What does God want from you?

[Trailblazer]

That's just what you say.

and what you say is just what you say.

 

[ppp]

and what you say is just what you say.

As you keep insisting, that is just your opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

As you keep insisting, that is just your opinion.

It is what you said since you posted it here.
Is there a reason you feel a need to be argumentative? That must get really tiring.

 

[blü 2]

Mmm .. but we don't all interpret it in the same light .. it's only words on a page.


Of course .. but I believe it is basically true, but inaccurate .. it is an old document.

Well, we can agree it's an old document. But whether it's simply inaccurate, or seriously inaccurate, well, there we may differ. For example, there is still no archaeological evidence for the Exodus, no Pharaoh identified, no evidence or even hints in Egypt, so the major question is still whether it's history in any sense at all.

Was Moses found in the bullrushes? Or is that part of the story "borrowed" from the tale of Sargon of Akkad? Why would Pharaoh's daughter call the child "Son". which is what "Moses" means in Egyptian (as in Ramses = Ra moses = Son of Ra). Two sets of magicians turning the Nile into real blood and back twice in an hour or so would wipe out all fish, for example. Did the plagues happen as described, or are they gathered from happenings over a long period? Why would an omnipotent God play around with the problem as [he] does in the story?

There's much to doubt.

 

[ppp]

It is what you said since you posted it here.
Is there a reason you feel a need to be argumentative? That must get really tiring.

What is argumentative about it?

 

[Trailblazer]

What is argumentative about it?

It is argumentative because you are arguing with me.

You said: That's just what you say.
I said: and what you say is just what you say.
You said: As you keep insisting, that is just your opinion.

What you say is not my opinion. It is what you say.

 

[ppp]

It is argumentative because you are arguing with me.

 

[Trailblazer]

I could say the same thing about you.
It is argumentative because you are arguing with me.

 

[ppp]

I could say the same thing about you.
It is argumentative because you are arguing with me.

Um. You already said it in #1,146. Are you drunk?

 

[Trailblazer]

Um. You already said it in #1,146. Are you drunk?

As usual, you completely missed my point.
My point was that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Baha'is do not drink alcohol.

 

[ppp]

My point was that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Yup. I am the gander.

Baha'is do not drink alcohol.

Well, not supposed to.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, not supposed to.

I cannot speak for other Baha'is but I never drink alcohol.
I never had any desire to drink alcohol and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to.

 

[ppp]

I cannot speak for other Baha'is but I never drink alcohol.
I never had any desire to drink alcohol and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to.

I can imagine why people want to do things that disinterest me.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can imagine why people want to do things that disinterest me.

Good point. I can imagine that too, although I cannot imagine wanting to do those things.

 

[ppp]

Good point. I can imagine that too, although I cannot imagine wanting to do those things.

For me it's usually taste. There are so many tasty spirits, and combinations of spirits out there. I am trying to approximate Chartreuse right now. It's so good, but it is expensive and hard to get. Sometimes it's for relaxation. And sometimes for fun.

 

[Trailblazer]

For me it's usually taste. There are so many tasty spirits, and combinations of spirits out there. I am trying to approximate Chartreuse right now. It's so good, but it is expensive and hard to get. Sometimes it's for relaxation. And sometimes for fun.

I can remember when I was a teenager, before I was a Baha'i, I never liked the taste of alcohol. I tried it a few times to be social with my friends but I did not like being drunk. Of course people can drink for relaxation or fun and not drink to get drunk and there are alcoholic drinks that are tasty.

 

[ppp]

I can remember when I was a teenager, before I was a Baha'i, I never liked the taste of alcohol. I tried it a few times to be social with my friends but I did not like being drunk. Of course people can drink for relaxation or fun and not drink to get drunk and there are alcoholic drinks that are tasty.

I was lukewarm towards alcohol till my late 20s, when I began developing a taste for bitter things like radicchio, rapini, beer and dark chocolate. After that I discovered that I like scotch during a week in Edinburgh. We went to a cocktail class this afternoon where they used alcohols from a local distillery that incorporates local flora. So good!

 

[Trailblazer]

None seem to like the one from Isaiah 45 (below) that says God is the source of darkness and evil, so it generally takes somebody like me who doesn't consider any of it authoritative to point out the contradiction.

Anyway, do you have anything to say about, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil"? The believers job it to concoct some answer that tries to make that say something else, because he has generally rejected the idea a priori as an act of faith, so of course it doesn't mean what it says. Since the skeptic has no such need, he doesn't work that semantic magic on such comments to make them say what they don't say.

Isaiah 45:7
NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.
ESV I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

According to the verses God causes the light to shine and God brings good times as well as hard times. God makes well-being as well as creating calamity. Why is it that you only look at part of that verse that says God is the source of darkness and evil? Why can't you see that the verse is saying that God is also the source of good times? Is it because you don't want to give God any credit?

The text you provided was Baha'u'llah instructions on how to honor God. That's what all prophets, messengers and gurus claiming to speak for a god do, which is different from what Buddha or a contemporary atheistic humanist would teach because the latter isn't saying that a god told him to tell you how to be pious (scrupulously observant of a god's instructions).

Yes, prophets and messengers tell us to honor God but that is not what I cited from Baha'u'llah.
What text are you referring to?

Yes, I know. That was part of my argument about the lack of relevance of even updated messages. That's information man needed to know and take seriously. Imagine how helpful such a message would have been if people believed it came from a god and not just man and his science, which many don't trust.

The 'updated' message of the Baha'i Faith is that science is just as important for humanity to progress as is religion.

Science and Religion​

​

Bahá’ís reject the notion that there is an inherent conflict between science and religion, a notion that became prevalent in intellectual discourse at a time when the very conception of each system of knowledge was far from adequate. The harmony of science and religion is one of the fundamental principles of the Bahá’í Faith, which teaches that religion, without science, soon degenerates into superstition and fanaticism, while science without religion becomes merely the instrument of crude materialism. “Religion,” according to the Bahá’í writings, “is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore, it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive.”1 “Science is the first emanation from God toward man. All created things embody the potentiality of material perfection, but the power of intellectual investigation and scientific acquisition is a higher virtue specialized to man alone. Other beings and organisms are deprived of this potentiality and attainment.”2​

​

So far as earthly existence is concerned, many of the greatest achievements of religion have been moral in character. Through its teachings and through the examples of human lives illumined by these teachings, masses of people in all ages and lands have developed the capacity to love, to give generously, to serve others, to forgive, to trust in God, and to sacrifice for the common good. Social structures and institutional systems have been devised that translate these moral advances into the norms of social life on a vast scale. In the final analysis, the spiritual impulses set in motion by the Founders of the world’s religions—the Manifestations of God—have been the chief influence in the civilizing of human character.​

​

‘Abdu’l-Bahá has described science as the “most noble” of all human virtues and “the discoverer of all things”.3 Science has enabled society to separate fact from conjecture. Further, scientific capabilities—of observing, of measuring, of rigorously testing ideas—have allowed humanity to construct a coherent understanding of the laws and processes governing physical reality, as well as to gain insights into human conduct and the life of society.​

​

Taken together, science and religion provide the fundamental organizing principles by which individuals, communities, and institutions function and evolve.​

​

Science and Religion | An Ever-Advancing Civilization | God and His Creation | What Bahá’ís Believe​

Imagine how helpful such a message would be if people believed it came from God.

Why not if that religion is getting messages from gods? You don't seem to realize that you're making the case that these messages are about religion, which offers no answers about climate change or anything else except how to please God as the world goes on cooking.

Religion does not have to address climate change since scientists are perfectly capable of figuring that out.

I disagree. You provided excerpts. Yes, this is an updated message, but it's still instructions on loving God and one another, just not called that explicitly.

The message of Baha'u'llah is much more than instructions on loving God and one another. That was my point.

Remove the third and fourth, and it's basically a humanist position derived from the humanist sensibilities of the Enlightenment that went into writing the American Constitution a century earlier and now called God's will:

1 The oneness of humanity.
2 The independent investigation of truth.
3 The common foundation of all religions.
4 The essential harmony of science and religion.
5 The equality of men and women.
6 The elimination of prejudice of all kinds.
7 Universal peace upheld by a world federation of nations.

All these principles are certainly not in the American Constitution.

 

[ppp]

Bahá’ís reject the notion that there is an inherent conflict between science and religion, a notion that became prevalent in intellectual discourse at a time when the very conception of each system of knowledge was far from adequate.

The Baha'i hold that there are writings that are unquestionably true.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'i hold that there are writings that are unquestionably true.

That is correct. We believe that the Writings of the central figures of our Faith are true.