What does God want from you?

[ppp]

A better question is why God would be responsible to humans.
Responsibility implies accountability....
Logically speaking, why would an omnipotent God be accountable to humans?
Why on earth would the Creator be accountable to His creation? Is a painter accountable to the painting he creates?

Not being responsible does not mean we get nothing from God, but what we get is by God's grace alone, not because God is in any way obligated to us.

And yet my question was, is, and remains, If (as you say) your god is responsible for nothing, then why should I place any value on your god?

 

[Trailblazer]

Fear is a petty tool that is being used to gain followers. I know several people who have told me that the only reason they follow and believe religion is out of Fear.

Following a religion out of fear is not the same as fearing God. Nobody should follow a religion out of fear.

Are you God fearing?

Those that really know God know that God has never ever been one to be Feared. Quit Fearing.

I am God fearing since God is one to be feared.
Since you know nothing about God, except what you make up, you don't realize that.

Those that really know God know that God has always been one to be feared.
Fear of God does not mean fearing what God is going to do to you.

When the Bible refers to the “fear of the Lord,” it means having a deep respect, reverence and awe for God's power and authority. Rather than causing someone to be afraid of God, a proper “fear of the Lord” leads one to love Him.

What Does the Fear of the Lord Mean?

One biblical phrase that has troubled many people is the command to fear God. What does “fear of the Lord

lifehopeandtruth.com

Fear of God is mankind's greatest protection.

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it. It is incumbent upon the kings and the spiritual leaders of the world to lay fast hold on religion, inasmuch as through it the fear of God is instilled in all else but Him.”
Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, pp. 27-28

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet my question was, is, and remains, If (as you say) your god is responsible for nothing, then why should I place any value on your god?

I said God has no responsibilities towards humans, I did not say God is responsible for nothing.
God's responsibilities are to rule and maintain all of existence.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have found no religion that really understands God at all. Religions were created by mankind, by people. That is who they reflect.

So much is said about God that simply is not true.

Which religions believe the Scriptures of the other religions weren't written by people? And which religions don't believe the way is or isn't portrayed in the Scriptures of the other religions? Christianity doesn't accept any of the other religions except Judaism. Islam nor the Baha'is accept the Bible as being literally true and reject those Christians that interpret their Scriptures in a way that makes Jesus God. And I argue constantly with Baha'is on how they reject the verses that say Jesus came back to life.

So, all these religions kind of agree with you... when it comes to what you say about the other religions. Of course, their religion is different... to them, it is the truth.

And yet my question was, is, and remains, If (as you say) your god is responsible for nothing, then why should I place any value on your god?

Like we're a painting? If a God did create us, then it's more like we're robots or even androids, made to think and feel, but not given enough brain power to do what's right. Then our creator blames us for "f ing" up?

But let's go with a painter, a house painter. If the painter does a bad job, do we thank and reward the painter? Well, who thinks this creator of the Earth and the animals, and the people has done a good job? Only those that have fallen for the excuses that have supposedly given by the creator. Except those excuses were written by people, and then pushed onto other people as being true.

 

[Trailblazer]

If a God did create us, then it's more like we're robots or even androids, made to think and feel, but not given enough brain power to do what's right. Then our creator blames us for "f ing" up?

Humans are not robots. God gave humans rational souls and free will to choose between good and evil.
Humans are thus fully responsible for everything they do. God bears absolutely no responsibility for human choices and actions.

But let's go with a painter, a house painter. If the painter does a bad job, do we thank and reward the painter? Well, who thinks this creator of the Earth and the animals, and the people has done a good job? Only those that have fallen for the excuses that have supposedly given by the creator. Except those excuses were written by people, and then pushed onto other people as being true.

God created man good and some men messed up.
Now some men blame God for their choices and actions, since they cannot take responsibility for themselves.

God needs no excuses since God is infallible so God cannot make any mistakes. Only humans need excuses since that are fallible and make mistakes.
Logic 101.

 

[Truthseeker]

Fear is a petty tool that is being used to gain followers. I know several people who have told me that the only reason they follow and believe religion is out of Fear.

Are you God fearing?

Those that really know God know that God has never ever been one to be Feared. Quit Fearing. Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!!

"You have asked the exact meaning of the term 'Fear of God' mentioned in Bahá'í Sacred Writings: It often means awe, but has also other connotations such as reverence, terror and fear."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 13, 1940)
Various, "Lights of Guidance", 18.789.1

"You ask him about the fear of God: perhaps the friends do not realize that the majority of human beings need the element of fear in order to discipline their conduct? Only a relatively very highly evolved soul would always be disciplined by love alone. Fear of punishment, fear of the anger of God if we do evil, are needed to keep people's feet on the right path. Of course we should love God — but we must fear Him in the sense of a child fearing the righteous anger and chastisement of a parent; not cringe before Him as before a tyrant, but know His mercy exceeds His Justice!"
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, July 26, 1946: Bahá'í Education, A Compilation, compiled by the Universal House of Justice)
Various, "Lights of Guidance", 18.794.1

 

[ppp]

I said God has no responsibilities towards humans,.

If (as you say) your god has no responsibility towards humans, then why should I place any value on your god?

 

[Trailblazer]

If (as you say) your god has no responsibility towards humans, then why should I place any value on your god?

Did I ever say you should place value on God? That is your choice since you have free will to choose.
If you need a God to be responsible towards you then belief in God is not for you.

 

[Link]

You do not understand. God is not hiding anything. God shows it all. Look around you. Unlike holy books, God's actions can not be altered by mankind.

I have found no religion that really understands God at all. Religions were created by mankind, by people. That is who they reflect.

You won't find a religion that truly understands because you impose your views on them. Therefore even if God does explain everything perfectly, because it does not suit you it would be wrong.

Revelations can get altered but he can always send newer revelation that would not. The Quran is not altered.

There is no reason for God to not explain things in your way if your way was the truth. But you won't find proof from God for your viewpoint so you say God won't speak to nor guide mankind through holy books.

 

[ppp]

Did I ever say you should place value on God? That is your choice since you have free will to choose.

When someone asks you about "should" they are not asking you about free will. They are asking about what you think they ought to view as a compelling motivation.

Why should I cross the road? To get to the other side.
Why should I wear red suspenders? To keep my pants up.
Why should I value my bed? To make sleep more comfortable.
Why should I value a secular humanist society? Because it best exemplifies my goals of a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights.

Why should I value your god?

 

[Trailblazer]

They are asking about what you think they ought to view as a compelling motivation.

Why should I value your god?

When you value something, you consider it important and worthwhile. God is worth valuing because of His attributes.

Some of God's attributes are as follows:
Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, All-Good, All-Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient.

 

[ppp]

When you value something, you consider it important and worthwhile.

I agree. Definitionally.

God is worth valuing because of His attributes.

I understand the words in that statement.

Some of God's attributes are as follows:
Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, All-Good, All-Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient.

Of the attributes you listed the only ones that I find to be of value are: gracious, merciful, just, righteous, forgiving, and patient. But they only have value or meaning in the context of some sort of moral or social responsibility. Without that context, they are just random.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of the attributes you listed the only ones that I find to be of value are: gracious, merciful, just, righteous, forgiving, and patient. But they only have value or meaning in the context of some sort of moral or social responsibility. Without that context, they are just random.

Yes, those attributes you listed have value and meaning in the context of some sort of moral or social responsibility of humans.
Humans are morally and socially responsible towards other other humans.
God is not morally or socially responsible towards humans because God has no responsibilities towards humans.

God sets the standards of morality for human behavior through Messengers who reveal teachings and laws.
God is not subject to being moral because God is not a human and God does not have behavior.

moral: concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character. moral means - Google Search​

​

Morality is the belief that some behaviour is right and acceptable and that other behaviour is wrong. ... A morality is a system of principles and values concerning people's behaviour, which is generally accepted by a society or by a particular group of people.​

Morality definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary​

God cannot be socially responsible because God is not a social being.

 

[ppp]

Yes, those attributes you listed have value and meaning in the context of some sort of moral or social responsibility of humans.
Humans are morally and socially responsible towards other other humans.
God is not morally or socially responsible towards humans because God has no responsibilities towards humans.

You provided a list of words (gracious, merciful, just, righteous, forgiving, and patient) whose respective meanings and values depend upon a context of moral or social responsibility between social animals (humans being one of those animals). Being outside of that context, those human meanings cannot apply to your god.

What are the definitions of those words that are devoid of moral or social context between social animals?

• gracious
• merciful
• just
• righteous
• forgiving
• patient

 

[muhammad_isa]

You provided a list of words (gracious, merciful, just, righteous, forgiving, and patient) whose respective meanings and values depend upon a context of moral or social responsibility between social animals..

..and you understand them..
What is the point of G-d communicating with people in a language that we
can't understand? No point, quite obviously!

It doesn't mean that those definitions apply to G-d in exactly the same way as they apply to us.

 

[ppp]

..and you understand them..

And she says that the human meanings that I understand do not apply to her god. Because human meanings for those words depend on a social and moral context towards humans, and her special god-meanings do not. If you do not agree with her, then talk to her. I don't debate her on the feasibility of your version of a god, and I won't debate you on the feasibility of her version of a god.

 

[Trailblazer]

You provided a list of words (gracious, merciful, just, righteous, forgiving, and patient) whose respective meanings and values depend upon a context of moral or social responsibility between social animals (humans being one of those animals). Being outside of that context, those human meanings cannot apply to your god.

Gracious, merciful, just, righteous, forgiving, and patient do not depend upon a context of moral or social responsibility between social animals. Being outside of that context, they apply to God, since they are attributes of God that were revealed in scriptures.

What are the definitions of those words that are devoid of moral or social context between social animals?

• gracious
• merciful
• just
• righteous
• forgiving
• patient

The definitions of those words are the same whether are applied to humans or God (and thus devoid of moral or social context between social animals).

Humans were made in the image of God, so humans have the 'potential' to reflect all of God's attributes, except the attributes that are unique to God (e.g. Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial). Thus humans have the potential to be Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, and Patient. Humans reflect those attributes to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual they are.

 

[ppp]

Gracious, merciful, just, righteous, forgiving, and patient do not depend upon a context of moral or social

I reject your bald assertion. I am happy to discuss entertain the idea, but only if you are willing and able to put the work in.

And yes, I did read the rest of your post where you simply repeat you assertion in different words.

Do you know how to build an argument? It requires, at the least, that you begin with premises that you and your interlocutor agree are true and build from there establishing non fallacious connections.

It is, of course, up to you whether you can or will do that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I reject your bald assertion. I am happy to discuss entertain the idea, but only if you are willing and able to put the work in.

And yes, I did read the rest of your post where you simply repeat you assertion in different words.

Do you know how to build an argument? It requires, at the least, that you begin with premises that you and your interlocutor agree are true and build from there establishing non fallacious connections.

It is, of course, up to you whether you can or will do that.

The following is not a bald assertion since it is not an assertion.

I said:
Gracious, merciful, just, righteous, forgiving, and patient do not depend upon a context of moral or social.
They are attributes of God that were revealed in scriptures.

What I said above is a religious belief that can never be proven, and as such it is not subject to a logical argument that has premises and conclusions.
Only if you are able to entertain the idea that scriptures reveal the attributes of God do we have any common ground to build on.

 

[Bird123]

I think so, although you are unaware of that.

First you have to have Real Truth before you can place it in the world.
You have no way to discover the Real Truth about God.
What you believe about God is only what you imagine. It has no basis in reality.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

WE are walking in the desert and I bump into you. You ask me, have you found any water anywhere. I say go east 5 miles and there is an oasis with plenty of water. You can fill up all your empty canteens. Your answer is What you believe is your imagination. It has no basis in reality.

The answer is if you really seek, you will take the journey. Your journey will only be a Belief until you Discover God or the water.

The Real Truth is that God is not what you seek. You fear God and are much more comfortable others do it for you. Maybe, you aren't up to the task of advanced thinking, searching and effort it would take to really understand and find God. Anyway. it is easier to label the journey impossible and stay comfortable within your box of Beliefs.

This is perfectly OK! You see. It has never ever been about Discovering God. You already know God whether you realize this or not. There will come a time when you will know this and it will not come from messengers. As for myself, when I Discovered so much of religion did not add up, I had to Discover the Real Truth about God because it is about knowing and not mere believing.

No one is going to make demands on you. Be who you must. It's a part of the plan! On the other hand, sometimes one must venture beyond one's comfort zone in order to Discover anything at all.

Remember, it's free choices. Our choices and actions show God and the world what we know and what we need to learn!! You really need no crutches with God. I say put them aside and walk. On the other hand, your journey has always been in your hands. Like God, you have my Unconditional Love and Kindness regardless of any choices you decide to make.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!