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What does it mean to be paid "what your worth"?

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
So this question usually comes up when discussing minimum wage. When people advocating increasing the wage some would argue that increasing the wage results in people being paid more than their worth.

So, my question to those who believe that minimum wages can result in paying people more than their worth, can you enlighten me, how is the value of a persons work determined?

I suspect the answer some might offer is that is that the market determines the value value of work.

IMO that's problematic, but I'm curious what my fellow posters think.

What does it mean to be paid "what your worth"?​


It means that someone doesn't speak English well.

The sad thing is that Capitalism was created for the worker, not for the employer. I can't argue for the value of a person's wage, but I can state that it is both more efficient, more economical, and more productive to give employees a wage that supports the whole of the business. It (capitalism) never was about the CEO's profits. It was about having (actually having) an economic system.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Your post sounds like you think the government keeps all the money.
No; perhaps you misunderstood me.
Granted, I admit... the government or operatives decide how to distribute the wealth in socialism. But the wealth should get distributed (if it isn't, sounds like a corrupt government and not socialism at all).
Who creates the wealth that the Government distributes?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Is this controlling stock in lieu of wages? Or do they get the same wages AND controlling stock?

What happens when employees vote to run the business in a way that causes the business to lose money and shut down? All the initial investors will lose everything, whereas the employee will only lose his job, and is free to join another company and help run it into the ground too! Does that sound fair to you?
Not in lieu of wages, and it doesn't pay dividends. You don't give employees complete control, because "Then you discuss laws determining how much of every company must be employee controlled as time progresses." Probably you set this around 30%, so you're talking about a major overhaul of how corporations function but not the death of corporations.

"You also have to regulate whether employees may sell this stock or not. I suggest not, although I think it would be fine if it could be inherited."

What happens when employees vote to run the business in a way that causes the business to lose money and shut down? All the initial investors will lose everything, whereas the employee will only lose his job, and is free to join another company and help run it into the ground
The employee is very limited in that they have to work to gain any control, so they can't really run the business. The investor has the advantage with the ability to both gain shares with dividends and controlling stock. Why would an employee that has spent years building control, simply be Ok with running it into the ground or skipping off to a new company where they have no accrued control?

Even so, all businesses have hiccups. Sometimes they file for bankruptcy. Its got diddly to do with employees and more to do with management and speculation and the market and changes in technology.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
To me it implies those who favor socialism don't understand economics.

And what does that tell you? What would someone have to know or understand about economics that would convince them not to be socialists? This is similar to statements made about creationists who may not understand evolutionary biology, but the difference is that biology is a hard science, not a soft science like economics or philosophy. This means that those who say similar things about socialists are implying that economics is a hard science, which confirms that point I made.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Not in lieu of wages, and it doesn't pay dividends. You don't give employees complete control, because "Then you discuss laws determining how much of every company must be employee controlled as time progresses." Probably you set this around 30%, so you're talking about a major overhaul of how corporations function but not the death of corporations.
How is 30% a major overhaul of how corporations function if they keep getting over ruled by the 70%?
"You also have to regulate whether employees may sell this stock or not. I suggest not, although I think it would be fine if it could be inherited."

So the only value the stock has is the ability to vote, and that vote will never be a controlling percentage?
Why would an employee that has spent years building control, simply be Ok with running it into the ground or skipping off to a new company where they have no accrued control?

I’m not saying the employee will intentionally run it into the ground, I’m saying employees are not managers and if given the ability to manage via voting, they will likely make bad decisions that they may think will be good ideas; resulting in bankruptcy. Then they gotta work, so they go elsewhere, and it all starts again with them trying to incorporate bad ideas that will never work and this new business gets in the same trouble as the last business.
Even so, all businesses have hiccups. Sometimes they file for bankruptcy. Its got diddly to do with employees and more to do with management and speculation and the market and changes in technology.

The reason bankruptcy has diddly to do with employees is because employees aren’t given the power you are suggesting they have. IMO, it’s hard enough to run a business as it is, we shouldn’t have a government that mandates policies that makes it even more difficult.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
And what does that tell you? What would someone have to know or understand about economics that would convince them not to be socialists?
They could learn from history, that Socialism takes away the incentive to work hard often resulting in a failed system. Remember; the Socialism was tried in America long before capitalism was tried; the Pilgrims tried it and nearly starved to death. They learned real quick; socialism does not work.

https://www.aier.org/article/the-pilgrims-tried-socialism-and-it-failed/
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Socialism seems to work better for the common man (despite the gripes from the common man about it that you sometimes see). Capitalism works better for elites, elitists, the lucky and fortunate, people of a certain mindset with "luck" on their side, etc, etc, etc.

The key game-changer was industrialism itself and how it impacted on the culture, demographics, and (ultimately) the politics where it originated and spread. Liberalism and concepts generally associated with the social welfare state came about mainly from elites who realized that they needed to keep the working classes reasonably content in order to make them less susceptible to socialist agitation. Leaders like Napoleon III and Bismarck supported social welfare policies for that reason, while using nationalism to unite and impel the masses. 1848 was a major wake-up call.

Such policies did work to a large extent, although not really because of the "system" itself. Competition was certainly a factor, but not really between companies or even families, but between nations who competed and fought with each other, such as between France, Britain, and Spain. Later on, Germany, Italy, and Russia would rise to prominence and join the game. America would also eventually find its way to the playing field, and Japan would come in as a latecomer. They were all capitalist and industrial states (although Russia was quite a bit behind for a variety of reasons), their populations grew, and they had industries and technologies to be able to equip and field some rather larger armies and navies (and air forces eventually).

That was capitalism, fueled by nationalism, which all came about from exploration and colonialism originally driven by a quest for "gold, glory, and God." And it did work, and for a time, it was good - for the elite, elitists, and the lucky and fortunate (and those who had no real conscience or scruples to dissuade them from committing the atrocities associated with that era). If you were a peasant and didn't relish the idea of working in a factory, you could always join a sailing crew - or perhaps go to America and stake a claim for free land (provided by government) which had just been recently cleared of Native "squatters" who actually believed the land was theirs. Still, a lot of people from the lower classes managed to elevate themselves this way, improving their standard of living and being able to eke out their own share of the American Dream.

It did work, and there are tangible results to prove that it worked, at least in terms of the expansion and development of America. We became very powerful relatively quickly - industrially, economically, and militarily. Likewise, it was working quite well in other places, such as in the British and French empires, and their good fortune was also spreading to their satellite states in Europe. The British were making a fortune from India and started making inroads into China - and other colonial powers were getting in on the action.

The competition between nations was not really planned, and many leaders felt compelled to do what they did not because they wanted to, but because they felt they had to. "If we don't do it, someone else will." Such as the annexation of Hawaii. We grabbed it before someone else could take it. Same with the Panama Canal. The European scramble for Africa is another example of the same process at work.

I would never deny or dismiss all that it took to bring the West out of the backward Medieval Era into the Industrial and Modern eras, and perhaps capitalism does work on that basis. It worked to build up the major empires of the world - although this global competition came with some downsides and serious issues that we're still dealing with today and will likely face for centuries to come (if humanity survives that long).

If you go back to say, 1910, and look at the world as it was back then, you might think it was some golden age of capitalism and the West. It must have been like ruling the world - and it seemed like it would go on that way in perpetuity. What could possibly go wrong, since they held the deed to most of the world? Those pesky socialists were nothing to worry about - just some wimpy intellectuals who are just full of talk (just like today). They might have had to throw a few table scraps to the industrial workers for PR purposes, but that was nothing compared to how much profit they were earning.

But, from the standpoint of Britain and France, their main fear at that point was Germany. Russia was also afraid of Germany, as they were largely still backward and unable to compete with German industries. Germany was quite powerful, and the Kaiser was kind of nutty. Nationalism was also at its peak, and one thing led to another, and the First World War was on.

My point in all of this is to say that, yes, capitalism does work, but there's a trade-off. There are certain costs and liabilities which come with it. This is why it gets messy and why there can be political upheavals and even world wars.

In other words, it's not really due to a "system" as much as it's rooted in the general way politics and commerce have generally operated. Nations which became wealthy and powerful due to industrialism and capitalism also operated from a certain practical and (when necessary) Machiavellian point of view.

However, having faced and dealt with the devastating wars, and the aftermath of colonialism and slavery, the various governments and peoples of the world said no more. We can't go on this way or else we'll wipe each other out. The socialists, at least those who reached the level of national power, for whatever reason, tended to become more quasi-nationalistic in their orientation and methods, which were atrocious and indefensible. They seemed to get more fixated on defending their revolution and ideology on a national level and trying to compete with the Western industrialists who had a 100-year head start on them. As a result, socialism suffered some setbacks.

At this point, I think America is at a bit of a crossroads - as we have been for quite some time. I think this may apply to much of the world, especially as concerns about climate change grow more and more urgent. The Democrats and the Republicans squabble with each other like cats and dogs.

I just don't know how much longer America can last under these conditions. Some people are worried about the possibility of America turning fascist, while others are worried about the possibility of America turning socialist. In other countries, nationalism is on the rise. It seems Russia has gone full tilt in that direction, but other nations are also showing signs of it. China isn't really communist or socialist anymore, but they are showing definite trends towards nationalism. And in America, we have Trump and other America Firsters riling things up.

What seems evident at this point is that, for whatever reason, liberal capitalists appear somewhat hobbled in trying to bottle up and rein in some of the more brazen right-wing conservative capitalists. The liberals just can't seem to cut the mustard; they're not getting the job done. It's not because their heart isn't in the right place, but I think that they've grown soft and complacent and they don't really want to rock the boat too much. Fact is, many people are multiply-connected and dependent upon the system, while hoping to work within the system to bring about reform. But under current conditions, the system itself is weakening.

To me, the argument is not really about what system is better. It's more a matter of politics and what is practical under present conditions. I think it's a matter of weighing up the costs and benefits of various policies and proposals, on a practical basis, rather than an ideological one.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
They could learn from history, that Socialism takes away the incentive to work hard often resulting in a failed system. Remember; the Socialism was tried in America long before capitalism was tried; the Pilgrims tried it and nearly starved to death. They learned real quick; socialism does not work.

https://www.aier.org/article/the-pilgrims-tried-socialism-and-it-failed/

The study of economics and the study of history are different things. If one wanted to say "they don't understand history," that would be a different matter entirely.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
The key game-changer was industrialism itself and how it impacted on the culture, demographics, and (ultimately) the politics where it originated and spread. Liberalism and concepts generally associated with the social welfare state came about mainly from elites who realized that they needed to keep the working classes reasonably content in order to make them less susceptible to socialist agitation. Leaders like Napoleon III and Bismarck supported social welfare policies for that reason, while using nationalism to unite and impel the masses. 1848 was a major wake-up call.

Such policies did work to a large extent, although not really because of the "system" itself. Competition was certainly a factor, but not really between companies or even families, but between nations who competed and fought with each other, such as between France, Britain, and Spain. Later on, Germany, Italy, and Russia would rise to prominence and join the game. America would also eventually find its way to the playing field, and Japan would come in as a latecomer. They were all capitalist and industrial states (although Russia was quite a bit behind for a variety of reasons), their populations grew, and they had industries and technologies to be able to equip and field some rather larger armies and navies (and air forces eventually).

That was capitalism, fueled by nationalism, which all came about from exploration and colonialism originally driven by a quest for "gold, glory, and God." And it did work, and for a time, it was good - for the elite, elitists, and the lucky and fortunate (and those who had no real conscience or scruples to dissuade them from committing the atrocities associated with that era). If you were a peasant and didn't relish the idea of working in a factory, you could always join a sailing crew - or perhaps go to America and stake a claim for free land (provided by government) which had just been recently cleared of Native "squatters" who actually believed the land was theirs. Still, a lot of people from the lower classes managed to elevate themselves this way, improving their standard of living and being able to eke out their own share of the American Dream.

It did work, and there are tangible results to prove that it worked, at least in terms of the expansion and development of America. We became very powerful relatively quickly - industrially, economically, and militarily. Likewise, it was working quite well in other places, such as in the British and French empires, and their good fortune was also spreading to their satellite states in Europe. The British were making a fortune from India and started making inroads into China - and other colonial powers were getting in on the action.

The competition between nations was not really planned, and many leaders felt compelled to do what they did not because they wanted to, but because they felt they had to. "If we don't do it, someone else will." Such as the annexation of Hawaii. We grabbed it before someone else could take it. Same with the Panama Canal. The European scramble for Africa is another example of the same process at work.

I would never deny or dismiss all that it took to bring the West out of the backward Medieval Era into the Industrial and Modern eras, and perhaps capitalism does work on that basis. It worked to build up the major empires of the world - although this global competition came with some downsides and serious issues that we're still dealing with today and will likely face for centuries to come (if humanity survives that long).

If you go back to say, 1910, and look at the world as it was back then, you might think it was some golden age of capitalism and the West. It must have been like ruling the world - and it seemed like it would go on that way in perpetuity. What could possibly go wrong, since they held the deed to most of the world? Those pesky socialists were nothing to worry about - just some wimpy intellectuals who are just full of talk (just like today). They might have had to throw a few table scraps to the industrial workers for PR purposes, but that was nothing compared to how much profit they were earning.

But, from the standpoint of Britain and France, their main fear at that point was Germany. Russia was also afraid of Germany, as they were largely still backward and unable to compete with German industries. Germany was quite powerful, and the Kaiser was kind of nutty. Nationalism was also at its peak, and one thing led to another, and the First World War was on.

My point in all of this is to say that, yes, capitalism does work, but there's a trade-off. There are certain costs and liabilities which come with it. This is why it gets messy and why there can be political upheavals and even world wars.

In other words, it's not really due to a "system" as much as it's rooted in the general way politics and commerce have generally operated. Nations which became wealthy and powerful due to industrialism and capitalism also operated from a certain practical and (when necessary) Machiavellian point of view.

However, having faced and dealt with the devastating wars, and the aftermath of colonialism and slavery, the various governments and peoples of the world said no more. We can't go on this way or else we'll wipe each other out. The socialists, at least those who reached the level of national power, for whatever reason, tended to become more quasi-nationalistic in their orientation and methods, which were atrocious and indefensible. They seemed to get more fixated on defending their revolution and ideology on a national level and trying to compete with the Western industrialists who had a 100-year head start on them. As a result, socialism suffered some setbacks.

At this point, I think America is at a bit of a crossroads - as we have been for quite some time. I think this may apply to much of the world, especially as concerns about climate change grow more and more urgent. The Democrats and the Republicans squabble with each other like cats and dogs.

I just don't know how much longer America can last under these conditions. Some people are worried about the possibility of America turning fascist, while others are worried about the possibility of America turning socialist. In other countries, nationalism is on the rise. It seems Russia has gone full tilt in that direction, but other nations are also showing signs of it. China isn't really communist or socialist anymore, but they are showing definite trends towards nationalism. And in America, we have Trump and other America Firsters riling things up.

What seems evident at this point is that, for whatever reason, liberal capitalists appear somewhat hobbled in trying to bottle up and rein in some of the more brazen right-wing conservative capitalists. The liberals just can't seem to cut the mustard; they're not getting the job done. It's not because their heart isn't in the right place, but I think that they've grown soft and complacent and they don't really want to rock the boat too much. Fact is, many people are multiply-connected and dependent upon the system, while hoping to work within the system to bring about reform. But under current conditions, the system itself is weakening.

To me, the argument is not really about what system is better. It's more a matter of politics and what is practical under present conditions. I think it's a matter of weighing up the costs and benefits of various policies and proposals, on a practical basis, rather than an ideological one.

There's definitely a distinction to be made - what I would want politically, and what I consider practical.

When it comes to what I would want, I would prefer to exist in a socialist system rather than a capitalist one.

In terms of what is most practical, it's a bit more complicated. On more of an economic level, I see capitalism with Universal Basic Income as possibly working better.

However, on the other hand, Democrats that identify as socialist are often pretty far left, like Bernie Sanders, etc. So having those left-wingers and inviting them in, could also be a solution to rising nationalism, and could even slightly dodge things becoming full fascist.

It seems that capitalism is good in small to moderate quantities, but when taken to certain high levels, can create a sickness in the process despite helping the national economy.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
IMG_20230804_083817.jpg
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
The study of economics and the study of history are different things. If one wanted to say "they don't understand history," that would be a different matter entirely.
I'm not talking about someone ho doesn't understand history, I'm talking about someone who understands history and has learned from it.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
Who creates the wealth that the Government distributes?

Or, another question, would there be as much wealth created if there wasn't a government creating a system of distribution?

If your answer is yes, I'd argue you don't understand economics.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Or, another question, would there be as much wealth created if there wasn't a government creating a system of distribution?

I don't quite understand the wording of the question here, but I actually do believe that less wealth would be generated overall in socialism than in capitalism, but that the positive benefits of socialism and negative "benefits" of capitalism "may" come into play as a factor in any capitalism vs. socialism debate.
 

EconGuy

Active Member

Excellent example, but let's say there were three unemployed welders all capable of making the better of the two welds, but only 1 job remaining. Despite having several other welders in the business all paid $30hr for the better welds, if the last welder is paid $15 because there's only one job and three people. Is the last welder being paid what he's worth?

If not is the employer exploiting the welder?
 

EconGuy

Active Member
I don't quite understand the wording of the question here, but I actually do believe that less wealth would be generated overall in socialism than in capitalism, but that the positive benefits of socialism and negative "benefits" of capitalism "may" come into play as a factor in any capitalism vs. socialism debate.

The government creates systems that facilitate to creation of goods. Patents, regulating monopolies, Limited Liability, the court system and the system of money.

Without all of those things, things that only exist in the context of government, less things would be made.

As far as the question, would less things be made in a system of Socialism. If we're talking full on Government owns the means of production Socialism, perhaps, but if we're talking more of a blend of capitalistic and Democratic socialism I see no reason why all other things being equal, one would be better than the other.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Or, another question, would there be as much wealth created if there wasn't a government creating a system of distribution?

If your answer is yes, I'd argue you don't understand economics.
How does the government creating the system of wealth distribution create wealth?
 
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