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What do you want to know about LDS beliefs?

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Victor said:
Most in history were, the ones that weren't had to make up for it by lighting fireworks and splitting seas in half. Get the picture?
Can't you answer questions without asking me questions back?
Victor you have a problem here, repeating the question won’t find you an answer.
I have been watching this thread and you each have a different mindset to the other.
It is clear that they believe in personal revelation and also church wide revelation through their prophets.
This does not rely on the previously written word for evidence but only their faith.
I actually go along with this to a large extent. For me prophets speak for God, they need no corroboration from previous prophets or texts to speak Gods word.
What they say must be new to have any worth...i.e. not old news.

The prophets of old were expected to either fulfil a previous prophecy, or demonstrate Gods power in some way. This is probably why many Christians believe there will be no new prophets.

God on the other hand may have other Ideas, and it is us failing to recognise prophets that have the problem.



Terry_________________________
Blessed are the merciful, mercy shall be shown unto them.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Terrywoodenpic said:
Victor you have a problem here, repeating the question wont find you an answer.
I have been watching this thread and you each have a different mindset to the other.
It is clear that they believe in personal revelation and also church wide revelation through their prophets.
This does not rely on the previously written word for evidence but only their faith.
Correct. Which is what I noted early on.

Terrywoodenpic said:
I actually go along with this to a large extent. For me prophets speak for God, they need no corroration from previous prophets or texts to speak Gods word.
What they say must be new to have any worth...ie. not old news.
So how do you confirm? Oh wait, I think your about to answer it...

Terrywoodenpic said:
The prophets of old were expected to either fulfill a previous prophercy, or demonstate Gods power in some way. This is probably why many Christians belive there will be no new prophets.
I also noted this as something subjective (written prophecy) turned objective thru the prophet. But as I said that there a) must have been people waiting for it b) we should see some early writings showing this c) there was always an authority to verify such things.

Terrywoodenpic said:
God on the other hand may have other Ideas,and it is us failing to recognise prophets that have the problem.
I don't mind recognizing them. But I need something to work with to do so.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
I also noted this as something subjective (written prophecy) turned objective thru the prophet. But as I said that there a) must have been people waiting for it b) we should see some early writings showing this c) there was always an authority to verify such things.
I suspect your criteria is set up in a way such that only the Catholic church would meet this standard in your eyes.

Can you please explain by who's authority this criteria was established?
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
We live in a world where objectivity (tangible) and subjectivity (spiritual) is what the senses and what faith can pick up on. To me, I see LDS theology working mostly and exclusively in subjectivity as means to show people they are legit and the real deal. This is unique in prophets nutshell. The isrealites had an objective means to test the prophets. They had the leaders of the Church and written and inspired documents. Give me something objective, that's all I ask.
Sounds fair. How does God interact with His people in the Bible? Through prophets and scripture. As long as there were righteous people there were prophets to write scripture to guide people through their unique situations. Why did that stop? Some argue that prophets were no longer necessary after Christ. The Bible specifically mentions several prophets after Christ came and went, so that can't be true. Many argue that the different churches scattered abroad on the earth represent the body of Christ, each sect and denomination fulfilling different responsibilities. This is completely contradictory to every inch of the doctrine found in the Bible. Some argue that we don't need them anymore. That's wholly irrational - we are in desperate need of divine guidance more now than ever. Some argue that the scriptures represent all we'll ever need to know about the Gospel. This is also in direct conflict to every word of the Bible. The Bible doesn't even give us a good blueprint for running the tiniest congregation. Some even argue that God cannot speak with us anymore. This is ridiculous. If you'd like to argue another reason why we don't need prophets then let me know, but undeniable fact is this: for over 1700 years nations argued, fought, killed, died and tortured because the word of God was left to the hands of mortal men. The human race actually retrogressed for ages. Thousands of different opinions were spread across the land. Find me one spot in the BIble where this is consistent with how God manages His people. The Bible speaks repeatedly of a falling away and a restoration. Can it be denied that the time I spoke of represents a falling away? Here is the prophecy of a Catholic priest written in 1739. His name was Lutis Grantino, and this article can be found in the Baseal, Switzerland library, where he lived. You'll have to speak German to read it, but I'll translate for you:

"The old, true Gospel and the gifts thereof are lost. False doctrines prevail in all the churches on the face of the earth. All we can do is exhort the people to be just, fear God, shun evil and pray. Prayer and purity may cause an angel to visit a deep and distressed soul, but I tell you that God will have spoken within 100 years. He will restore the old church again, I see a little band of people led by a prophet and a faithful leader. They are persecuted, burned out, and murdered. But in a valley that lies on the shores of a great lake they will build a great city and make a beautiful land. They will have a temple of magnificent splendor and also possess the old priesthood with apostles, prophets, teachers, deacons, etc. From every name shall the believers be gathered by speedy messengers and then will Almighty God speak to the disobedient with thunder, lightning and destruction such as man has never before known."

If you don't recognize the fact that every single point in his prophecy corresponds exactly with the history of this church then you shouldn't be engaged in any way with debate regarding the LDS church.

Joseph Smith was born into a time when men tore God out of the heavens and slathered Him with the stench of the philosophies of men. He only found religions that preached the following: NO prophets, NO revelation and NO scripture. Joseph Smith presented the Gospel in the exact same way that it was done in the Bible: he brought forth prophets, apostles, teachers, deacons, priests. He brought forth authority throught the laying on of hands. He also brought forth scripture (just like every single prophet in the Bible). The Book of Mormon teaches the exact same principles as the Bible and follows the exact same principles. This is objectivity. Can you demonstrate your objectivity by considering these points based on their merit alone, or will you resort to the all-to-common litany of seeking after evidence specifically to denounce these claims?

Just as God can never be reached except as He reveals Himself, the veracity of the Book of Mormon can never be established except by the spirit. I could talk for two years on intricate Chiastic structures that were written in the Book of Mormon before the author even knew Chiasmus existed. I could talk about the existence of towns along the desert route mentioned in the Book of Mormon that exist in modern Arabia. I could talk about all the unfulfilled biblical prophecies that the Book of Mormon fulfills. I could talk about the fact that over a dozen men handled the gold plates and stood by (till their deaths) sworn testimonies that they truly exist despite their own efforts to bring down the church and even kill Joseph Smith. I could talk about recent discoveries in Mesoamerica that now substantiate claims made over 150 years ago. I could talk about DNA evidence that shows that Native Americans are related to indo-europeans and Semitic peoples. I could go on for years, but none of this is going to prove anything. If you want to believe in God, the Bible or the Book of Mormon you have to get down on your knees and pray about it.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
dan said:
Sounds fair. How does God interact with His people in the Bible? Through prophets and scripture. As long as there were righteous people there were prophets to write scripture to guide people through their unique situations. Why did that stop? Some argue that prophets were no longer necessary after Christ. The Bible specifically mentions several prophets after Christ came and went, so that can't be true. Many argue that the different churches scattered abroad on the earth represent the body of Christ, each sect and denomination fulfilling different responsibilities. This is completely contradictory to every inch of the doctrine found in the Bible. Some argue that we don't need them anymore. That's wholly irrational - we are in desperate need of divine guidance more now than ever. Some argue that the scriptures represent all we'll ever need to know about the Gospel. This is also in direct conflict to every word of the Bible. The Bible doesn't even give us a good blueprint for running the tiniest congregation. Some even argue that God cannot speak with us anymore. This is ridiculous. If you'd like to argue another reason why we don't need prophets then let me know, but undeniable fact is this: for over 1700 years nations argued, fought, killed, died and tortured because the word of God was left to the hands of mortal men. The human race actually retrogressed for ages. Thousands of different opinions were spread across the land. Find me one spot in the BIble where this is consistent with how God manages His people. The Bible speaks repeatedly of a falling away and a restoration. Can it be denied that the time I spoke of represents a falling away? Here is the prophecy of a Catholic priest written in 1739. His name was Lutis Grantino, and this article can be found in the Baseal, Switzerland library, where he lived. You'll have to speak German to read it, but I'll translate for you:

"The old, true Gospel and the gifts thereof are lost. False doctrines prevail in all the churches on the face of the earth. All we can do is exhort the people to be just, fear God, shun evil and pray. Prayer and purity may cause an angel to visit a deep and distressed soul, but I tell you that God will have spoken within 100 years. He will restore the old church again, I see a little band of people led by a prophet and a faithful leader. They are persecuted, burned out, and murdered. But in a valley that lies on the shores of a great lake they will build a great city and make a beautiful land. They will have a temple of magnificent splendor and also possess the old priesthood with apostles, prophets, teachers, deacons, etc. From every name shall the believers be gathered by speedy messengers and then will Almighty God speak to the disobedient with thunder, lightning and destruction such as man has never before known."

If you don't recognize the fact that every single point in his prophecy corresponds exactly with the history of this church then you shouldn't be engaged in any way with debate regarding the LDS church.

Joseph Smith was born into a time when men tore God out of the heavens and slathered Him with the stench of the philosophies of men. He only found religions that preached the following: NO prophets, NO revelation and NO scripture. Joseph Smith presented the Gospel in the exact same way that it was done in the Bible: he brought forth prophets, apostles, teachers, deacons, priests. He brought forth authority throught the laying on of hands. He also brought forth scripture (just like every single prophet in the Bible). The Book of Mormon teaches the exact same principles as the Bible and follows the exact same principles. This is objectivity. Can you demonstrate your objectivity by considering these points based on their merit alone, or will you resort to the all-to-common litany of seeking after evidence specifically to denounce these claims?

Just as God can never be reached except as He reveals Himself, the veracity of the Book of Mormon can never be established except by the spirit. I could talk for two years on intricate Chiastic structures that were written in the Book of Mormon before the author even knew Chiasmus existed. I could talk about the existence of towns along the desert route mentioned in the Book of Mormon that exist in modern Arabia. I could talk about all the unfulfilled biblical prophecies that the Book of Mormon fulfills. I could talk about the fact that over a dozen men handled the gold plates and stood by (till their deaths) sworn testimonies that they truly exist despite their own efforts to bring down the church and even kill Joseph Smith. I could talk about recent discoveries in Mesoamerica that now substantiate claims made over 150 years ago. I could talk about DNA evidence that shows that Native Americans are related to indo-europeans and Semitic peoples. I could go on for years, but none of this is going to prove anything. If you want to believe in God, the Bible or the Book of Mormon you have to get down on your knees and pray about it.
I'm curious what your sources are Dan.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
nutshell said:
I suspect your criteria is set up in a way such that only the Catholic church would meet this standard in your eyes.

Can you please explain by who's authority this criteria was established?
I'm not understanding what your asking.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
dan said:
Sounds fair. How does God interact with His people in the Bible? Through prophets and scripture. As long as there were righteous people there were prophets to write scripture to guide people through their unique situations. Why did that stop? Some argue that prophets were no longer necessary after Christ. The Bible specifically mentions several prophets after Christ came and went, so that can't be true. Many argue that the different churches scattered abroad on the earth represent the body of Christ, each sect and denomination fulfilling different responsibilities. This is completely contradictory to every inch of the doctrine found in the Bible. Some argue that we don't need them anymore. That's wholly irrational - we are in desperate need of divine guidance more now than ever. Some argue that the scriptures represent all we'll ever need to know about the Gospel. This is also in direct conflict to every word of the Bible. The Bible doesn't even give us a good blueprint for running the tiniest congregation. Some even argue that God cannot speak with us anymore. This is ridiculous. If you'd like to argue another reason why we don't need prophets then let me know, but undeniable fact is this: for over 1700 years nations argued, fought, killed, died and tortured because the word of God was left to the hands of mortal men. The human race actually retrogressed for ages. Thousands of different opinions were spread across the land. Find me one spot in the BIble where this is consistent with how God manages His people. The Bible speaks repeatedly of a falling away and a restoration. Can it be denied that the time I spoke of represents a falling away? Here is the prophecy of a Catholic priest written in 1739. His name was Lutis Grantino, and this article can be found in the Baseal, Switzerland library, where he lived. You'll have to speak German to read it, but I'll translate for you:

"The old, true Gospel and the gifts thereof are lost. False doctrines prevail in all the churches on the face of the earth. All we can do is exhort the people to be just, fear God, shun evil and pray. Prayer and purity may cause an angel to visit a deep and distressed soul, but I tell you that God will have spoken within 100 years. He will restore the old church again, I see a little band of people led by a prophet and a faithful leader. They are persecuted, burned out, and murdered. But in a valley that lies on the shores of a great lake they will build a great city and make a beautiful land. They will have a temple of magnificent splendor and also possess the old priesthood with apostles, prophets, teachers, deacons, etc. From every name shall the believers be gathered by speedy messengers and then will Almighty God speak to the disobedient with thunder, lightning and destruction such as man has never before known."

If you don't recognize the fact that every single point in his prophecy corresponds exactly with the history of this church then you shouldn't be engaged in any way with debate regarding the LDS church.

Joseph Smith was born into a time when men tore God out of the heavens and slathered Him with the stench of the philosophies of men. He only found religions that preached the following: NO prophets, NO revelation and NO scripture. Joseph Smith presented the Gospel in the exact same way that it was done in the Bible: he brought forth prophets, apostles, teachers, deacons, priests. He brought forth authority throught the laying on of hands. He also brought forth scripture (just like every single prophet in the Bible). The Book of Mormon teaches the exact same principles as the Bible and follows the exact same principles. This is objectivity. Can you demonstrate your objectivity by considering these points based on their merit alone, or will you resort to the all-to-common litany of seeking after evidence specifically to denounce these claims?

Just as God can never be reached except as He reveals Himself, the veracity of the Book of Mormon can never be established except by the spirit. I could talk for two years on intricate Chiastic structures that were written in the Book of Mormon before the author even knew Chiasmus existed. I could talk about the existence of towns along the desert route mentioned in the Book of Mormon that exist in modern Arabia. I could talk about all the unfulfilled biblical prophecies that the Book of Mormon fulfills. I could talk about the fact that over a dozen men handled the gold plates and stood by (till their deaths) sworn testimonies that they truly exist despite their own efforts to bring down the church and even kill Joseph Smith. I could talk about recent discoveries in Mesoamerica that now substantiate claims made over 150 years ago. I could talk about DNA evidence that shows that Native Americans are related to indo-europeans and Semitic peoples. I could go on for years, but none of this is going to prove anything. If you want to believe in God, the Bible or the Book of Mormon you have to get down on your knees and pray about it.
So where is what I was asking for? :confused:
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Victor said:
. But as I said that there a) must have been people waiting for it
Why what value does that give? that might be a criterion for your church but not theirs.

b) we should see some early writings showing this
I can not see why? I believe Jesus and the early church did expect other prophets To follow him. It was later that it was decided that it ended with the apostles.

c) there was always an authority to verify such things.
Why should they need greater authority than their own Prophets.


I don't mind recognizing them. But I need something to work with to do so.
If you don't mind recognizing them it would need to be on their Religions terms, Not your religions terms, They are not intending to be members of your church.

Neither you nor I need to recognise their Prophets unless we wish to accept the Mormon faith. I do not intend to do this, so I remain open minded about their Prophet.
In the same way I do not expect them to accept all my beliefs or my churches rules.

Terry______________________________
Blessed are the merciful, mercy shall be shown unto them.



 

SoyLeche

meh...
Victor said:
I also noted this as something subjective (written prophecy) turned objective thru the prophet. But as I said that there a) must have been people waiting for it b) we should see some early writings showing this c) there was always an authority to verify such things.
Honestly, the only person in history that I can think of that fits these criteria would be Christ, and even that is debatable. Who was waiting for Isaiah? What writings from before his time point to his coming? With what authority was he verified? Are there any of the prophets in the bible that fit?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Terrywoodenpic said:
Why what value does that give? that might be a criterion for your church but not theirs.


But it is a criterion of their Church Terry. A prophet comes now, what do you think they use to verify if it's legit or not?

Terrywoodenpic said:
I can not see why? I believe Jesus and the early church did expect other prophets To follow him. It was later that it was decided that it ended with the apostles.


I have no qualms here and I think you may have misunderstood me. As I said before, if there is nothing in writing to tell the believer it was coming then there must be something else we can base it off of. There has always been "something" you can use to measure with outside of personal interpretation, personal feelings, etc.
BTW, the catholic church has plenty prophets: http://web.archive.org/web/20041028090404/http:/myweb.tiscali.co.uk/praeternatural/

Terrywoodenpic said:
Why should they need greater authority than their own Prophets.


They don't. I'm simply saying that is not how things have been done throught both Christianity and Judaism. Not only that but as soon as a prophet comes they adopt the same exact method that is already in existance. In otherwords, they will use that prophet and their leaders to measure other prophets validity.

Terrywoodenpic said:
If you don't mind recognizing them it would need to be on their Religions terms, Not your religions terms, They are not intending to be members of your church.


As I said above, their terms are the same.

Terrywoodenpic said:
Neither you nor I need to recognise their Prophets unless we wish to accept the Mormon faith. I do not intend to do this, so I remain open minded about their Prophet.
In the same way I do not expect them to accept all my beliefs or my churches rules.
So do I. But you can't blame me for wanting more then just an interpretation.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
So where is what I was asking for? :confused:
You asked for objective evidence to support the Mormon claim. My post is full of objectivity. Do you know what objectivity is?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
SoyLeche said:
Honestly, the only person in history that I can think of that fits these criteria would be Christ, and even that is debatable. Who was waiting for Isaiah? What writings from before his time point to his coming?
I thought I made this clear already. If there is no writings then give me a firework show or a authoritative institution. In every situation there was one or the other. Except the LDS prophet.

SoyLeche said:
With what authority was he verified?
Judaic authority.

SoyLeche said:
Are there any of the prophets in the bible that fit?
I'd have to dig for them but whether I can find some or not is irrelevant after the point I made above.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
dan said:
You asked for objective evidence to support the Mormon claim. My post is full of objectivity. Do you know what objectivity is?
No, I just like posting the word cause it sounds pretty. C'mon Dan don't get smarmy. Let's have a civil conversation here. Go back and read what I'm looking for. I've repeated myself enough times.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Victor said:
I thought I made this clear already. If there is no writings then give me a firework show or a authoritative institution. In every situation there was one or the other. Except the LDS prophet.

Can't you answer my question?

Judaic authority.
Do you have any evidence that Isaiah or any of the other prophets were verified by Judaic authority while they were living?
I'd have to dig for them but whether I can find some or not is irrelevant after the point I made above.
Just explain in detail one of them for me, so that I know what you are looking for.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
SoyLeche said:
Can't you answer my question?

Do you have any evidence that Isaiah or any of the other prophets were verified by Judaic authority while they were living?
Just explain in detail one of them for me, so that I know what you are looking for.
Let me see if I am understanding you properly. Are you asking me for evidence that Judaism finds Isaiah as a legit prophet?
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Victor said:
Let me see if I am understanding you properly. Are you asking me for evidence that Judaism finds Isaiah as a legit prophet?
I'm asking why one of Isaiah's contemporaries or even someone a century later would find him a legit prophet.

If I could have one example of each of your criteria from the Bible, I may finally get what in the heck you are asking for.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Victor said:
We live in a world where objectivity (tangible) and subjectivity (spiritual) is what the senses and what faith can pick up on. To me, I see LDS theology working mostly and exclusively in subjectivity as means to show people they are legit and the real deal. This is unique in prophets nutshell. The isrealites had an objective means to test the prophets. They had the leaders of the Church and written and inspired documents. Give me something objective, that's all I ask.
I apologize. You already offered the answer in your text. We also have leaders of the church and written and inspired documents. I guess you're right about that.

Objectivity, by the way, does not mean tangibility. The definition of objectivity is this:

of, relating to, or being an object , phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.

My earlier post is the very definition of objectivity. I described conditions and phenomena in the realm of sensible experience, independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
SoyLeche said:
I'm asking why one of Isaiah's contemporaries or even someone a century later would find him a legit prophet.

If I could have one example of each of your criteria from the Bible, I may finally get what in the heck you are asking for.
Please don't pretend like you don't know what I am looking for SL. Back in [url=http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27110&page=7&pp=10[/url]]post#61 it was readily apparent and nutshell understood it just fine when he said,

nutshell said:
....I'll try to find the evidence for such a group and get back to you.
I am trying to stay charitable by tolerating your constant red herrings. But instead you persist in understanding me while not answering the question. The topic of the thread is wanting to know LDS beliefs not Catholic beliefs. So will you finally attempt to answer the question? Or can you only do so by asking me questions back?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
dan said:
I apologize. You already offered the answer in your text. We also have leaders of the church and written and inspired documents. I guess you're right about that.

Objectivity, by the way, does not mean tangibility. The definition of objectivity is this:

of, relating to, or being an object , phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.

My earlier post is the very definition of objectivity. I described conditions and phenomena in the realm of sensible experience, independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.
Ok, so where is the data that the people in the 1700's or 1800's had in the realm of sensible experience, independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers?
 
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