What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[TashaN]

Hi guys, i think this thread is getting off-topic because of the Wahabism thing, so i would like to invite all of you to join me in a vivid and productive discussion in this thread in the link below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/56677-things-you-do-not-know-about.html

Please don't miss it!

 

[Smoke]

It sounds like you're been reading detractors as opposed to more objective scholarly works.

I've not run across any such comments about him from the objective sources.

Certainly he decried the Sufis for their belief that they were not bound the the ordinances of Islam, but that's hardly unique or bloody. Mystics frequently claim they are above such things as ordinances, and other religious leaders condemn the idea that anyone is above ordinances. So it goes.

It's true that the most famous massacres occurred after ibn al-Wahhab died, and were carried out under his son's leadership. But already during his lifetime, a policy was in place that Wahhabis would try to eradicate all other forms of Islam by force -- that is, they would eradicate what I would call other forms of Islam; to a Wahhabi, a Shiite or a Sufi was not a Muslim at all; indeed, neither were non-Wahhabi Sunnis. Because the Shiites were considered non-Muslims, there was little if any restriction on the violence that could be committed against them.

It's not for nothing that Bernard Lewis, in attempting to defend Orthodox Islam, has compared the Wahhabis to the Nazis and the Klan and claimed that they are an aberration that is unrepresentative of Islam as a whole.

 

[TashaN]

It's true that the most famous massacres occurred after ibn al-Wahhab died, and were carried out under his son's leadership. But already during his lifetime, a policy was in place that Wahhabis would try to eradicate all other forms of Islam by force -- that is, they would eradicate what I would call other forms of Islam; to a Wahhabi, a Shiite or a Sufi was not a Muslim at all; indeed, neither were non-Wahhabi Sunnis. Because the Shiites were considered non-Muslims, there was little if any restriction on the violence that could be committed against them.

It's not for nothing that Bernard Lewis, in attempting to defend Orthodox Islam, has compared the Wahhabis to the Nazis and the Klan and claimed that they are an aberration that is unrepresentative of Islam as a whole.

Drivel.

 

[Smoke]

Drivel.

Don't worry; nobody expects you to admit the truth about Wahhabism, and you'll find many here who will conspire with you to deny the truth, simply because it pains them to believe such ugly facts.

 

[TashaN]

Don't worry; nobody expects you to admit the truth about Wahhabism, and you'll find many here who will conspire with you to deny the truth, simply because it pains them to believe such ugly facts.

lol, that's why you can't face me with a decent argument with sources in my new thread about Wahabism?

Everybody knows that you are just bluffing and you can't back up your claims no matter how i challenge you!

 

[Don Penguinoini]

OOOhhh, tough words from a tough man...

Will MidnightBlue reply or run? find out tommorow maybe..

 

[Smoke]

lol, that's why you can't face me with a decent argument with sources in my new thread about Wahabism?

Everybody knows that you are just bluffing and you can't back up your claims no matter how i challenge you!

I'll meet you over there.

 

[Scott1]

How is this different to all the Christian denominations?

That was my point.... I'm Roman Catholic.... all of the different Protestant denominations and general lack of leadership/unity/etc. are similar in nature to Islam. Without tools for unity like the Papacy/Church councils, it does not seem that Islam will ever be unified as one faith.

Shi'as, Sunnis and the rare non-denominational Muslims all go together in the same Mosque despite their differences. Can the same be said for all Christians?

That is quite beautiful..... I read a story once about the pilgramage to Mecca (the Haadj??) and was blown away at how wonderful it seemed.... just a sea of Muslims dressing the same, all getting along.... very powerful.... I wish it was like that everywhere.

.... and do Shia and Sunni actually go to the same Mosque ALL the time? I find that quite odd... why do they fight then?

I mean, look at Northern Ireland! Isn't that not showing unity between Catholics and Protestants?

.... again, hope you understand my point that this is wrong... and I do pray that one day all of Christianity will come home to the one true Church, but that's just not possible in Islam.

Peace,
S

 

[Popeyesays]

I don't think there is hope for unity for Islam or Christianity in the future the gulfs are too wide in both instances. There may be fewer splinters in Islam but they are rooted very deeply--at the deathbed of Muhammed. The Christian splinters are more but not so deep.

Put frankly the revelation of both is too diffuse to allow them to find common ground within their own faiths at this point. Unity was not the real message of Christ or Muhammed.

Christ did not deal with presenting His revelation as monolithic. Muhammed did not worry about unity beyond the confines of His own immediate people. It isn't Their fault. They revealed what God bade Them reveal.

Neither revelation could encompass the world asthat was not within the capabilities of human civilization at the time.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

I don't think there is hope for unity for Islam or Christianity in the future the gulfs are too wide in both instances. There may be fewer splinters in Islam but they are rooted very deeply--at the deathbed of Muhammed. The Christian splinters are more but not so deep.

Put frankly the revelation of both is too diffuse to allow them to find common ground within their own faiths at this point. Unity was not the real message of Christ or Muhammed.

Christ did not deal with presenting His revelation as monolithic. Muhammed did not worry about unity beyond the confines of His own immediate people. It isn't Their fault. They revealed what God bade Them reveal.

Neither revelation could encompass the world asthat was not within the capabilities of human civilization at the time.

Regards,
Scott

What do you mean when you say "unity"?

If you mean to let all religions on earth to melt into one cup and be Baha'is then it's a no no.

But if you mean the unity in term of living in peace with each other then this is what all the prophets of God were calling for.

 

[love]

It's not for nothing that Bernard Lewis, in attempting to defend Orthodox Islam, has compared the Wahhabis to the Nazis and the Klan and claimed that they are an aberration that is unrepresentative of Islam as a whole.

I was born and raised in the South. I am 55 years old. I have seen discrimination. The Klan is a dark spot on America. But it was exposed for what it was.
It was a sad example of group mentality using a fiery Cross to back them up and thinking they were "good Christians".

 

[mcteethinator]

That was my point.... I'm Roman Catholic.... all of the different Protestant denominations and general lack of leadership/unity/etc. are similar in nature to Islam. Without tools for unity like the Papacy/Church councils, it does not seem that Islam will ever be unified as one faith.

That is quite beautiful..... I read a story once about the pilgramage to Mecca (the Haadj??) and was blown away at how wonderful it seemed.... just a sea of Muslims dressing the same, all getting along.... very powerful.... I wish it was like that everywhere.

.... and do Shia and Sunni actually go to the same Mosque ALL the time? I find that quite odd... why do they fight then?

.... again, hope you understand my point that this is wrong... and I do pray that one day all of Christianity will come home to the one true Church, but that's just not possible in Islam.

Peace,
S

I personally feel a Vatican-type thing would be bad, but I know Shias have a hierarchy like Catholics, or at least have a more formal hierarchy then Sunnis do. I believe the Ismaili Shias have an equivalent of a Pope, who lives in Switzerland.

I just realized though...
Replace Christianity with Islam, Catholicism (And Orthodox, actually) with Shi'ism, Protestantism with Sunnism, Northern Ireland with Iraq and have the former group be outnumbered by the latter group instead of the other way around and I think there's not much different between our two situations.

I'm not really sure about the Shia/Sunni Mosques in Iraq, I've never actually thought about that... I think some areas are Shia and they have a "de jure" non-denominational Mosque and vice versa? But with most Mosques in other countries, they are strictly non-denominational.

 

[vandervalley]

I have a question.

Muslims say they dont worship idols but why are they worshipping holy cities 5 times a day; doesnt that make holy city the BIGGEST man-made idol on earth?

 

[TashaN]

I have a question.

Muslims say they dont worship idols but why are they worshipping holy cities 5 times a day; doesnt that make holy city the BIGGEST man-made idol on earth?

It's just the direction of the prayer which is the symbol of unity for all the Muslims. For more information about Qibla you can check this link:

Qibla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[vandervalley]

It's just the direction of the prayer which is the symbol of unity for all the Muslims. For more information about Qibla you can check this link:

ok..I thank you for the link.

But what about the holy city of Karbala and the mosque with a golden dome in Iraq ? It was treated as an idol and when it was destroyed Muslims in Iraq started killing each other. Now thats one way to worship an idol

 

[Popeyesays]

Karbila is a Holy City to Shi'ites because of the shrines related to the Imams. It's a place of visitation and an object of pilgrimage not an idol.The Qiblih is a fixed point. Lots of folks think Muslims face east to pray. Actually Muslims in Indonesia would face WNW. It's the Qiblih that is the focus not the direction.

Regards,
Scott

 

[vandervalley]

Ok..I have another example.

I heard that in Jerusalam Muslims built a mosque with a golden dome over a place where it's believed that mohammed ascented to heaven.

Now Muslims treated it as a holy site. So isn't this like idol worshipping? The difference being that in islam an idol could be a a piece of land, a mosque or a city.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Idolatry is when you worship something and think it is God or give it the attributes of God. Sometimes muslims can show much exuberance over a place, and although some who call themselves muslim may actually take a place as an idol of some sort, that is not indicative of what muslims really fell about a place. Like I would love to go to Mecca and visit the grave of the Prophet, but I do not worship the Prophet nor Mecca nor the Ka'ba. I do not pray to these things. When we pray in a certain direction we are not praying to the direction, nor the Mecca nor to kabah, we are praying to Allah, and only this is a sign of unity to muslims to assist in bringing our hearts together and foster a sense of togetherness.


Often the shi'ites do take shrines of different places and people and things. Like many of them make prayers to Hussain (ra). This is shirk/polytheism/idol worship, and those engaged in it have ceased to be muslim because a muslim is the most guarded against any shirk. To take a shrine of a place and worship the inhabitants of a grave in that place and all those sort of things are forms of shirk. So if you go looking at what alot of shiites do, you're likely to find that sort of thing. However Islam speaks the most vehemently against all forms of shirk great or small.

 

[vandervalley]

So what is Islam's view on vegetarianism?

 

[jamaesi]

So what is Islam's view on vegetarianism?

Depends. There's not a push for vegetarian as you aren't to make the what is halal (permissible) into haraam (forbidden). As we allowed to eat meat (as long as it was raised and slaughtered in a halal fashion) eating meat is permissible.

But, there's what I personally use to back my vegetarianism is that in Islam, all creatures are creatures of G-d, from ants to humans. We are required to show compassion to all creatures. We aren't to cause undue suffering to anything.

I can survive quite well and healthily without meat- to slaughter something, no matter how quick and painless the method is, it causes suffering. There is no way I would ever consider most modern/factory farming practices compassionate and not causing undue suffering.