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What do you want to know about LDS beliefs?

SoyLeche

meh...
Victor said:
Please don't pretend like you don't know what I am looking for SL. Back in http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27110&page=7&pp=10post#61 it was readily apparent and nutshell understood it just fine when he said,


I am trying to stay charitable by tolerating your constant red herrings. But instead you persist in understanding me while not answering the question. The topic of the thread is wanting to know LDS beliefs not Catholic beliefs. So will you finally attempt to answer the question? Or can you only do so by asking me questions back?
In other words you have no answer for me. You said that all of the ancient prophets fit into one of your 3 criteria. I can't see it. Please illuminate.

We have offered the Campbellite congregation in Kirtland Ohio. Dan has given you a quote from a priest in the 18th century. Here's one more for you:
When Wilford Woodruff was a child, he and his family befriended Robert Mason, a man who was known for his distinctive religious beliefs. President Woodruff recalled:

“He believed that it was necessary to have prophets, apostles, dreams, visions and revelations in the church of Christ, the same as they had who lived in ancient days; and he believed the Lord would raise up a people and a church, in the last days, with prophets, apostles and all the gifts, powers, and blessings, which it ever contained in any age of the world. … He frequently came to my father’s house when I was a boy, and taught me and my brothers those principles; and I believed him.

“[He] prayed a great deal, and he had dreams and visions, and the Lord showed him many things, by visions, which were to come to pass in the last days.

“I will here relate one vision, which he related to me. The last time I ever saw him, he said: ‘I was laboring in my field at mid-day when I was enwrapped in a vision. I was placed in the midst of a vast forest of fruit trees: I was very hungry, and walked a long way through the orchard, searching for fruit to eat; but I could not find any in the whole orchard, and I wept because I could not find any fruit. While I stood gazing at the orchard, and wondering why there was no fruit, the trees began to fall to the ground upon every side of me, until there was not one tree standing in the whole orchard; and while I was marveling at the scene, I saw young sprouts start up from the roots of the trees which had fallen, and they opened into young thrifty trees before my eyes. They budded, blossomed, and bare fruit until the trees were loaded with the finest fruit I ever beheld, and I rejoiced to see so much fine fruit. I stepped up to a tree and picked my hands full of fruit, and marveled at its beauty, and as I was about to taste of it the vision closed, and I found myself in the field in the same place I was at the commencement of the vision.

“ ‘I then knelt upon the ground, and prayed unto the Lord, and asked him, in the name of Jesus Christ, to show me the meaning of the vision. The Lord said unto me: “This is the interpretation of the vision; the great trees of the forest represent the generation of men in which you live. There is no church of Christ, or kingdom of God upon the earth in your generation. There is no fruit of the Church of Christ upon the earth. There is no man ordained of God to administer in any of the ordinances of the gospel of salvation upon the earth in this day and generation. But, in the next generation, I the Lord will set up my kingdom and my Church upon the earth, and the fruits of the kingdom and church of Christ, such as have followed the prophets, apostles and saints in every dispensation, shall again be found in all their fulness upon the earth. You will live to see the day, and handle the fruit; but will never partake of it in the flesh.” ’ ”

President Woodruff continued: “When [he] had finished relating the vision and interpretation, he said to me, … ‘I shall never partake of this fruit in the flesh; but you will, and you will become a conspicuous actor in that kingdom.’ He then turned and left me. These were the last words he ever spoke to me upon the earth. …

“He had this vision about the year 1800, and he related it to me in 1830—the same spring that this Church was organized.

“This vision, with his other teachings to me, made a great impression upon my mind, and I prayed a great deal to the Lord to lead me by his Spirit, and prepare me for his Church when it did come.”

When Wilford Woodruff joined the Church, he wrote a letter to his friend Robert Mason. “I … told him I had found the Church of Christ that he had told me about,” he later recalled. “I told him about its organization and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon; that the Church had prophets, apostles, and all the gifts and blessings in it, and that the true fruit of the kingdom and Church of Christ were manifest among the Saints as the Lord had shown him in his vision. He received my letter, and read it over many times, and handled it as he had handled the fruit in the vision; but he was very aged, and soon died. He did not live to see any Elder to administer the ordinances of the Gospel unto him.

“The first opportunity I had, after the doctrine of baptism for the dead was revealed, I went forth and was baptized for him.”
To my view, there were people waiting for someone to restore the Gospel. Therefore, Joseph Smith fits into one of your criteria. Now you are going to tell me that he doesn't. If not, then I don't understand what you are asking for and require a better description or an example. I'd prefer an example of a Biblical prophet (not Christ) that we can both accept as authoritative.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
SoyLeche said:
In other words you have no answer for me. You said that all of the ancient prophets fit into one of your 3 criteria. I can't see it. Please illuminate.

We have offered the Campbellite congregation in Kirtland Ohio. Dan has given you a quote from a priest in the 18th century. Here's one more for you:
To my view, there were people waiting for someone to restore the Gospel. Therefore, Joseph Smith fits into one of your criteria. Now you are going to tell me that he doesn't. If not, then I don't understand what you are asking for and require a better description or an example. I'd prefer an example of a Biblical prophet (not Christ) that we can both accept as authoritative.
You just don't get it do you? I'm done here.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
You just don't get it do you? I'm done here.
Victor, before you leave, can you please clarify why the Campbellite congregation and Dan's example of the 18th century priest don't meat the criteria you're looking for? Perhaps that can help me as I search for my own examples.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
nutshell said:
Victor, before you leave, can you please clarify why the Campbellite congregation and Dan's example of the 18th century priest don't meat the criteria you're looking for? Perhaps that can help me as I search for my own examples.
I have not been given one link or source. Just names. I have been asking for them for the last 3 pages or so. I will consider the Campbellite after a link and source is given. Give me all you can please.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Victor said:
*Note to self, SL is truly here to win debates. You win SL.;)
All I am doing is trying to get you to defend your position. You have said that all of the prophets except Joseph Smith fit into at least one of your 3 criteria. We have provided more evidence that Joseph Smith fits into one of those criteria than you are able to provide for any other prophet. Stop your attack on me and defend what you have put forward.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
SoyLeche said:
All I am doing is trying to get you to defend your position. You have said that all of the prophets except Joseph Smith fit into at least one of your 3 criteria. We have provided more evidence that Joseph Smith fits into one of those criteria than you are able to provide for any other prophet. Stop your attack on me and defend what you have put forward.
Next time, pay attention to the thread title. I'll be more then glad to answer your questions but I don't see why you have to know the answers to your questions to move ahead.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
I have not been given one link or source. Just names. I have been asking for them for the last 3 pages or so. I will consider the Campbellite after a link and source is given. Give me all you can please.
That is a lie, plain and simple. I told you the author, the town and the library where you can find the prophecy. I don't do my research on the internet, I do it in the field. I am a researcher, not a monkey banging on a computer and only finding what other people already know.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Victor said:
Next time, pay attention to the thread title. I'll be more then glad to answer your questions but I don't see why you have to know the answers to your questions to move ahead.
To understand why Joseph Smith doesn't fit your criteria. Obviously to you he doesn't. Please explain why.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
dan said:
That is a lie, plain and simple. I told you the author, the town and the library where you can find the prophecy. I don't do my research on the internet, I do it in the field. I am a researcher, not a monkey banging on a computer and only finding what other people already know.

Ha! You were asked for sources by YOUR OWN CHURCH MEMBERS!! And I'm lieing? A library in switzerland? C'mon Dan....I'll let you know when I have the money to go there...:rolleyes:
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
SoyLeche said:
To understand why Joseph Smith doesn't fit your criteria. Obviously to you he doesn't. Please explain why.
1) No link, book, or resource has been given that I can look up and read
2) Which group of people, if any was waiting for the restoration. The Lutherans? The Catholics? The Presbytarian? The Church of England? Give me something solid.
3) Tell me why I should believe anything JS said? Outside of his interpretation of Scripture?
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Victor said:
1) No link, book, or resource has been given that I can look up and read
2) Which group of people, if any was waiting for the restoration. The Lutherans? The Catholics? The Presbytarian? The Church of England? Give me something solid.
3) Tell me why I should believe anything JS said? Outside of his interpretation of Scripture?
1) You have been given names.
2) Apparently, the Mormons were
3) I will as soon as you tell me why someone living 200 years after Isaiah would believe that he was a prophet.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
SoyLeche said:
2) Apparently, the Mormons were
LDS existed before JS? Interesting.....you have anything to show for it?

SoyLeche said:
3) I will as soon as you tell me why someone living 200 years after Isaiah would believe that he was a prophet.
LOL....what did I tell you?
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
Ha! You were asked for sources by YOUR OWN CHURCH MEMBERS!! And I'm lieing? A library in switzerland? C'mon Dan....I'll let you know when I have the money to go there...:rolleyes:
1- Yes I was asked by members of my own faith, but not because they doubt. It's because they want to know more. I am asked because my evidence is not the stuff shouted from the pulpit every Sunday. I'm down in the trenches looking for new research. I'm finding stuff not everyone knows about.

2- You don't have to hold it in your hand and smell it to know that it really says that. You wouldn't understand it anyway. Even if I had provided you with a website and a complete bibliography you would have done the exact same thing you're doing now: ignore it. Let's play a game. We pretend the quote is real and then you explain how it doesn't make our position any better.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
dan said:
1- Yes I was asked by members of my own faith, but not because they doubt. It's because they want to know more. I am asked because my evidence is not the stuff shouted from the pulpit every Sunday. I'm down in the trenches looking for new research. I'm finding stuff not everyone knows about.

2- You don't have to hold it in your hand and smell it to know that it really says that. You wouldn't understand it anyway. Even if I had provided you with a website and a complete bibliography you would have done the exact same thing you're doing now: ignore it. Let's play a game. We pretend the quote is real and then you explain how it doesn't make our position any better.
It's true. I was thinking there was a single book that he got his information from, but then I read his post again and realised that it was probably from many sources, and I don't have time to do that kind of research.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Victor said:
LDS existed before JS? Interesting.....you have anything to show for it?


LOL....what did I tell you?
The people that would become Mormons, sure.

I am still at the same spot that I was before you started this tangent - there is no objective way to decide if someone is a prophet or not. You have not been willing to show me any, so there we are.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
dan said:
I'm finding stuff not everyone knows about.

2- You wouldn't understand it anyway. Even if I had provided you with a website and a complete bibliography you would have done the exact same thing you're doing now: ignore it. Let's play a game. We pretend the quote is real and then you explain how it doesn't make our position any better.
Wow, little do you know that I was once LDS and I'm still open to being wrong. Are you open to it? Give me something and let's find out. Instead of you thinking you know me...;)
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
SoyLeche said:
The people that would become Mormons, sure.

I am still at the same spot that I was before you started this tangent - there is no objective way to decide if someone is a prophet or not. You have not been willing to show me any, so there we are.
So basically what you are saying is that have none? And you assume that I have none either? Gotcha...;)
 
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