What does God want from you?

[Truthseeker]

What is confusing? He quoted me out of context, trying to make it look like Baha'is solicit money from its followers.
I am as cool as a cucumber.

Post #1677 made it clear what you meant. I'm a little tired right now, I think I should retire from this conversation.

 

[danieldemol]

What is confusing? He quoted me out of context, trying to make it look like Baha'is solicit money from its followers.
I am as cool as a cucumber.

Again patently false in my view, find a single mention of 'solicitation' by me ETA in context of claiming Baha'i do it, I double dare you.

 

[Truthseeker]

So in my view if you are concerned with the truth you will admit that she answered that question in the negative and was therefore wrong.

This is about what the Baha'i Faith teaches, not about whether @Trailblazer is perfect or not. Am I clear enough yet?

 

[Trailblazer]

Who cares? The second sentence is true. It is not about whether the first sentence contradicts the second. Was her sentence structure right or not is not an important question here.

Good catch. You are correct. The first sentence contradicts the second.

I should not have said:
"Nobody in the Baha'i Faith administration collects money. Any contributions to the Baha'i Faith are strictly voluntary."

I should have said:
"Nobody in the Baha'i Faith administration solicits money. Any contributions to the Baha'i Faith are strictly voluntary."

I was in a hurry and I made a mistake. To err is human. I corrected my mistake later so my post would be clear.

 

[Trailblazer]

In my view if you bother to read what she quoted from @Bird123 it was not the issue that was asked about, Bird123 states, ' So what you are telling me is that baha has never collected any money?' NOT 'did Baha solicit funds'

Why not let @Bird123 explain what he meant? He is the one who wrote it.

The important point is that I thought he meant solicit funds. If I was wrong I am willing to admit it.

 

[danieldemol]

This is about what the Baha'i Faith teaches, not about whether @Trailblazer is perfect or not. Am I clear enough yet?

The Baha'i faith teaches the "right of God" known as HuquqAllah. I do not require @Trailblazer to be perfect.

'And now concerning the poor, thou hast written to ask whether it is permissible to pay them out of the Right of God. This is conditional upon permission having been granted. In each locality where the Right of God is being received, details of it must be submitted to His exalted presence together with a statement describing the position of the needy ones. Verily He doeth what He willeth and ordaineth what He pleaseth. If permission were to be given universally it would lead to strife and give rise to trouble.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Ḥuqúqu’lláh—The Right of God, Pages 34-35

 

[danieldemol]

Why not let @Bird123 explain what he meant? He is the one who wrote it.

The important point is that I thought he meant solicit funds. If I was wrong I am willing to admit it.

I'm not holding @Bird123 back, I suspect that once the ad-hominem started flying they were off to grab pop-corn lol

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'i faith teaches the "right of God" known as HuquqAllah. I do not require @Trailblazer to be perfect.

What are you bringing up the Ḥuqúqu'lláh? How is that related to me being perfect?

Ḥuqúqu'lláh (Arabic: ﺣﻘﻮﻕ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ, "Right of God") is a voluntary wealth tax paid by adherents of the Baháʼí Faith to support the work of the religion.[1] Individuals following the practice calculate 19% of their discretionary income (after-tax income minus essential expenses) and send it to the head of the religion, which since 1963 has been the Universal House of Justice.[2][3]

Purpose

The Ḥuquq'ullah is not meant to be a donation, but is rather meant to be a claim by God for support of the interests of all people. It is partly used to equalize wealth across different parts of the world. The payment of the Ḥuquq'ullah is also meant to increase the spiritual link between the religion's central institutions and the individual. This offering is to be considered separate from giving to the various Baháʼí funds and takes precedence over them.[5] Furthermore, the Ḥuquq'ullah should not be solicited by anyone, and no payments of it can be accepted unless the individual was doing so "with the utmost joy".[8]

Huqúqu'lláh - Wikipedia

 

[danieldemol]

What are you bringing up the Ḥuqúqu'lláh?

It is a form of money the Baha'i administration recieves

How is that related to me being perfect?

Its not. I was typing hasty and forgot the paragraph as I was responding to a statement by @Truthseeker

Ḥuqúqu'lláh (Arabic: ﺣﻘﻮﻕ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ, "Right of God") is a voluntary wealth tax paid by adherents of the Baháʼí Faith to support the work of the religion.[1] Individuals following the practice calculate 19% of their discretionary income (after-tax income minus essential expenses) and send it to the head of the religion, which since 1963 has been the Universal House of Justice.[2][3]

Purpose

The Ḥuquq'ullah is not meant to be a donation, but is rather meant to be a claim by God for support of the interests of all people. It is partly used to equalize wealth across different parts of the world. The payment of the Ḥuquq'ullah is also meant to increase the spiritual link between the religion's central institutions and the individual. This offering is to be considered separate from giving to the various Baháʼí funds and takes precedence over them.[5] Furthermore, the Ḥuquq'ullah should not be solicited by anyone, and no payments of it can be accepted unless the individual was doing so "with the utmost joy".[8]

Huqúqu'lláh - Wikipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

So what you are telling me is that baha has never collected any money?

In my view if you bother to read what she quoted from @Bird123 it was not the issue that was asked about, Bird123 states, ' So what you are telling me is that baha has never collected any money?' NOT 'did Baha solicit funds'

I don't know what the problem is about the Baha'i Faith collecting and asking for donations to a fund to support and promote their religion. But some Baha'is do give wrong and misleading information. And I don't see why a Baha'i would then accuse you of a "smear" campaign.

Here's some Baha'i quotes about their fund...

All the friends of God ... should contribute to the extent possible, however modest their offering may be. God doth not burden a soul beyond its capacity . . . O Friends of God! Be ye assured that in place of these contributions, your agriculture, your industry, and your commerce will be blessed by manifold increases, with goodly gifts and bestowals. He who cometh with one goodly deed will receive a tenfold reward. There is no doubt that the living Lord will abundantly confirm those who expend their wealth in His path.​

​

All donations and contributions should be offered to the Treasurer of the Assembly, for the express purpose of promoting the interests of the Cause, throughout that locality or country.​

​

As the progress and extension of spiritual activities is dependent and conditioned upon material means, it is of absolute necessity that immediately after the establishment of local as well as national Spiritual Assemblies, a Bahá’í Fund be established, to be placed under the exclusive control of the Spiritual Assembly.​

​

Even though Shoghi Effendi would urge every believer to sacrifice as much as possible for the sake of contributing towards the fund of the National Assembly, yet he would discourage the friends to incur debts for that purpose.​

​

It is the sacred obligation of every conscientious and faithful servant of Bahá’u’lláh who desires to see His Cause advance, to contribute freely and generously for the increase of that Fund.​

​

A "sacred obligation", "urge" to give as much as possible, "absolute necessity" to establish a fund. The Baha'i Faith needs money from it followers. And by the language they use, they are making it clear they want it and expect it. But again, what's wrong with a religion asking for money from it followers? The problem is pretending they don't ask for it and don't collect it.

What they do with the money might bother some people. But how else would the beautiful temples be built, and the beautiful gardens maintained? If that's how the followers want their donations spent, it's okay by me.

 

[Trailblazer]

And I don't see why a Baha'i would then accuse you of a "smear" campaign.

That was the way I saw it at the time, before I understood what he was getting at.
Yes, Baha'is do collect money. Most major religions collect money because they need money to operate.

We all make mistakes....
Now that I understand, I duly apologize to @danieldemol for my misapprehension.

 

[Bird123]

It is a belief that you are placing truth in the world because it is not a fact that you are placing truth in the world.

That is true. Religion might teach that we have free will, but free will simply is what it is.

Nobody in the Baha'i Faith administration solicits contributions. Any contributions to the Baha'i Faith are strictly voluntary.
Baha'is 'share' the message since that is what Baha'u'llah enjoined us to do, just as Jesus told his disciples to carry the gospel message far and wide.
Baha'is do not seek out followers. The Baha'i Faith does not tell their people to spread their beliefs to gain followers. Baha'is are on their own to choose whether or not to share the message or not.

The Baha'i Faith does not value beliefs and faith above all else. We value deeds above all else.

“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.”​

​

“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156, 257​

​

76: O SON OF MY HANDMAID! Guidance hath ever been given by words, and now it is given by deeds. Every one must show forth deeds that are pure and holy, for words are the property of all alike, whereas such deeds as these belong only to Our loved ones. Strive then with heart and soul to distinguish yourselves by your deeds. In this wise We counsel you in this holy and resplendent tablet.​

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 48-49​

You have a belief system, not knowledge of God. You believe that you have knowledge of God through experience.

Everything in your life is based upon your belief system called Discovery. You believe you are Discovering something.

I can and do Discover many things on my own. Having a religion does not preclude living life and discovering and learning, which is exactly what my religion enjoins us to do, since the purpose of our life in this world is to learn and grow spiritually.

Because you say something doesn't make it so especially when so many of your beliefs are not reality.

Actions and choices speak to who one is. Our actions and choices show God and the world what one knows and what one needs to learn. Deeds should never be served up so others might believe anything. Our actions and choices, like God's actions and choices speak to who one is. Coercing and manipulating others by advertising good deeds are petty things that mankind holds so dear. They do not bring the best results.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Give it up for lost. Your smear campaign against the Baha'i Faith is obvious to any just person. What do you get out of this?
I can say one thing for @Bird123. He is sincere and honest and he is not on a smear campaign.

Implied soliciting exists. Example: The boy scouts had a big sign out. Free car wash. If you get that free car wash is it really free? When they look at you with hungry eyes, you know they want a donation. How many people really got a free car wash? It would surprise me if anyone did.

Baha might not have asked for a donation but was it implied? Did they use the funds to spread the religion? Did they give the money back to the people? Did they feed starving people? Was the preacher living in a million dollar house?

Seeking answers take lots of questions from all sides. Further, truth will not always be an agreeable thing. Truth whether agreeable or not will never justify ignoring the truth.

I'm afraid I do not read everyone's responses. I do try to read all sent to me. Smear campaigns are bad. First, it should be determined if it is smear. Speaking Truth should never be considered smear. Being pointed in the right direction is a gift.

Truth must always be questioned. Even long held truth must be questioned. If not questioned, one day one might Discover all they had all along were beliefs. Example: At one point the truth was that the smallest part of an element was an atom. It was later Discovered this was not truth. I say Question everything. Correct errors. If things do not fit your beliefs, seek out the Real Truth and continue to Question.

We are not meant to believe. WE are meant to know!!! Beliefs are just a patch to cover the unknown knowledge. Beliefs are the beginning of the journey not the end.

Being mistaken is never a bad thing. It is part of the journey to Discover what the best choices really are. On the other hand, correcting the errors is a must. Can one ever Discover truth without correcting the errors along the way? Of course not!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Why not let @Bird123 explain what he meant? He is the one who wrote it.

The important point is that I thought he meant solicit funds. If I was wrong I am willing to admit it.

I do not see solicit in my reply. It really doesn't matter whether it was solicited or not. The money is doing the same thing. It is spreading a religion. It is gaining followers thereby making more money. Further, one can solicit without saying the words. One can imply a donation was required just by passing around a donation plate or by even having a donation plate out for people to see or by telling people we need money to pass the word around. It's all the same thing.


One can hide in language or words, however it will not hide what is actually going on. Like I said before. You can put lipstick on a pig, however that doesn't change the fact that it is a pig.

God is big on what is. Look beyond everything but what is. That is where you will find God and God's actions.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I don't know what the problem is about the Baha'i Faith collecting and asking for donations to a fund to support and promote their religion. But some Baha'is do give wrong and misleading information. And I don't see why a Baha'i would then accuse you of a "smear" campaign.

Here's some Baha'i quotes about their fund...

All the friends of God ... should contribute to the extent possible, however modest their offering may be. God doth not burden a soul beyond its capacity . . . O Friends of God! Be ye assured that in place of these contributions, your agriculture, your industry, and your commerce will be blessed by manifold increases, with goodly gifts and bestowals. He who cometh with one goodly deed will receive a tenfold reward. There is no doubt that the living Lord will abundantly confirm those who expend their wealth in His path.​

​

All donations and contributions should be offered to the Treasurer of the Assembly, for the express purpose of promoting the interests of the Cause, throughout that locality or country.​

​

As the progress and extension of spiritual activities is dependent and conditioned upon material means, it is of absolute necessity that immediately after the establishment of local as well as national Spiritual Assemblies, a Bahá’í Fund be established, to be placed under the exclusive control of the Spiritual Assembly.​

​

Even though Shoghi Effendi would urge every believer to sacrifice as much as possible for the sake of contributing towards the fund of the National Assembly, yet he would discourage the friends to incur debts for that purpose.​

​

It is the sacred obligation of every conscientious and faithful servant of Bahá’u’lláh who desires to see His Cause advance, to contribute freely and generously for the increase of that Fund.​

​

A "sacred obligation", "urge" to give as much as possible, "absolute necessity" to establish a fund. The Baha'i Faith needs money from it followers. And by the language they use, they are making it clear they want it and expect it. But again, what's wrong with a religion asking for money from it followers? The problem is pretending they don't ask for it and don't collect it.

What they do with the money might bother some people. But how else would the beautiful temples be built, and the beautiful gardens maintained? If that's how the followers want their donations spent, it's okay by me.

Very Very Good!!! There never was an argument. There was just a lack of proof. Believe or not, it now stares us all in the face. Very Good!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not see solicit in my reply. It really doesn't matter whether it was solicited or not. The money is doing the same thing. It is spreading a religion. It is gaining followers thereby making more money.

Baha'i Fund contributions are not used for spreading the religion.
Baha'i Fund contributions are not used for gaining followers, thereby making more money.
Individual Baha'is are not paid for teaching the Baha'i Faith, although sometimes Baha'i teaching activities are subsidized by Baha'i Fund..

Baha'i Fund contributions are used for various things. Bahá'í Funds - Bahai9

Further, one can solicit without saying the words. One can imply a donation was required just by passing around a donation plate or by even having a donation plate out for people to see or by telling people we need money to pass the word around. It's all the same thing.

That is true, but there is no donation plate in the Baha'i Faith. All contributions are strictly voluntary and never solicited.
The Baha'i institutions do tell us the Fund needs money when there is a shortfall, but all contributions are strictly voluntary.

Baha'i Fund contributions are used for various things., but not to pass the word around. Why do you think that?

One can hide in language or words, however it will not hide what is actually going on. Like I said before. You can put lipstick on a pig, however that doesn't change the fact that it is a pig.

You do not KNOW what is going on in the Baha'i Faith. I have been a Baha'i for 53 years so I know what is going on. Nothing is hidden except the names of Baha'is who contributed to the Fund and how much they contributed. Everything else is out in the open for all Baha'is to see.

God is big on what is. Look beyond everything but what is. That is where you will find God and God's actions.

What we see in this world are not God's actions. Everything we see is the result of human actions.
Nobody ever 'finds' God.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not see solicit in my reply. It really doesn't matter whether it was solicited or not. The money is doing the same thing. It is spreading a religion. It is gaining followers thereby making more money.

Baha'i Fund contributions are not used for spreading the religion.
Baha'i Fund contributions are not used for gaining followers, thereby making more money.
Individual Baha'is are not paid for teaching the Baha'i Faith, although sometimes Baha'i teaching activities are subsidized by the Baha'i Fund..

Baha'i Fund contributions are used for various things.

What does the Bahá'í Faith do with the money they collect?

Further, one can solicit without saying the words. One can imply a donation was required just by passing around a donation plate or by even having a donation plate out for people to see or by telling people we need money to pass the word around. It's all the same thing.

That is true, but there is no donation plate in the Baha'i Faith. All contributions are strictly voluntary and never solicited.
The Baha'i institutions do tell us the Fund needs money when there is a shortfall, but all contributions are strictly voluntary.

Baha'i Fund contributions are used for various things., but not to pass the word around. Why do you think that?

One can hide in language or words, however it will not hide what is actually going on. Like I said before. You can put lipstick on a pig, however that doesn't change the fact that it is a pig.

You do not KNOW what is going on in the Baha'i Faith. I have been a Baha'i for 53 years so I know what is going on. Nothing is hidden except the names of Baha'is who contributed to the Fund and how much they contributed. Everything else is out in the open for all Baha'is to see.

God is big on what is. Look beyond everything but what is. That is where you will find God and God's actions.

What we see in this world are not God's actions. Everything we see is the result of human actions.
Nobody ever 'finds' God.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Implied soliciting exists. Example: The boy scouts had a big sign out. Free car wash. If you get that free car wash is it really free? When they look at you with hungry eyes, you know they want a donation. How many people really got a free car wash? It would surprise me if anyone did.

No soliciting exists in the Baha'i Faith, implied or explicit.

Baha might not have asked for a donation but was it implied?

No, it is not implied that we must contribute to the Baha'i Fund.

Did they use the funds to spread the religion? Did they give the money back to the people? Did they feed starving people? Was the preacher living in a million dollar house?

The Baha'i Faith does not use the funds to spread the religion. Although some teaching efforts are subsidized, that is not where most of the money goes.
The Baha'i Faith has no preachers so there are no preachers living in million dollar houses.

There are multiple Baha’i Funds: Local Spiritual Assembly or incorporated entity funds; Regional Funds; National Funds; Continental and International Funds; and the Huququllah (which is collected on behalf of the House of Justice and is used to pay for costs and expenses internationally and also to assist Baha’i communities in some countries financially). Most Baha’is give directly to a Local and/or National Fund but may direct portions given to be directed to specific other funds.​

​

The funds are spent for the benefit of Baha’is and the Baha’i Faith around the world. Most Baha’is live in developing countries. Baha’i Funds are audited annually and local and national fund reports are provided annually. The primary types of expenditures are:​

​

-News bulletins and communications with local communities and members​

​

-Information processing, Internet, and communications​

​

-Publishing trusts and supplying associated materials for the benefit of Baha’is and others​

​

-Subsidizing conferences and conventions for Baha’is and others​

​

-Construction, maintenance, and operation of Baha’is properties (Baha’i Centers locally and nationally, Baha’i Houses of Worship, Baha’i Holy Sites-primarily in the Haifa-Acre region of Israel, Baha’i administrative properties-offices and housing in some locations, Radio stations in a handful of places)​

​

-Administrative services (Most Baha’is volunteer to serve and provide such services, but professionals are paid for full-time employment and persons moving to places for full-time service may be paid stipends and provided housing sufficient to cover living expenses.)​

​

-Charities (particularly in more wealthy communities)​

​

-Promotional expenses​

​

Only Baha’is in good standing can contribute to the Baha’i Funds. All contributions are voluntary, private, and cannot be requested.. The Baha’i Faith does not profit from its activities. Any fees and charges (such as for materials and books or use of facilities) typically only defray costs and expenses.​

​

Contributions are usually made at the local level in communities with local spiritual assemblies or incorporated groups. Some contributions are given by individuals directly at the national level. Individuals may direct portions of their contributions to specific funds for specific purposes.​

​

The Huququllah is a type of tithe directly controlled by the Universal House of Justice, which is the nine person elected body that heads the Faith. A person is to give 19% of any accumulated excess wealth (beyond what is ordinary or necessary or exempted for one’s living expenses). For many people, there is no excess wealth accumulated in a given year. The discretion and calculation is solely left to the individual and a private matter. It is intended to cause us to budget and consider our needs and discipline ourselves.​

​

What does the Bahá'í Faith do with the money they collect?​

Seeking answers take lots of questions from all sides. Further, truth will not always be an agreeable thing. Truth whether agreeable or not will never justify ignoring the truth.

Do you realize that what you just said also applies to you?
Is there a reason why you never respond to what I post about my religion but rather act as if I never said anything?

Smear campaigns are bad. First, it should be determined if it is smear.

Yes, we should determine if it is a smear campaign before hurling accusations. I did not do that so I had to apologize to @danieldemol later.

Speaking Truth should never be considered smear. Being pointed in the right direction is a gift.

Whose Truth?

Truth must always be questioned. Even long held truth must be questioned. If not questioned, one day one might Discover all they had all along were beliefs.

Do you ever question what you say is the Truth? If not questioned, one day you might Discover all you had all along were beliefs.

We are not meant to believe. WE are meant to know!!! Beliefs are just a patch to cover the unknown knowledge. Beliefs are the beginning of the journey not the end.

All you have are beliefs about God. You do not KNOW anything about God since you have no way to know.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Truthseeker]

What are you bringing up the Ḥuqúqu'lláh? How is that related to me being perfect?

Ḥuqúqu'lláh (Arabic: ﺣﻘﻮﻕ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ, "Right of God") is a voluntary wealth tax paid by adherents of the Baháʼí Faith to support the work of the religion.[1] Individuals following the practice calculate 19% of their discretionary income (after-tax income minus essential expenses) and send it to the head of the religion, which since 1963 has been the Universal House of Justice.[2][3]

Purpose

The Ḥuquq'ullah is not meant to be a donation, but is rather meant to be a claim by God for support of the interests of all people. It is partly used to equalize wealth across different parts of the world. The payment of the Ḥuquq'ullah is also meant to increase the spiritual link between the religion's central institutions and the individual. This offering is to be considered separate from giving to the various Baháʼí funds and takes precedence over them.[5] Furthermore, the Ḥuquq'ullah should not be solicited by anyone, and no payments of it can be accepted unless the individual was doing so "with the utmost joy".[8]

Huqúqu'lláh - Wikipedia

I essentially repeated that with the relevant quote from Baha'u'llah though not all of that information. What you underlined is in that quote essentially.

edit: I've deleted it now since it is redundant.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because you say something doesn't make it so especially when so many of your beliefs are not reality.

Because you say something doesn't make it so especially when so many of your beliefs are not reality.

Actions and choices speak to who one is. Our actions and choices show God and the world what one knows and what one needs to learn. Deeds should never be served up so others might believe anything. Our actions and choices, like God's actions and choices speak to who one is. Coercing and manipulating others by advertising good deeds are petty things that mankind holds so dear. They do not bring the best results.

Who said anything about advertising good deeds?

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'i Fund contributions are not used for spreading the religion.
Baha'i Fund contributions are not used for gaining followers, thereby making more money.
Individual Baha'is are not paid for teaching the Baha'i Faith, although sometimes Baha'i teaching activities are subsidized by Baha'i Fund..

Baha'i Fund contributions are used for various things. Bahá'í Funds - Bahai9

I had never heard about Bahai9 before now. It is similar to Bahaipedia. They are sister projects.