What do you feel is wrong with Islam?

[Doodah]

I'm sorry - but what IS NOT WRONG with Islam should have been the title.


iSLAM is basically a bigoted and violent set of fallacious nonsense written by a 30 something guy (mohammed (may he rest in peace)) who thought it was fine to have forceful carnal relations with a minor(and yes I know that was considered ok in those times...its just that if you were laying down a so-called religious text for 1000's years in the future you would be a little cleaner)

Not that Islam is any worse than much 'christians' after all The pope/s have been personally responsible for more deaths than Saddam(or Bush if you like), still clinging to the (condom=evil) nonsense.

No, YmirGF has laid it out pretty well, but I expect nothing much of note from yet another brainwashee.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm sorry - but what IS NOT WRONG with Islam should have been the title.

iSLAM is basically a bigoted and violent set of fallacious nonsense ...

Speaking of "bigoted ... fallacious nonsense" ...

 

[Quoth The Raven]

I'm sorry - but what IS NOT WRONG with Islam should have been the title.


iSLAM is basically a bigoted and violent set of fallacious nonsense written by a 30 something guy (mohammed (may he rest in peace)) who thought it was fine to have forceful carnal relations with a minor(and yes I know that was considered ok in those times...its just that if you were laying down a so-called religious text for 1000's years in the future you would be a little cleaner)

Not that Islam is any worse than much 'christians' after all The pope/s have been personally responsible for more deaths than Saddam(or Bush if you like), still clinging to the (condom=evil) nonsense.

No, YmirGF has laid it out pretty well, but I expect nothing much of note from yet another brainwashee.

Um, where do you get the 'forceful carnal relations' bit? :sarcastic All there is any proof of - to the best of my knowledge - is that he married her. Marriage doesn't even equal consentual sex, let alone rape of a minor.
If you're privy to some actual factual information rather than just jumping on the Mohammed is a paedophile bandwagon, please feel free to share a source.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm sorry - but what IS NOT WRONG with Islam should have been the title.


iSLAM is basically a bigoted and violent set of fallacious nonsense written by a 30 something guy (mohammed (may he rest in peace)) who thought it was fine to have forceful carnal relations with a minor(and yes I know that was considered ok in those times...its just that if you were laying down a so-called religious text for 1000's years in the future you would be a little cleaner)

Not that Islam is any worse than much 'christians' after all The pope/s have been personally responsible for more deaths than Saddam(or Bush if you like), still clinging to the (condom=evil) nonsense.

No, YmirGF has laid it out pretty well, but I expect nothing much of note from yet another brainwashee.

Nonsense. Bunk and rhetoric.

 

[Popeyesays]

. . . but I expect nothing much of note from yet another brainwashee.

Other than yourself?

Regards,

Scott

 

[McBell]

Um, where do you get the 'forceful carnal relations' bit? :sarcastic All there is any proof of - to the best of my knowledge - is that he married her. Marriage doesn't even equal consensual sex, let alone rape of a minor.
If you're privy to some actual factual information rather than just jumping on the Mohammad is a pedophile bandwagon, please feel free to share a source.

I have to agree.
Other than anti-Islam sites, I am unable to find anything that says Mohammad had sexual relations with her during her 'minor' years.

 

[YmirGF]

No, YmirGF has laid it out pretty well, but I expect nothing much of note from yet another brainwashee.

Thanks for trying to assassinate the dialogue between Mujahid Mohammed and myself with your ill-considered coments. I have a good deal of respect for Mujahid Mohammed and I wish you would attempt to converse in an intelligent manner or remain silent. Thank you.

"Tactical to bridge. Tactical to bridge. Do you copy? Over"
"Bridge to tactical. Yes, we copy. What is your status. Over."
"Target has been aquired and we await further instructions, sir."
"Very good. Remain at the ready and hold your fire unless provoked. Do you copy?"
"10-4, Captain. Tactical out!"

 

[K.Venugopal]

Bismillah-hir-Rehman-ir-Rahim (In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful)
Please post your questions or misconceptions you have about Islam. I will Inshallah (which means hopefully) try to clarify. You can also try to prove to me a single thing in Islam which is bad. A single thing. I am just asking for one.

I must congratulate you on your self-confidence in your mastery of Islam so as to be ready to answer any question about Islam.

One thing in Islam that is bad is its claim that it alone is the true religion.

Will you prove to me a single thing in Islam that is good which has not been said before elsewhere? A single thing.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Well thank your for your edifying and exhaustive effort in answering my question. My misconception is now all cleared up. So a natural thing, even found practiced by animals in the wild, is "unnatural lust". Brilliant. Thank you for clarifying this. Do you have anything to support your esteemed opinion or am I just supposed to take your word.

My religion says that homosexuality is a perfectly normal practice and that in no way is the homosexual inferior or superior to his fellow human animals. Just in case you are interested, my religion is also called Reality.

Nothing wrong in Islam?

How about these little gems.

1. Authorizing the brutal beheading or cutting off of hands or feet of a trangressor.
2. Causing the believer to love the Prophet more than a mother loves her children.
3, Causing a mother to sadly state that she wished she had more sons to offer up to the cause of Martyrdom.
4. Creating an atmosphere of oppression that stunts the growth of Muslim nations.
5. Allowing the follower to take up arms to defend their religion at the slightest provocation.
6. Allowing the continuing practice of female circumcision to go on. (I realize that this is a cultural issue but oddly enough it seems to exist in ONLY Muslim countries.)
7. By allowing a man to beat his wife even if it is only with a pencil thin branch.
8. The continued oppression of their women under the thumb of a male dominated society. (It may have allowed for minor liberating moves 1400 years ago, but Islam has simply not kept up with the times and is now considered quite backward in this regard.)
9. The blatant intolerance of other religions within Muslim countries regardless of what the Qur'an has to say on the matter. (Saudi Arablia is a pristine example or if you are very masochistic you could try being a Baha'i in Iran... etc)
10. The fostering of ignorance amoungst the masses by destroying schools designed specifically to help educate them (Afghanistan for example through the brilliant work of the god fearing Taliban.)
11. The endless provocation of the State of Israel for no other reason than the perception that Israel has no right to exist, which impacts directly on the Palestinian people.
12. The virtual silence from Muslims concerning the abuses that are ongoing in Darfur where Muslims are killing other Muslims over the colour of their skin.

I could add to the list indefinately. If you need anything more, feel free to ask and I will actually sit down and give it some thought. That dozen was just off the top of my head. Keep on point and good luck --- you are going to need it.

ISLAM is the direct cause of all of these things and you have the temerity to imply that there is nothing wrong in Islam? Methinks that someone is in need of a reality check... and it isn't me.

Come on Ymir! They are still perfect!

 

[Ori]

Fundamentalism, but that could be said of many religions.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I'm sorry - but what IS NOT WRONG with Islam should have been the title.

Thanks for trying to assassinate the dialogue between Mujahid Mohammed and myself with your ill-considered coments. I have a good deal of respect for Mujahid Mohammed and I wish you would attempt to converse in an intelligent manner or remain silent. Thank you.

"Tactical to bridge. Tactical to bridge. Do you copy? Over"
"Bridge to tactical. Yes, we copy. What is your status. Over."
"Target has been aquired and we await further instructions, sir."
"Very good. Remain at the ready and hold your fire unless provoked. Do you copy?"
"10-4, Captain. Tactical out!"

Thank you. It's so wonderful to see you all step in to silence the ignorance of certain people.

 

[Doodah]

Um, where do you get the 'forceful carnal relations' bit? :sarcastic All there is any proof of - to the best of my knowledge - is that he married her. Marriage doesn't even equal consentual sex, let alone rape of a minor.
If you're privy to some actual factual information rather than just jumping on the Mohammed is a paedophile bandwagon, please feel free to share a source.

I am sure such a young girl was freely willing. Same thing as some child molesters say still today... "She was freely willing"
I appreciate it was more of a cultural norm back then, but it is either right or wrong "In the eyes of allah" - And if it is as wrong now as we believe it is, then it was wrong then. Or has allah changed its mind?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I am sure such a young girl was freely willing. Same thing as some child molesters say still today... "She was freely willing"
I appreciate it was more of a cultural norm back then, but it is either right or wrong "In the eyes of allah" - And if it is as wrong now as we believe it is, then it was wrong then. Or has allah changed its mind?

Have you researched the history to satify your curiosity? You agree is was a cultural nor correct? A lot of tribes outside of Judaism, Islam still practice the tradition of giving a bride into marriage at a young age.

This is no different than in the Jewish religion, back then......women were betrothed at an early age. The mortality rate was really high so I'm quite sure marriage at a young agae was quite common.

Young boys, by their standards, were considered men at a certain age (in our day he would still be in middle school).

A "Young Woman" (almah) as the bible says, some translate it as virgin were given in marriage at a young age and some given into religious service at birth.

You believe it is wrong (today) because you operate on a different moral code and the laws of the land may dictate how you live as well. Back then there was no such thing as statutory rape but in this day in time you can go to jail for it.

In the US we have that law. Can you imagine your 17 year old daughter in love with an 18 year old boy...... but they better not reveal they are in love because the law says she is a minor. When you adhere to a new set of morals it's easy to codem those of old.

Now, did God change his mind or was it the people who change their minds?

 

[McBell]

I am sure such a young girl was freely willing. Same thing as some child molesters say still today... "She was freely willing"
I appreciate it was more of a cultural norm back then, but it is either right or wrong "In the eyes of allah" - And if it is as wrong now as we believe it is, then it was wrong then. Or has allah changed its mind?

Until you can show something that says or even indicates that he sex with her during her minor years, you have nothing.

And no, your above post does not even come close to counting as evidence.
As I already stated in this thread:

Other than anti-Islam sites, I am unable to find anything that says Mohammad had sexual relations with her during her 'minor' years.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, to begin with, what evidence do you have that there is such a thing as God almighty, or that Allah is His prophet?

Certainly, whatever you may think Islam is or says, it has a rotten influence on its adherents, who just finished rioting and trying to lynch a poor teacher who had the nerve to allow her student to name a Teddy Bear "Mohammed." If you're going to say that none of those people were true Muslims, and only you know true Islam--are they reading a different Qu'ran than you? Who is to say that they're not the true Muslims, and you an apostate? At best, it certainly has a terrible tendency to be "misinterpreted" in this violent, bloodthirsty way, so maybe it would be better if it disbanded.

Any of us who read the news can easily think of many examples. Dragging a poor Belgian man to his death because a Danish newspaper printed a cartoon you didn't like. It's barbaric.

Speaking of apostates, Wiki tells me that:
All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed.[1] A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

Do you defend this violent denial of religious freedom, or is Wiki wrong too?

 

[Autodidact]

That why in Islam it is important to focus on Muhammed and his companions and not muslims today.

Well, not that we know for sure anything about Muhammed, but going by the Qu'ran, Hadiths and so forth, wasn't he a thief, a murderer and a rapist?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Good grief.

Re read it. The first statement was;



Now you can dispute the fact that it might not be negative, as you did here;



But that wasn't the point. My point was that you can't see it anything else than a negative. He said that you have no intention of looking at it as anything but a negative, and you basically agreed with him.

I personally don't endorse gambling, but it can be very entertaining as long as you can control yourself. I do drink, but I don't go overboard. There's only negatives in abusing it, not the actual thing itself.

really? so are you saying nothing ever bad comes out of drinking alcohol for the first time. what about the people who don't drink at all should they suffer with certain ills of society for others lack of responsibiltity. Why don't you tell that to the parents whose children have been killed in drunk driving accidents. Or the wife whose husband breaks her jaw because he is drunk. why should someone who is innocent suffer, so solve those problems when it affects others then if its not a big deal? .

That's my point. There are obvious positives to both of them, but you seem to be avoiding them.

that is not what I said. I said the bad FAR OUT WEIGHS THE GOOD. so leave it alone as Allah said.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Hmmm, could we perhaps solve the drug problem by killing anyone with a drug problem? It's all so clear to me now.:yes:

No that not what I am saying at all. the legislation for drugs for instance is that they are illegal. Do not sell or produce them. They attack the dealers for they are causing the addictions and problem. Killing the addicts does not stop the selling and manufacturing. wouldn't you agree? Drug dealers are killed if persist after being told not to if it not already established as illegal.

I seem to remember reading somewhere - possibly here - some evidence that states with the death penalty for murder don't have significantly less murders than states without the death penalty.

but how many of those who commit murder are given the death penalty. Many are there just for life why not kill them all according to the rules and regulations. Where people are punished regardless of position or status.

It appears the threat of death has a negligible effect on the commission of crimes.

I think it really depends on how much it is actually carried out. If 1000's are murdered yearly and few are given the full penalty ie. death. Then that is really just a threat. If every person who sold drugs, if every person who commits the rape of a child, if every person in jail committed these acts and the institution lined everyone up in public and told the public that these people committed these crimes and acts and they all are executed immediately. he doesn't sit in some cell for 10 to 15 years for doing it eating up tax payers money that could be redirected to a child's education or institution and programs for the poor. It is carried out immediately and swiftly. No exceptions, no probation. If everyone had that understanding from the door that this will not be tolerated. Then you would see a change. But look at our society, injustices done to people, courts take forever to make judgements, witnessess can be compromised, judges paid off, people lying etc. etc.

And it's a truly vindictive or unbalanced person who thinks their spouse deserves to die for having sex with someone else.:sarcastic

I think it is indecent and crazy for people to just go around and sleep with whoever they want and not be held accoutable for their families. Marriage in Islam is a contract and part of the agreement for muslims is if you get married then there are rights to fulfill and if one takes that away the penalty is severe because the problem it causes on society is severe. that is a morality issue and is really all perspective. But the negative effect of committing the act can be seen socially and pshycologically. the punishment is there to help human being refrain from something truely harmful.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Part Two:

So... you are saying that if people simply stop thinking and do as they are told then everything will be "peace, love and beards"?

You know that is not what I said. You know what I am talking about. You are very well aware that people cannot interpret Islam according to their own interpretations. Quit playing.

And in a world that embodies change, in every aspect of creation, this would seem to fly in the face of reality. I would tell you that Islam's inability to change is its greatest design flaw... But heck, what would an unbeliever know, eh?

Change would involve human interference thereby allowing human error to get into the word of Allah. You know whatever we put our hands in usually turns to crap at some point or another. If it is given from a divine source we have to leave it alone.

Even though you are exhorted by "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] not to make any changes to his work? This is what I mean. You are all stuck by your dogma and any attempt to redefine the meaning will be unsuccessful because there will always be Muslims who refuse to go along with the "new meaning" d'jour.

How can you define something that is not really abstract but clearly defined and has been given a defintion from the one who created it. That like saying if picasso left an essay on what he was saying this painting he was painting. Who am I to come along and say Oh no, that not what he meant.

My god, you folks need to do a bit less navel-gazing and get out and smell the coffee. Then again, the Ummah is supposed to be at each other's throat at the end of days, so perhaps each and every Muslim is simply doing their part. It is destiny and it is all in Allah's hands -- right?

Yes and no, Knowing what is right and doing what is right are two different things. That is what the messenger was implying. we have the sunnah and the Quran but people will leave the truth as time goes on. that is what always happens and always has. That is why Allah kept sending messengers. He would give a message, time would go on. People would forget or change it. And it would get sent again.

Are you serious? This statement is altogether laughable save for the fact that I suspect that you are actually serious. Um... I live on Planet Earth in the year 2007. Where else am I supposed to look when there are 1.3 billion examples of Islam strutting about the world like wounded little peacocks with axes to grind? Oy vey, eh?

As I said when are you going to stop looking at what muslims do today and say this is Islam? People blowing up building, killing women and children all for jihad. Did the messenger of Allah do that? Did his companions do that? that is what I am talking about. the Quran and the Sunnah are the example of Islam, just as i would not hold Hitler to the standards of Christians today and definitely not Issa himself, you should not hold muslims who have added to the religion and changed the way of the ones who were guided. You know that's what I meant, we have had this conversation already, You just like to play.

Do you realize that you are talking about "pie in the sky"?

Is this like the moon is made out of cheese analogy?

I understand FULLY what you are saying and see the sense in it, but surely you do not expect all of Islam to come around to your viewpoint, especially when so many perceive us being in the End of Days, already.

for some reason you must think what I am talking about is something I came up with 1400 years ago. Maybe for some strange reason you think I am Muhammed. Know I share his viewpoint on Islam, but since He brought it. the viewpoint I have is truly his.

BTW: Thank you, sincerely for the thoughtful answers my friend. I hope that one day, Muslim's will understand that I am their friend and not their enemy.

well I never thought you was an enemy.

It is true that I am no fan of Islam, but I have never met a Muslim I did not like. Go figger. I think it is their innocence that strikes a chord with me.

Innocence of what?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Part One:

Without the slightest doubt, the thing is, unlike Muslim's I never insist that I am correct. That in itself should serve as a rather stark neon flasher for anyone who has the slightest intellectual integrity.

Such strident rules may work well with people who are unable to think their way out of a paper bag with directions, but in "the west" we feel such measures are a trifle "over the top" shall we say. Some might even call such punishments barbaric. Death for adultery? That would seem to be a tiny bit extreme in my opinion. Thank you for outlining the systemic violence within Muslim thought however. I knew you would not let me down.

It is just one part of the process to help keep people from doing wrong. there are other factors involved. and I guess with all the great statistics on how society is in the US is an evidence that the way of the west works. All crimes are up, poverty up, foreclosures and the money market is crashing. women and children are raped and abducted daily. Amber alerts everywhere. Pedophilia at all time highs. prisons's are overrun with people and more are going up every day. yeah I think with all the statistics the west has a pretty good handle on the situation. LOL. yeah right.

Oh piffle. What many Muslims fail to grasp is that this also serves to sever them from their caring for humanity as a whole as everything is unimportant compared to the goal.

so why are the non muslims given so many rights in terms of how we are to treat them. If we do not care for them as a part of humanity. If it is not important why are we commanded to treat non muslims like we do our families.

Say what you will, the woman I was thinking of was a staunchly pious Muslim who is now a member of parliament (or whatever) in Hamas. It is OBVIOUSLY inspired by her view of her religion which is Islam. No doubt she is not a "good" Muslim because of this.

Maybe but is she the criterion to judge. I gave a hadith from Abdullah ibn Masa'ood who was speaking to a Tabi'een. If you want to follow a path, follow the way of those who are dead. The Messenger and His companions, for the living amongst you may fail in their trials. this is someone who is amongst the generations from whom Allah said is blessed and got it right. they were the least superficial as Muhammed phuh says. so this woman even though on the surface she could be pious but we do not know. she may cheat and steal from others, talk badly to people who knows. Something in her character may be flawed so she is not someone to look at as an example for on how we as muslims are to respond to things like oppression which I have said in another post is what is causing alot of the issues. People are not acting as they should in response to the test Allah puts them through.

Why is it that when things go well for Muslim's it is often considered the "will of Allah" and when the tables are turned it is "oppression". Why is it not the will of Allah working against rather stupid Muslims? Sadly, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. That only happens in

Hollywood.

It is all a test the good and the bad. I never said the good is the will and when the tables are turned it is oppression. I am saying that muslims are not responding to the fitnah which at this moment is oppression. and those who act out wrongly against the oppression should not be looked at as examples on how muslims are to respond to tough times. We must as Muhammed the sahaba did be patient and remain steadfast and do not lose heart, and act hastely in faith.

Well only a fool would wage "war" on a far superior adversary. My guess he was making a list, much like Santa Claus, of who was being naughty and who was being nice. It's called biding one's time until the moment is ripe.

Really tell that to the 314 muslims who fought 900 from quraish, with very little camel and cavalry. Allah gives victory to whom he pleases.

I didn't say it was exclusively a Muslim problem. I said that oddly it was prominent in many Islamic countries. One would think that if Islam is so Hell bent on correcting the behavior of their adherents that they would have put a stop to this kind of thing, but no, they don't seem to care and so it continues to this day.

You said it only exists in Muslim countries therefore it must be something that only affects muslims.

There is nothing in the Qur'an about "covering up women" it only states that men AND women should dress modestly. I assume you have read the Qur'an, correct?

You sure about that. there is no verse in the Quran that tells a women to cover everthing exept her feet, hands and face. that is the minimum but what is best is to have it to where just one eye is showing. Look again.

Point taken, perhaps I should have said, "In spite of what the Qur'an says to the contrary..." countries like Saudi Arabia do not tolerate ANY other religion except Islam to exist in peace. Likewise the government of

Iran is hardly a bastion of promoting religious freedom... again, in spite of what the Qur'an implores people to do. In both these cases, it would seem that the followers are indeed compelled to tow the government line, regardless of what the Qur'an has to say about it. You would think someone would have noticed.

Well lets just look at who put these muslims leaders in office. it was not the muslims. some took it by force. Again as I said what they are doing is something they came up with. And by default is not islam and cannot be considered as something muslims do. it is only what the ignorant of Allah and His Messenger do. regardless of what title they try to attribute to themselves.

The unsaid portion here is that as long as that pursuit of knowledge does NOT go outside clearly established Islamic thought and principles.

that's not true, look at medicine. is it not permissible to study it. Doesn't studying it benefit muslims. it is only if the knowledge will take you away from the path of Allah? Like for instance i met a guy once, really weird guy who studied torture methods, both ancient and recent. how would that knowledge benefit mankind? it doesn't really.

Again, I did not say it was but that was a nice side-step. I hadn't realized that Muslims were accomplished dancers. All kidding aside why are many Muslim nations’ world leaders in terms of illiteracy? One would think that folks would at least be encouraged to learn how to read -- apparently not.

Well look at the literacy rate of America. with all the money.

Your anti-Jewish sentiments are most edifying. Thank you so much for clarifying this topic. (I do not watch television and I do not listen to the radio. Go figger.)

Anti jewish? i am talking about a video MADE BY JEWS talking about jews. How is that anti jewish are they being anti jew of themselves. What do you call that. Kinda reminds me of that Dave Chapelle episode with the black white supremest.

Seriously, that is commendable, but as the virulent elements of Islam have known for some time, action speaks louder than words. If we non-believers have a very negative view of Muslims the onus is on the "good" Muslims to show that we are in error. Don't give in to the idea that you CANNOT effect change. You can. Just don't give in to the reasons why you cannot or we will never change our viewpoint of Islam. Do you hear what I am saying?

again what if we are not given a voice, If you can manage a program or stage to reach people please set it up. I got the people ready. Provide the venue. If non muslims want us to say so much then give us a voice. it is the non muslims who are in charge of the majority of media. Get them to come if you can. We have tried to get slots on TV and if you are not an extremist they do not want to hear it.

Now technically that is very true, but you have unwittingly stepped into my bear trap by saying this. IF these things are cultural, and Islam is a total way of life and a Perfect religion, then logic would indicate that such nefarious cultural elements should have been cleansed by now. Islam has been around for 1400 hundred years and has no problem dictating every aspect of life to the believer. So why do these "cultural" things continue to this day? My guess is that they are all considered to be A-OK and so they are left alone, but... I could be wrong.

Well it was for a while, but as I said people forget, they follow desires, they want power or position etc. etc. People can choose to do it or not to do it. La Ikra fi deen there is no compulsion in religion.