What does it mean to "deny" Jesus, according to the NT?

[Shermana]

One quick thing that I have had to discuss on practically every Trinitarian debate:

The commandment does not say to only worship God, it says to worship God AND SERVE HIM ONLY.

The word "And" is often a tricky issue, especially in cases like Sharp's rule.

Notice that David receives "Worship" along with God in Chronicles. The word "Worship" merely means "To bow down to/to kneel to".

To worship the Evil one would not be serving God, since he's not in the Divine chain of command. To worship other gods as opposed to Angels (which seem to be worshiped as well) and Divinely appointed kings would not be serving God either. Thus, one who worships Jesus is still serving God, since Jesus represents the True Will of the Father and the Divinely appointed "king of kings" on Earth.

Also note that the Father is called "king of king of kings" in Sirach.

 

[sincerly]

One quick thing that I have had to discuss on practically every Trinitarian debate:

The commandment does not say to only worship God, it says to worship God AND SERVE HIM ONLY.

The word "And" is often a tricky issue, especially in cases like Sharp's rule.

Here is the KJV translation: Ex.20:3-5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God,..."
All those gods that commandment is referring to were made by human beings. They have no life nor knowledge.

Worship=shachak=to bow down; prostrate one's self in honor, respect

Therefore, when one replaces the honor respect, obedience due to the Creator GOD, with creations from one's own mind/imagination, one has "bowed down"/"worshiped" other than the true GOD.

 

[Shermana]

Here is the KJV translation: Ex.20:3-5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God,..."
All those gods that commandment is referring to were made by human beings. They have no life nor knowledge.

Worship=shachak=to bow down; prostrate one's self in honor, respect

Therefore, when one replaces the honor respect, obedience due to the Creator GOD, with creations from one's own mind/imagination, one has "bowed down"/"worshiped" other than the true GOD.

Did you intentionally snip out the bottom half of my post where I address that or were you in such a rush to post that you forgot to include that in your copy and paste? You can just hit "Quote" and get the full quote if that's the case.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why David was worshiped in Chronicles. Did the word "Worship" mean something else in that case like many try to claim?

 

[sincerly]

To worship the Evil one would not be serving God, since he's not in the Divine chain of command. To worship other gods as opposed to Angels (which seem to be worshiped as well) and Divinely appointed kings would not be serving God either. Thus, one who worships Jesus is still serving God, since Jesus represents the True Will of the Father and the Divinely appointed "king of kings" on Earth.

Hi Shermana, unless you are claiming that David was accepting and entitled to the same worship due the Creator GOD, I understood we were on the same page.

 

[Shermana]

Hi Shermana, unless you are claiming that David was accepting and entitled to the same worship due the Creator GOD, I understood we were on the same page.

What would be a different form of worship that David received? Did they only bow halfway? I don't understand how there are different kinds of "worship". A bow is a bow. A kneeling is a kneeling. Obviously they didn't think David was God. That's not the issue. Otherwise, please explain how one would "Worship" differently between a king and God? I think you're confusing the concept of respect and reverence, which is quite common especially with Catholic definitions of how they 'reverence" their saints through statues. Otherwise, please explain specifically what kind of "worship" that only God would receive other than the acknowledgment that God is God and David is king. A king would not bow to another king unless he was accepting their dominion. A prophet would not bow to another prophet if they are of the same "heavenly rank". By bowing to false gods who aren't in the Divine chain of command, one is not serving God. By bowing to an "angel" (and angels are called gods) who is sent by God, like a king, it is serving God. Like saluting a petty officer.

 

[punkdbass]

What would be a different form of worship that David received? Did they only bow halfway? I don't understand how there are different kinds of "worship"

There is a reason that all of the rituals and commandments pertaining to worship are directed towards specifically God and not anyone else.. because God is worshiped in a unique and deserving manner. Are you seriously trying to say that the worship we give God is equivalent to the worship we give David?

Otherwise, please explain specifically what kind of "worship" that only God would receive

the commandments! The commandments are done for God, not for someone else such as David.

By bowing to false gods who aren't in the Divine chain of command, one is not serving God. By bowing to an "angel" (and angels are called gods) who is sent by God, like a king, it is serving God. Like saluting a petty officer.

I agree that it isnt idolatrous to show respect to the President of my country. But to say that the "worship" you give the President or King is equivalent to the worship you give God is simply idolatry.

 

[Shermana]

There is a reason that all of the rituals and commandments pertaining to worship are directed towards specifically God and not anyone else.. because God is worshiped in a unique and deserving manner. Are you seriously trying to say that the worship we give God is equivalent to the worship we give David?

Please explain what exactly you think was going on when David received worship. I think I addressed your question in the above post. What exactly are these "Commandments" about "Worship"? It's quite common for people to not understand what "Worship" means due to mangling of the concept by mainstream churches. Any sort of "Bow" in submission to authority is "Worship" by its Biblical definition. It's important to not confuse the Biblical definition with the modern-mangled philosophical fluff.

the commandments! The commandments are done for God, not for someone else such as David.

I don't understand the relevance of this response to my point. The commandment is to worship God AND SERVE HIM ONLY. The word "and" doesn't necessarily mean "both this and that". In fact, I think I asked in the above post to Sincerly what kind of "Worship" is so unique to God. Do you only half-bow to the King? What do you think "Worship" means exactly? Does your definition involve a modern or Biblica-era Hebrew understanding of the word? I made it clear that worshiping gods that aren't angels in the DIvine chain of command would not be serving Him. What "commandments" are involved with the "Bowing" to God and not the broader modern-meaning of "worship"? Do you think the Sacrificial laws are laws about "Worship" or are they laws about "Service"?

I agree that it isnt idolatrous to show respect to the President of my country.

Do you think its idolatrous if a person kneels to the Queen of England? If not, then I rest my case.

But to say that the "worship" you give the President or King is equivalent to the worship you give God is simply idolatry.

Again, what do you think was going on when David was "Worshiped", and do you understand what "worship" means? Keep in mind that my very point is against the Trinitarian idea that to "Worship Jesus" means that Jesus was God. In no way whatsoever am I saying that worshiping a King means you think He's equal to God. However, a bow is a bow. A kneeling is a kneeling. How you regard the figure you're bowing or kneeling to has nothing to do with the concept, except when in the context of "Worship Him in spirit and truth" and that's another story.

 

[punkdbass]

Ahh I better understand your argument now. But do you really think the biblical definition of "worship" simply, and only meant to bow down and show respect? Was that all that biblical worship entailed?

I do agree with you that when the Bible says the people worshiped David, clearly that meant they didnt believe him to be God, rather they were only bowing down and showing respect to him.

And so you think observing the commandments is "service" to God and not "worship" ? I guess you could make that argument. I don't really know what the Hebrew meaning behind the word "worship" exactly means, so I'm not going to comment any further on it but I think its fair to say that the word can mean different things depending on the context in which it was used, as you seem to agree with the following statement:

How you regard the figure you're bowing or kneeling to has nothing to do with the concept, except when in the context of "Worship Him in spirit and truth" and that's another story.

Thus I think my point stands that the word "worship" used in the context of worshiping God could(and is IMO) different than when used in the context of "worshiping" David for example

 

[Shermana]

Ahh I better understand your argument now. But do you really think the biblical definition of "worship" simply, and only meant to bow down and show respect? Was that all that biblical worship entailed?

Yes, the only thing "Worship" entailed was a display of obedience and submission to authority. You can "Worship" the king.

I do agree with you that when the Bible says the people worshiped David, clearly that meant they didnt believe him to be God, rather they were only bowing down and showing respect to him

. From there, praying and showing due reverence and respect and showing honor and love is part of the process. It's like how "pulling the trigger" applies to both a .22 and a Tank cannon and requires more actions and attention, it's still the same action, except one is on a much larger scale. Maybe that's not the best example.

And so you think observing the commandments is "service" to God and not "worship" ? I guess you could make that argument. I don't really know what the Hebrew meaning behind the word "worship" exactly means, so I'm not going to comment any further on it but I think its fair to say that the word can mean different things depending on the context in which it was used, as you seem to agree with the following statement:

Yes, the "Commandments" are the "Serve Him Only" part. Obedience is not "Worship", it's "Service". At least as far as Semantics are concerned with what I'm arguing. I agree that the word can mean a "Different thing" in the sense that bowing to a king is nothing like bowing to God, except the bowing part.

So no problem, it's sort of an obscure issue that gets abused often by Trinitarians which is my main problem with it, I can make a whole on this issue and we can go over the specific uses of the word to help clarify, I think it would be very helpful to the forum in general to know what the Biblical concept of "Worship" means.

Thus I think my point stands that the word "worship" used in the context of worshiping God could(and is IMO) different than when used in the context of "worshiping" David for example

Even if I agreed though, this would entail that "worship" of Jesus was no different than worship of "David" in that respect. And that's what I'm saying either way. The Trinitarian wants to say that because Jesus is "worshiped" that means He was considered God. Not so! If this was the case, then David would be considered God. But for some reason they ain't planning on making David part of the Trinity. So goodbye common Trinitarian "Worship" argument.

 

[silenceinmotion]

What does it mean to "deny" Jesus, according to the NT?

It depends on what you mean by the question.
Jews deny Jesus because they do not believe him to be the Messiah. Muslims deny him (from the Christian perspective) because they do not believe he is the Son of God but rather a prophet.

But then you have the overdrawn notion that denying Jesus consists of *not believing what someone else believes of Jesus*. You will get this a lot from fanatics and the like. One of the biggest you will see will be among Trinitarian extremists. I am a Trinitarian (newly found, actually, I struggled a bit with the concept), but it is not a salvation issue to believe otherwise as long as you can concede to the Christian truth that Jesus is more then mere man. It is rather an issue among churches.

 

[CMike]

David was never worshipped.


G-d said to only worship him.

Worshipping Jesus is no different than worshipping a golden calf according to the Torah.

One quick thing that I have had to discuss on practically every Trinitarian debate: O

The commandment does not say to only worship God, it says to worship God AND SERVE HIM ONLY.

The word "And" is often a tricky issue, especially in cases like Sharp's rule.

Notice that David receives "Worship" along with God in Chronicles. The word "Worship" merely means "To bow down to/to kneel to".

To worship the Evil one would not be serving God, since he's not in the Divine chain of command. To worship other gods as opposed to Angels (which seem to be worshiped as well) and Divinely appointed kings would not be serving God either. Thus, one who worships Jesus is still serving God, since Jesus represents the True Will of the Father and the Divinely appointed "king of kings" on Earth.

Also note that the Father is called "king of king of kings" in Sirach.

 

[Shermana]

1 Chronicles 29:20

English Revised Version
And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.

וַיֹּ֤אמֶר דָּוִיד֙ לְכָל־ הַקָּהָ֔ל בָּֽרְכוּ־ נָ֖א אֶת־ יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֑ם וַיְבָרֲכ֣וּ כָֽל־ הַקָּהָ֗ל לַיהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיהֶ֔ם וַיִּקְּד֧וּ וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲו֛וּ לַיהוָ֖ה וְלַמֶּֽלֶךְ׃

The word there is the same word for "Worship" as anywhere else. The meaning is the same. To bow down to.

And again, it says to worship God AND serve him only. The issue is the use of the word "And" there. To worship a golden calf is not to serve God, to worship an Angel sent by God is to serve Him since its in the Divine chain of command.

 

[CMike]

Not quite.

The messiah wouldn't be worshipped.


Only G-d may be worshipped.


Your messiah isn't the Jewish one.

It depends on what you mean by the question.
Jews deny Jesus because they do not believe him to be the Messiah. Muslims deny him (from the Christian perspective) because they do not believe he is the Son of God but rather a prophet.

But then you have the overdrawn notion that denying Jesus consists of *not believing what someone else believes of Jesus*. You will get this a lot from fanatics and the like. One of the biggest you will see will be among Trinitarian extremists. I am a Trinitarian (newly found, actually, I struggled a bit with the concept), but it is not a salvation issue to believe otherwise as long as you can concede to the Christian truth that Jesus is more then mere man. It is rather an issue among churches.

 

[sincerly]

What would be a different form of worship that David received? Did they only bow halfway? I don't understand how there are different kinds of "worship". A bow is a bow. A kneeling is a kneeling. Obviously they didn't think David was God. That's not the issue. Otherwise, please explain how one would "Worship" differently between a king and God?

You are playing a game of semantics. You are, also, misusing the Commandments.
Are you referring to 1Chron.29:20? And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."
The first Commandment is "I am the LORD thy GOD". You acknowledged that the people "didn't think that David was GOD". Therefore, the Congregation "Blessed GOD as GOD and Bowed their heads."
With that "tricky---and" they ,also, Blessed David in acknowledging his reign of forty years---and the turning over the kingdom to Solomon.

I think you're confusing the concept of respect and reverence, which is quite common especially with Catholic definitions of how they 'reverence" their saints through statues. Otherwise, please explain specifically what kind of "worship" that only God would receive other than the acknowledgment that God is God and David is king. A king would not bow to another king unless he was accepting their dominion. A prophet would not bow to another prophet if they are of the same "heavenly rank". By bowing to false gods who aren't in the Divine chain of command, one is not serving God. By bowing to an "angel" (and angels are called gods) who is sent by God, like a king, it is serving God. Like saluting a petty officer.

I'm not aware of any "angel" which accepted being "bowed to" by humans.
Rev.22:8-9, "And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

 

[Shermana]

You are playing a game of semantics.

Accusing me of playing a game of Semantics is not a substitute for an actual word analysis. What's your reasoning? Because my definition differs from yours? Feel free to show a single example in the Hebrew where the word means differently, with proof of context. That'd be great.

You are, also, misusing the Commandments.

Thanks for your own unbacked assertion and opinion, I'll add it to my collection, maybe I'll find some room in the back.

Are you referring to 1Chron.29:20? And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."
The first Commandment is "I am the LORD thy GOD". You acknowledged that the people "didn't think that David was GOD". Therefore, the Congregation "Blessed GOD as GOD and Bowed their heads."
With that "tricky---and" they ,also, Blessed David in acknowledging his reign of forty years---and the turning over the kingdom to Solomon.

]

Ummm, is there something in there that's supposed to support your argument against what I said? Oh wait, I forgot, you think you have the Spirit guiding everything you say so you probably don't think you have to actually back your claims. And the word "And" there is most definitely referring to the word "Worshiped", if you feel differently, feel free to present a single commentary that suggests what you're saying. Many translations deliberately alter the word to "did reverence" or "Did obesiance" to avoid this little pitfall to their ideology. Perhaps you'd like to go over it line by line.

I'm not aware of any "angel" which accepted being "bowed to" by humans.

It's one thing to disagree, but you've proven you're unwilling to even read Revelation 22 in its full context. It clearly says that its the words of Jesus's angel, bearing a message from His father. If you deny this, then you're just refusing to read the text.

Rev.22:8-9, "And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

[/quote]

Did you disregard what I said about how a prophet wouldn't worship another prophet because they're of equal rank? Why would he even bow to him in the first place if he knew it was wrong to begin with? Are you saying that John was unaware that it was wrong to worship an Angel? He just wasn't aware that this was a Spirit of a prophet and thus of equal authority. "Thy brethren, the prophets". What if John wasn't a prophet? Would he say the same?

 

[Shermana]

Not quite.

The messiah wouldn't be worshipped.

Why not? David was worshiped but Jesus can't be?

Only G-d may be worshipped.

Repeating yourself doesn't disprove what I said about the word "worship". It says only to Serve God.

Your messiah isn't the Jewish one.

I've been meaning to make a whole thread about whether Jesus fits the requirements of the Jewish messiah and whether the Rabbis are interpreting it incorrectly. But it has nothing to do with whether he accepted people bowing down to him.

What do you think "Worship" means? Even Saul was worshiped.

 

[Bob Dixon]

A guy goes into a textual analysis using the original language of the text and then his opponent completely ignores that fact.

Awesome.

 

[sincerly]

Accusing me of playing a game of Semantics is not a substitute for an actual word analysis. What's your reasoning? Because my definition differs from yours? Feel free to show a single example in the Hebrew where the word means differently, with proof of context. That'd be great.
Thanks for your own unbacked assertion and opinion, I'll add it to my collection, maybe I'll find some room in the back.

Ummm, is there something in there that's supposed to support your argument against what I said? Oh wait, I forgot, you think you have the Spirit guiding everything you say so you probably don't think you have to actually back your claims. And the word "And" there is most definitely referring to the word "Worshiped", if you feel differently, feel free to present a single commentary that suggests what you're saying. Many translations deliberately alter the word to "did reverence" or "Did obesiance" to avoid this little pitfall to their ideology. Perhaps you'd like to go over it line by line.

It's one thing to disagree, but you've proven you're unwilling to even read Revelation 22 in its full context. It clearly says that its the words of Jesus's angel, bearing a message from His father. If you deny this, then you're just refusing to read the text.

Did you disregard what I said about how a prophet wouldn't worship another prophet because they're of equal rank? Why would he even bow to him in the first place if he knew it was wrong to begin with? Are you saying that John was unaware that it was wrong to worship an Angel? He just wasn't aware that this was a Spirit of a prophet and thus of equal authority. "Thy brethren, the prophets". What if John wasn't a prophet? Would he say the same?

I'll stick by my scriptural answers to your "thinking of what I think."

 

[sincerly]

Why not? David was worshiped but Jesus can't be?

Repeating yourself doesn't disprove what I said about the word "worship". It says only to Serve God.
I've been meaning to make a whole thread about whether Jesus fits the requirements of the Jewish messiah and whether the Rabbis are interpreting it incorrectly. But it has nothing to do with whether he accepted people bowing down to him.

What do you think "Worship" means? Even Saul was worshiped.

And we have gone over the word "worshiped" and how it was used. Saul disobeyed GOD'S instruction, but never was it written that Saul thought of himself as being GOD.

 

[CMike]

1 Chronicles 29:20



וַיֹּ֤אמֶר דָּוִיד֙ לְכָל־ הַקָּהָ֔ל בָּֽרְכוּ־ נָ֖א אֶת־ יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֑ם וַיְבָרֲכ֣וּ כָֽל־ הַקָּהָ֗ל לַיהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיהֶ֔ם וַיִּקְּד֧וּ וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲו֛וּ לַיהוָ֖ה וְלַמֶּֽלֶךְ׃

The word there is the same word for "Worship" as anywhere else. The meaning is the same. To bow down to.

And again, it says to worship God AND serve him only. The issue is the use of the word "And" there. To worship a golden calf is not to serve God, to worship an Angel sent by God is to serve Him since its in the Divine chain of command.

Actually I can tranlate it myself

And David said to the congregation bless G-d, your G-d, and the congregation blessed G-d, and they knelt and bowed to G-D and the king.

Kneeling and bowing was sign of respect for the king. In no way was the king worshipped.

Divrei Hayamim I - Chapter 29 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

20. And David said to the entire assembly, "Now bless the Lord your God," and the assembly blessed the Lord, the God of their fathers, and they kneeled and prostrated themselves before the Lord and before the king.

I would like to add the next passage. My comments in red.

21. And they slaughtered sacrifices to the Lord and they offered burnt-offerings to the Lord on the morrow of that day, a thousand bulls, a thousand rams, a thousand lambs, and their libations, and numerous sacrifices for all Israel. No sacrifices were ever made to David. Only for G-D.


Once again, G-D forbade anyone to be worshipped, other than him.


Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)


O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

So which one is it? if you believe in jewish scripture, what about the scripture, where G-D makes it crystal clear that he is to be worshipped and no one else.