What do you think about Quranists?

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Hadiths that contradict the Quran should not be used at all. Even if the hadiths is sahih, because it is mistakes in sahih hadiths also. Only the Quran is without error and mistakes.

The Quran I read in English translations (over all) endorses:

(1) Slavery
(2) Wife beating
(3)A claim that Mohammad (s) didn't perform miracles (almost all translated a verse wrong to imply this) (and this contradicts much of the Quran too).
(4) Men are to overpower women and put them in their place.

Do you think that is the true clear Quran?

 

[Starlight]

The Quran I read in English translations (over all) endorses:

(1) Slavery
(2) Wife beating
(3)A claim that Mohammad (s) didn't perform miracles (almost all translated a verse wrong to imply this) (and this contradicts much of the Quran too).
(4) Men are to overpower women and put them in their place.

Do you think that is the true clear Quran?

The real Quran is in arabic. It is possible for people who translate the Quran to make mistakes

 

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The real Quran is in arabic. It is possible for people who translate the Quran to make mistakes

Yet most of the world is not Arabic. And almost all if not all translations are horrible.

 

[Starlight]

Yet most of the world is not Arabic. And almost all if not all translations are horrible.

since the Quran can be translated the wrong way, then hadiths can also be translated the wrong way

 

[Link]

since the Quran can be translated the wrong way, then hadiths can also be translated the wrong way

Yup. Showing there is an interpretation problem and "Quran only" doesn't solve nor does "Quran and Sunnah only" solve it.

Heck, even Ahlulbayt (a) + Quran does not solve it if attempted to be followed. There is more to it, and humans have to counsel one another regarding Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) counsel to them + share knowledge + hold people accountable to falsehood + command good and forbid evil + strive hard in God's way, and other things.

 

[Dimi95]

Q3:
"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step) in truth the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down Law (Of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this as a guide to mankind and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)."

 

[stevecanuck]

Unfortunately, you don't really seem to understand your own arguments.

If the hadith didn't change the meaning of any verses, why do you think Quranists reject them as fabricated tales that corrupt Muhammad's message? Also, why do you think Sunni Muslims are called Sunni if the sunnah is of no real value to interpreting the Quran?

Now lets look at more verses to see if your argument carries weight.

Glory be to Him, who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque to the Further Mosque the precincts of which We have blessed, that We might show him some of Our signs. He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing. (1) And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel: 'Take not unto yourselves any guardian apart from Me.' (2) The seed of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant. (3) And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book: 'You shall do corruption in the earth twice, and you shall ascend exceeding high.'

Are you saying it is self-evident from the verse that Muhammad flew on a donkey to Jerusalem, and it is not only something invented in the hadith? (in the Quran it's probably even about Moses).

Hadiths obviously impact the meaning of the Quran, as almost all Muslims would agree (although they might say 'clarify'). Again, your personal opinion doesn't seem very connected to the real world outside your imagination.

1. Hadiths didn't change the meaning of that verse. It gives more detail (probably, as you say, well after the fact to enhance Islam's claim on Jerusalem). As such, it's not original and therefore not part of Islam according to the Qur'an, which is the point of this thread.

2. Now, what about the other 6,235, like the example I gave you and you ignored? Are you going to explain how hadiths could possibly change "Allah is the enemy of unbelievers", or are you just going to demand answers from me from your high horse?

 

[stevecanuck]

The Quran is infinite in knowledge. The Sunnah is explicit in many details that we otherwise would not know from Quran alone.

The inherent contradiction of that sentence is obvious. How can you not see it?

 

[stevecanuck]

Now I believe you go against the Quran

We did not leave anything out of the book. Quran 6:38

Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.[Quran 6:114]

The biggest problem with much hadiths is that hadiths contradict with the Quran ,and hadiths was written two hundred years after prophet Muhammads death

Not to menion surah 54, which contains four verses that say, "We have certainly made the Qur'an easy ..."

 

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The inherent contradiction of that sentence is obvious. How can you not see it?

A book for mankind, will be infinite in knowledge, it does not mean every human unlocks all of it by themselves. We need to work together regarding it's understanding and we also need the family of the reminder per it's own words. Asking them when we don't know is part of relying on God per it's own words.

 

[stevecanuck]

The real Quran is in arabic. It is possible for people who translate the Quran to make mistakes

Also, some translators try to help 'Allah' out of his mistakes. The Sahih International translation blatantly uses "Your forefathers" instead of "you (kum)" in verse 2:49 to try to hide the fact that 'Allah' keeps talking about the Jews of Moses' time in the present tense dozens of times in obvious error.

 

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Not to menion surah 54, which contains four verses that say, "We have certainly made the Qur'an easy ..."

Yet this verse repeated also says "so is there anyone who will mind/pay heed". So it being easy doesn't mean everyone will understand. Other factors play in into people. And the Surah repeats warning of destruction and yet people are heedless about these warnings pertaining to the Mahdi (a) in the Quran.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yet most of the world is not Arabic. And almost all if not all translations are horrible.

The best translation (ie: those I can confirm with my limited Arabic) is the word-for-word option in corpus.quran.com

 

[stevecanuck]

A book for mankind, will be infinite in knowledge, it does not mean every human unlocks all of it by themselves.

You are saying that Allah sent a book to men for a purpose that they are incapable of properly understanding.

We need to work together regarding it's understanding and we also need the family of the reminder per it's own words. Asking them when we don't know is part of relying on God per it's own words.

If that's so, then Allah failed miserably in his mission to admonish mankind.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yet this verse repeated also says "so is there anyone who will mind/pay heed". So it being easy doesn't mean everyone will understand.

Yes, it does. I understand the message of the Qur'an, but I simply choose to treat it as the man-made superstition that it is.

 

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Yes, it does. I understand the message of the Qur'an, but I simply choose to treat it as the man-made superstition that it is.

Yet Surah Qamar warns about the Mahdi (a) destruction potential and that is what the reminder there is about. You will find me and maybe no one else in your lifetime that will tell you about the warning pertaining to the Mahdi (a) as potential destruction.

It's very clear, easy to be reminded about, as easy as it can be made to be, yet no one understands. This is my experience.

In translations, entire words disappear or words added not there or changed.

I will give you an example. Most people including most Shias don't see Ali (a) name in Quran. Yet there is a verse that says and cannot be translated into anything other then being about Ali (a) while naming him grammatically.

"And indeed it's in the origin/mother of book with us that Ali is wise." The "that" goes missing in translations, and they go "And indeed it's in the origin of the book with us, (truly) exalted wise" or if there is that, there is an addition of the word "is" which is not there in the Arabic.

قوله: { وإنه في أم الكتاب لدينا لعلي حكيم } يعني أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام مكتوب في الحمد في قوله: { اهدنا الصراط المستقيم } قال أبوعبد الله عليه السلام هو أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام.


And Tafsir Kashani regarding this verse.

وفي المعاني عن الصادق عليه السلام هو امير المؤمنين عليه السلام في امّ الكتاب يعني الفاتحة فانّه مكتوب فيها في قوله تعالى{ ٱهْدِنَا ٱلصِّرَاطَ ٱلْمُسْتَقِيمَ } [الفاتحة: 6] قال الصراط المستقيم هو امير المؤمنين عليه السلام ومعرفته.

Imam Jaffar (a) says "it is the Commander of the Faithful (nickname of Imam Ali)" it is in the mother of the book means the opening it is written it - in God's words exalted above (all) be he, "Guide us the straight path" it is the commanded of the faithful (a) and recognition/gnosis/knowledge of him.

The word disappears in the minds of people, the "that" as if not there, and different sentence is what appears in translation.

 

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You are saying that Allah sent a book to men for a purpose that they are incapable of properly understanding.

I think you don't realize that Quran is not a normal book. It has doors opening up other doors, and everyone get's out of it, what they put in. No one fully understands it but God and Ahlulbayt (a) which is why itself tells us to ask them when we don't know something.

 

[stevecanuck]

I think you don't realize that Quran is not a normal book. It has doors opening up other doors, and everyone get's out of it, what they put in.

NO.

They get out of it exactly what ALLAH put into it. That's the entire point of it. A sledge hammer is not nuanced.

 

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NO.

They get out of it exactly what ALLAH put into it. That's the entire point of it.

Everyone has their own special knowledge, talent, experiences, and will experience Quran differently. Quran has not remained the same to me for one year to another. It changes drastically in form to me.

For political theory, if you are not acquainted at all with the subject of power, human rights, government, democracy vs republic debate, do you think you will know what Quran says about those subjects?

Quran is so comprehensive, that for every thing we need guidance for in personal matters, we can do itsekhera of Quran, and pray to God to guide us, and we should see the sign in the Quran and get a proof from it regarding the course of action we should take.

There is no one who can read the Quran and understand it at that level that is comprehensive to every human need except for exalted souls that God has made them understand things at a far higher level and understand all sciences mankind need for guidance.

 

[Dimi95]

A book for mankind, will be infinite in knowledge, it does not mean every human unlocks all of it by themselves. We need to work together regarding it's understanding and we also need the family of the reminder per it's own words. Asking them when we don't know is part of relying on God per it's own words.

So the Quran is dependable and not 'Al-Furqan'?

Remember , you are saying that!