analyzing attitudes is not vilification, and vilification was certainly not my intent.
2. It is absolutely true that these attitudes are enabled by day-to-day experience.
3. It is also absolutely true that these attitudes owe much to persistent, virulent, and often antisemitic propaganda.

Of course they have a love of death, have you been there to see how they live. Palestinians celebrate death, anyone who dies standing against Israel and it's occupation is a hero. There is no greater honour than that. And why would there be. Those who were born within the last 5 decades don't know anything other than oppression and suffering from Israel.

It is vilification, not by you, but the writer when he says that when polls are conducted without Israel being an option for something they blame their own leadership, but as soon as Israel is an option they almost always choose it as the reason behind everything. This is deception at it's best because I know for a fact that Palestinians do blame their leadership for many things, but there are far more and greater things which no one is to blame for other than Israel and it's oppression and illegal occupation, add to this the daily harassment, the restriction of movement, debarment from ones land and the many other injustices that they face while a Jew who may commit a crime does not ever face the same punishment.

Give me some examples of your third point please.

 

[Gharib]

I could go on for days about the things I hear about Israel from people I know in my everyday life, but that wouldn't be very fruitful here. I will just say that I don't think the findings in the article are surprising at all.

It also shouldn't surprise anyone that there is widespread anti-Semitism in a region where most of the population consider a book that contains this passage the perfect, eternal word of God:

(Source of translation.)

It seems to me that Islam, at least mainstream Islam, is clearly part of the problem. The religiously inspired concept of an exclusive Jewish holy land is also no less conducive to sectarian conflict than the idea that Jerusalem completely belongs to Muslims.

Take into account two things and the verse you have posted is irrelevant in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

1. All those who suffer under Israeli oppression and illegal occupation are not Muslims.
2. The verse was revealed a very long time ago, firstly look into it's historical context before applying it and secondly, once the first step is done it becomes evident that it is not speaking of every single Jew at all times because I know for a fact by having read @Jayhawker Soule posts on this forum there are Jews who have no animosity towards Muslims simply for being Muslim.

And a look back into history is another example of your statements and accusations being incorrect. After the liberation of Jerusalem from the Crusades, Salahud-din Ayyubi didn't persecute Jews even though that verse was there in that same book at that time. And to think that Muslims hate Jews just for being Jews is willful dishonesty. If Jews had instead opted to live under an already established Palestinian state while fleeing persecution by Nazis rather than force their way into Palestine and oppress it's people, engage in ethnic cleansing and becoming an apartheid state, Muslims, especially those in the region would not have any hate towards Jews.

And before I forget, when Jews where fleeing persecution in Europe, many of them passed through Bosnia, Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo etc, where all the mentioned countries have a population whose majority are Muslims.

But if you think it's OK for Syrian refugees to now become equipped with heavy weaponry, including land, sea and air and they decide to now take over some other country with an inferior defense system, could you blame anyone for hating them?

 

[Flankerl]

The Zionists are different than the Jews, maybe they're the lost tribes of Israel who were
fighting the Jews of Juda and known for being wicked compared to the sons of Juda.

That is so unbelievable stupid that I don't know what to answer.


Oh well nothing new from the resident Muslims of RF.
As always nothing but conspiracy theories and basic lunacy.

I am just glad that there aren't any Jews left in your countries to lash out against every Friday after prayer.

 

[Tumah]

You can see stabbing everyday, you gave me a feeling that it's the holocaust.
Polling and research is to you a fact of what kind of people the millions of the Palestinians are !

Yes, that's exactly the purpose of a poll. To gain an understanding of a general population too big to ask individually.

People, broad brush

Yes, people. They come from a cross-section of Palestinian society, and according to the article, they're opinions are widely held.

I understood very well your silly comments, if one Palestinian stabbed a soldier then all the people
of Palestine are stabbers, your comment doesn't need a translator as it's a silly one.

If one Palestinian stabs a soldier and the Palestinians throw a party for the guy and name a street after him, then yes, Palestinian society as a whole becomes complicit in the actual stabbing by virtue of their encouragement.

Again a broad brush.

I think you are just repeating arguments that people have made to you. If you have some time, try to learn about what a poll does and how it works. You'll see that my arguments make a bit more sense than.

 

[Shusha]

... If Jews had instead opted to live under an already established Palestinian state ... Muslims, especially those in the region would not have any hate towards Jews.

IOW, if Jews would just give up this silly idea of having their own self-determination ... then Muslims wouldn't hate them and try to kill them so much.

 

[Gharib]

Your FACTS are Falsehoods

Right, and your counter proof is astonishing.

1. Israel supports a two state solution: That has been official Israeli policy since before the State was re-established. If you do not believe me go to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs site and read for yourself.

Nope, Israel never has and never will support a Palestinian state. Netanyahu said so himself during the last elections.

What you call "settlements" are housing developments built by private people on land they own or lease. All of them,are built on land which is legally Israel. (Please read the treaties and agreements). The "settlements" should be an aid to reaching a political setlement. If the Arab Palestinians actually felt that they were "losing land" they would rush to the negotiation table. As they have been avoiding negotiations they obviously do not see the "settlements" as a problem. Further, it is a racist position that Jews can not live in any portion of any future Arab Palestinian State. Therefore, it is racist to suggest that the settlements - where both Jews and Arabs live - can not be part of a future Arab Palestinian State.

Ah my bad, speaking the truth against Israel is racist now, anti-semitic I presume. Or maybe a capital offence. Although by right all of what is Israel is illegal land confiscation, even by the UN's 1967 borders Israel is continuously building illegal settlements on Palestinian land. And, there is no negotiation exactly for that reason, that Israel is full of hypocrisy, on one side it calls for negotiations on the other hand it keeps taking Palestinian land illegally.

If Jews were willing to live under Palestinian rule, why does Israel exist on what is/was Palestine???

2. Israel is not "taking advantage" of the violence which has "arisen". It is reacting to a planned program of terrorism encouraged, promoted, and directed by the PA and other Arab Palestinian groups.

False. The article posted in the OP says these acts of violence are a result of 'lone wolf' acts. So no the PA or Hammas or anyone else is not telling people to do this.

Israel is seeking to protect its citizens and others from attack by terrorists. It is standard police procedure throughout the world to neutralize an assailant. Israel, however, does NOT have a shoot to kill policy. (US and EU police departments do). A person who attacks another with a knife is intent on killing them. It is shameful for you to pretend otherwise. It is shameful that you support murder of civilians.

So who exactly do you think is committing terrorism? Yes to neutralize an assailant, that's why B'Tselem is asking why those who posed no threat after an attack were then killed?? In what way was the Eritrean man a threat for the Israeli terrorists to shoot him dead? Was it his dark skin colour that posed a threat or was it the weapon that he wasn't carrying a threat because as far as the world knows, he wasn't even involved in the attack in October. This is nothing but hypocrisy on your side.

3. There is no "Palestine". and never had been.

And you wonder why Palestinians and a lot of other people around the world hate Israel and blame it for everything. You see, the reason behind there being no Palestinian state is due to Israel not ever wanting Palestinians to have one. So really, your first point and this one contradict each other.

The Arab Palestinians can and do export their products around the world.

Absolute rubbish and complete dishonesty sugarcoated with complete hypocrisy. What product do Palestinians export and to which country?

They are not permitted in Area A because the PA refueses them entry. The discrimination is all by the Arab Palestinians.

Of course. Why doesn't Israel allow Palestinians from the Old city, those from the WB and from Gazza to enter Israel unless they either have been issued a work permit by an Israeli employer or a residency permit by Israel .

Now, can we discuss what the Arab Palestinians want? You know, the total destruction of the State of Israel and the genocide of the Jewish people. If you doubt that, just read the Hamas charter.

Oh you mean Palestinians want to do to Israel and Jews what Israel is doing to Palestine and it's people. Sounds quite fair to me. Does it not?

 

[Gharib]

IOW, if Jews would just give up this silly idea of having their own self-determination ... then Muslims wouldn't hate them and try to kill them so much.

I think all people should have a land to call it their home. But the course of action Jews took about 6 decades ago is nothing but pure terrorism. If self-determination is so important for one group of people, why isn't it so for another group of people? The aspiration for self-determination while depriving someone else form the same right is hypocrisy and terrorism.

 

[Shusha]

I think all people should have a land to call it their home. But the course of action Jews took about 6 decades ago is nothing but pure terrorism. If self-determination is so important for one group of people, why isn't it so for another group of people? The aspiration for self-determination while depriving someone else form the same right is hypocrisy and terrorism.

Gharib, a few posts above you said: "If Jews had instead opted to live under an already established Palestinian state while fleeing persecution by Nazis rather than force their way into Palestine and oppress it's people, engage in ethnic cleansing and becoming an apartheid state, Muslims, especially those in the region would not have any hate towards Jews." Now you say: "I think all people should have a land to call it there home".

So which is it? Do the Jewish people have or have not the right to a national homeland? If you believe they do, I would suggest you frame your arguments as though they do.

Second, Israel became a nation in exactly the same way, through the same treaties and legal instruments, that Syria and Lebanon and Iraq and Turkey and Jordan did. Are Syria and Lebanon and Iraq and Turkey and Jordan legitimate countries? If so, then Israel is also a legitimate country. It wasn't created through terrorism. War broke out because the Arabs decided that it would not accept Jewish national self-determination. The cause of the war was not the actions of the Jewish people. It was Arab aggression against one of six States created at that time.

But again, this highlights the accuracy of the OP article in that the narrative and the attitudes shape the conflict.

 

[Shusha]

Although by right all of what is Israel is illegal land confiscation, even by the UN's 1967 borders Israel is continuously building illegal settlements on Palestinian land.

All of Israel is illegal land confiscation? Is that what you meant to say? You are back to saying that the Jewish people have no rights to national self-determination.

There are no 1967 borders. No such thing exists in law. There are 1949 armistice lines. The treaty that demarks these lines specifically says that they are not borders and that the borders must be negotiated as does every single other treaty and UN Resolution. The idea that all the land on one side of the border is "Palestinian land" is factually incorrect.

When the borders are negotiated and a Palestinian State comes into being, should Jewish people be permitted to live in Palestine?

What product do Palestinians export and to which country?

Palestinian exports.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Second, Israel became a nation in exactly the same way, through the same treaties and legal instruments, that Syria and Lebanon and Iraq and Turkey and Jordan did. Are Syria and Lebanon and Iraq and Turkey and Jordan legitimate countries? If so, then Israel is also a legitimate country. It wasn't created through terrorism. War broke out because the Arabs decided that it would not accept Jewish national self-determination. The cause of the war was not the actions of the Jewish people. It was Arab aggression against one of six States created at that time.

@Shusha , history is far more complicated and far more nuanced than the feel-good narrative you seem to embrace. I would encourage you to read, and internalize, ...

• Demographic history of Palestine, and
• Zionist political violence.

... and, of course, I continue to urge you to read the Howard Sachar history of Zionism. And please note: I say this as a Zionist.

 

[Shusha]

@Shusha , history is far more complicated and far more nuanced than the feel-good narrative you seem to embrace. I would encourage you to read, and internalize, ...

• Demographic history of Palestine, and
• Zionist political violence.

... and, of course, I continue to urge you to read the Howard Sachar history of Zionism. And please note: I say this as a Zionist.

Again, I assure you I am well-read on the subject. Instead of making suggestions for reading material on subjects I am fully familiar with, why don't you engage me in dialogue. I believe I asked you a few questions some pages back.

Of course history is more nuanced than I can write in a few sentences. But from a LEGAL standpoint, my post is entirely accurate. And, as your link confirms, the Jewish response to Arab aggression is just that -- a Jewish response.

 

[Akivah]

If Jews had instead opted to live under an already established Palestinian state while fleeing persecution by Nazis ...

What "already established palestinian" state?? There has never been a palestinian state at any time in history.

 

[RocketJSquirell]

GAHRIB

I do not know what your source of "information" is, but your statements are not truthful and are unsupported ( and unsupportable)

Here is the official position of the Israelis government. Hint you know it is the Israeli position because it comes directly from the Israeli government website.

. . .
The future Palestinian state cannot be a terrorist entity. For this reason, the international community has insisted that the path to Palestinian statehood must follow acceptance of the conditions outlined by the international 'Quartet' (the UN, EU, US and Russia), including the renunciation of terrorism, acceptance of previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements and the recognition of Israel's right to exist.
. . .
In June 2009, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu presented his vision of peace with the Palestinians based on the principles of recognition and demilitarization: "In my vision of peace, in this small land of ours, two peoples live freely, side-by-side, in amity and mutual respect. Each will have its own flag, its own national anthem, its own government... A fundamental prerequisite for ending the conflict is a public, binding and unequivocal Palestinian recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. The territory under Palestinian control must be demilitarized with ironclad security provisions for Israel. Without these two conditions, there is a real danger that an armed Palestinian state would emerge that would become another terrorist base against the Jewish state, such as the one in Gaza." He called on the Arab countries "to cooperate with the Palestinians and with us to advance an economic peace. An economic peace is not a substitute for a political peace, but an important element to achieving it."
. . .

http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Peace/Guide/Pages/Israel-Palestinian Negotiations.aspx

Please look around the site for more fascinating truth.


The rest of your post is merely hate speech and not worthy of a response.

 

[RocketJSquirell]

his article was written by an Arab intellectual named Fred Maroun and it pretty much lays out the problems with the Arab Palestinian argument.
I am only quoting select paragraphs, so please take the time to read the actual article.

Occupied by choice: why I do not support the Palestinian cause

. . .
Unfortunately, without a solid agreement with the Palestinians on security, Israel cannot end the occupation. Israel cannot afford to have its main airport and its largest cities within a few kilometers of terrorist rocket launchers, because this would destroy its economy.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians chose to become occupied and they choose to remain occupied. It is hard to believe, but the evidence is overwhelming:

The UN partition plan of 1947 provided a Palestinian state that included some Jews with a vast majority of Arabs. It also had a Jewish state that included mostly Jews with a large minority of Arabs. Palestinians could have had their own state, and they would still have had considerable influence in the Jewish state. There was no need for anyone to be displaced. There was no need for the “nakba”. The “nakba”, like the occupation, was a Palestinian choice.
After the 1947/1948 war, during which Jews were ethnically cleansed from East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza, those territories had only non-Jewish residents. Jordan controlled the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt controlled Gaza. The Palestinians had 19 years, from 1948 to 1967, to create a Jew-free Palestinian state.
In July 2000, at the Camp David Summit, Israel’s Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians a state that included Gaza, the West Bank (with some borders swaps), and East Jerusalem.
In September 2005, Israel completed an evacuation of its settlements and its soldiers from Gaza, giving Palestinians the opportunity to demonstrate their ability to run a state by living in peace in Gaza and developing its economy.
In September 2008, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered the Palestinians a state along the same lines as the one offered by Barak in July 2000.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has, over several years, stated and restated his willingness to negotiate a two-state solution without any pre-conditions, most recently in September 2015.
For each and every one of these opportunities, the Palestinian response was an unequivocal “No”.

By being occupied, the Palestinians obtain many of the benefits that they would not have otherwise:

They have no need to act responsibly in running a state.
They get sympathy for their cause while Israel is vilified for being the occupier.
They receive extensive financial and other forms of humanitarian aid, not only from the West but also from Israel.
They maintain the faint hope that Jewish sovereignty can be eliminated from the Middle East and that Jews can be forced to flee for their lives.
They are judged by a far lower standard than Israel because, in addition to being Arabs (who are the recipients of a bigotry of low expectations), they are also an occupied people.
Of course, the Palestinians had plausible excuses for every time they said no to their own state, but it is clear that having their own state was never a priority for them. Their priority was, in every case, the refusal to accept a Jewish state of any form or any size.

So the Palestinians remain an occupied people, by choice. They choose to be controlled by Israel. They choose to not have freedom and dignity. They choose to live with Israeli checkpoints. They choose to depend on Israeli aid and international charity. They choose to remain the world’s most celebrated cause.

Every day since November 29, 1947, exactly 68 years ago, the Palestinians chose hate, terrorism, and dependence over statehood and independence. They continue to do so today.
. . .
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/occu...28_798155223629802_798155223629802#f27c453878

 

[RocketJSquirell]

Fear God

No. All Jews are Zionsits. Not all Zionists are Jews. Zionism began when Judaism began - when G-d told Avraham Avienu (Abraham our father) "Lech L'cha" "Go to the land that I will show you. Israel has been the home and homeland of the Jewish people ever since and has been inhabited by Jews ever since.

Zionism is the Jewish national movement of rebirth and renewal in the land of Israel - the historical birthplace of the Jewish people. The yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the Land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been the cornerstone of Jewish religious life since the Jewish exile from the land two thousand years ago, and is embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture.

Modern Zionism emerged in the late 19th century in response to the violent persecution of Jews in Eastern Europe, anti-Semitism in Western Europe. Modern Zionism fused the ancient Jewish biblical and historical ties to and yearning for renewal for the ancestral homeland (religious Zionism) with the modern concept of nationalism into a vision of establishing a modern Jewish state in the land of Israel.

The "father" of modern Zionism, Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl, consolidated various strands of Zionist thought into an organized political movement, advocating for international recognition of a "Jewish state" and encouraging Jewish immigration to build the land.

Today, decades after the actual founding of a Jewish state, Zionism continues to be the guiding nationalist movement of the majority of Jews around the world who believe in, support and identify with the State of Israel. Zionism, the national aspiration of the Jewish people to a homeland, is to the Jewish people what the liberation movements of Africa and Asia have been to their peoples.

History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through such a homeland. The re-establishment of Jewish independence in Israel, after centuries of struggle to overcome foreign conquest and exile, is a vindication of the fundamental concepts of the equality of nations and of self-determination. To question the Jewish people's right to national existence and freedom is not only to deny to the Jewish people the right accorded to every other people on this globe, but it is also to deny the central precepts of the United Nations.

Modern Zionism is the only national movement which from its founding insisted on the preservation of religious, cultural, economic, etc... freedoms of minorities and equality under law.

Just thought you should know.

 

[FearGod]

Fear God

No. All Jews are Zionsits. Not all Zionists are Jews. Zionism began when Judaism began - when G-d told Avraham Avienu (Abraham our father) "Lech L'cha" "Go to the land that I will show you. Israel has been the home and homeland of the Jewish people ever since and has been inhabited by Jews ever since.

Zionism is the Jewish national movement of rebirth and renewal in the land of Israel - the historical birthplace of the Jewish people. The yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the Land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been the cornerstone of Jewish religious life since the Jewish exile from the land two thousand years ago, and is embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture.

Modern Zionism emerged in the late 19th century in response to the violent persecution of Jews in Eastern Europe, anti-Semitism in Western Europe. Modern Zionism fused the ancient Jewish biblical and historical ties to and yearning for renewal for the ancestral homeland (religious Zionism) with the modern concept of nationalism into a vision of establishing a modern Jewish state in the land of Israel.

The "father" of modern Zionism, Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl, consolidated various strands of Zionist thought into an organized political movement, advocating for international recognition of a "Jewish state" and encouraging Jewish immigration to build the land.

Today, decades after the actual founding of a Jewish state, Zionism continues to be the guiding nationalist movement of the majority of Jews around the world who believe in, support and identify with the State of Israel. Zionism, the national aspiration of the Jewish people to a homeland, is to the Jewish people what the liberation movements of Africa and Asia have been to their peoples.

History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through such a homeland. The re-establishment of Jewish independence in Israel, after centuries of struggle to overcome foreign conquest and exile, is a vindication of the fundamental concepts of the equality of nations and of self-determination. To question the Jewish people's right to national existence and freedom is not only to deny to the Jewish people the right accorded to every other people on this globe, but it is also to deny the central precepts of the United Nations.

Modern Zionism is the only national movement which from its founding insisted on the preservation of religious, cultural, economic, etc... freedoms of minorities and equality under law.

Just thought you should know.

And do you justify this movement to bring all Jews from all parts of the world to Palestine
because of Abraham.

 

[RocketJSquirell]

Feargod

Jews are returning to Israel - not the non-existent "Palestine". There are many reasons for Jews to return to their homeland. 1. religious 2. historical ties (Jews have always lived in Israel. It is the actual homeland of the Jewish people. It is the homeland of no other extant people) 3. cultural 4. familial (family re-unification) 5. to escape persecution (I trust you realize that this goes on in many places around the world) 6. to be a free people in their own land 7. because it is the Jewish homeland etc...

There is no reason Jews should not be able to return to Israel. At least there are no reasons why Jews should not be able to return to their homeland which are not based in racism, hatred and bigotry.

 

[FearGod]

Feargod

Jews are returning to Israel - not the non-existent "Palestine". There are many reasons for Jews to return to their homeland. 1. religious 2. historical ties (Jews have always lived in Israel. It is the actual homeland of the Jewish people. It is the homeland of no other extant people) 3. cultural 4. familial (family re-unification) 5. to escape persecution (I trust you realize that this goes on in many places around the world) 6. to be a free people in their own land 7. because it is the Jewish homeland etc...

There is no reason Jews should not be able to return to Israel. At least there are no reasons why Jews should not be able to return to their homeland which are not based in racism, hatred and bigotry.

Aha, it's reserved for the Jews and now they decided to return back.
The Palestinians then should search for their origins and kick the recent people
from their lands.