What does it mean to "deny" Jesus, according to the NT?

[CMike]

Why not? David was worshiped but Jesus can't be?

David was never worshipped by jews. Only G-D is to be worshipped.

In fact in the entire ritual reading of the Passover story on Passover, where Moses had a pretty big role, Moses i mentioned only one and only as a "humble servant.

Judaism is solely about G-D

Repeating yourself doesn't disprove what I said about the word "worship". It says only to Serve God. ?

The "worship" is your own creation. The text doesn't say that. What says only to "serve G-D"?

I've been meaning to make a whole thread about whether Jesus fits the requirements of the Jewish messiah and whether the Rabbis are interpreting it incorrectly. But it has nothing to do with whether he accepted people bowing down to him.

What do you think "Worship" means? Even Saul was worshiped.

No he wasn't. They were treated with the respect accorded to kings.
Worshipped means prayed to. For jews only G-D is prayed too. To do otherwise is a very grave sin in judaism.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
(Because of the formatting it's easier to read if you click on the link)


2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,ב. כִּי יָקוּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ נָבִיא אוֹ חֹלֵם חֲלוֹם וְנָתַן אֵלֶיךָ אוֹת אוֹ מוֹפֵת:3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"ג. וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת אֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר נֵלְכָה אַחֲרֵי אֱ־לֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹא יְדַעְתָּם וְנָעָבְדֵם:4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.ד. לֹא תִשְׁמַע אֶל דִּבְרֵי הַנָּבִיא הַהוּא אוֹ אֶל חוֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם הַהוּא כִּי מְנַסֶּה יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם אֶתְכֶם לָדַעַת הֲיִשְׁכֶם אֹהֲבִים אֶת יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם בְּכָל לְבַבְכֶם וּבְכָל נַפְשְׁכֶם:5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.ה. אַחֲרֵי יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם תֵּלֵכוּ וְאֹתוֹ תִירָאוּ וְאֶת מִצְוֹתָיו תִּשְׁמֹרוּ וּבְקֹלוֹ תִשְׁמָעוּ וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹדוּ וּבוֹ תִדְבָּקוּן:6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.ו. וְהַנָּבִיא הַהוּא אוֹ חֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם הַהוּא יוּמָת כִּי דִבֶּר סָרָה עַל יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם הַמּוֹצִיא אֶתְכֶם מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם וְהַפֹּדְךָ מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים לְהַדִּיחֲךָ מִן הַדֶּרֶךְ אֲשֶׁר צִוְּךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לָלֶכֶת בָּהּ וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע מִקִּרְבֶּךָ:7. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known."ז. כִּי יְסִיתְךָ אָחִיךָ בֶן אִמֶּךָ אוֹ בִנְךָ אוֹ בִתְּךָ אוֹ אֵשֶׁת חֵיקֶךָ אוֹ רֵעֲךָ אֲשֶׁר כְּנַפְשְׁךָ בַּסֵּתֶר לֵאמֹר נֵלְכָה וְנַעַבְדָה אֱ־לֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹא יָדַעְתָּ אַתָּה וַאֲבֹתֶיךָ:8. Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth;ח. מֵאֱלֹהֵי הָעַמִּים אֲשֶׁר סְבִיבֹתֵיכֶם הַקְּרֹבִים אֵלֶיךָ אוֹ הָרְחֹקִים מִמֶּךָּ מִקְצֵה הָאָרֶץ וְעַד קְצֵה הָאָרֶץ:9. You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him.ט. לֹא תֹאבֶה לוֹ וְלֹא תִשְׁמַע אֵלָיו וְלֹא תָחוֹס עֵינְךָ עָלָיו וְלֹא תַחְמֹל וְלֹא תְכַסֶּה עָלָיו:10. But you shall surely kill him, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.י. כִּי הָרֹג תַּהַרְגֶנּוּ יָדְךָ תִּהְיֶה בּוֹ בָרִאשׁוֹנָה לַהֲמִיתוֹ וְיַד כָּל הָעָם בָּאַחֲרֹנָה:11. And you shall stone him with stones so that he dies, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

 

[CMike]

You are playing a game of semantics. You are, also, misusing the Commandments.
Are you referring to 1Chron.29:20? And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."

Your translation is wrong.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
You are playing a game of semantics. You are, also, misusing the Commandments.
Are you referring to 1Chron.29:20? And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."

Your translation is wrong.

Actually I can tranlate it myself

And David said to the congregation bless G-d, your G-d, and the congregation blessed G-d, and they knelt and bowed to G-D and the king.

Masoretic text used in the KJV)
29:20
וַיֹּאמֶר דָּוִיד לְכָל־הַקָּהָל בָּֽרְכוּ־נָא אֶת־יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם וַיְבָרֲכוּ כָֽל־הַקָּהָל לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹֽתֵיהֶם וַיִּקְּדוּ וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲווּ לַיהוָה וְלַמֶּֽלֶךְ׃

Shermana posted:
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר דָּוִיד֙ לְכָל־ הַקָּהָ֔ל בָּֽרְכוּ־ נָ֖א אֶת־ יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֑ם וַיְבָרֲכ֣וּ כָֽל־ הַקָּהָ֗ל לַיהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיהֶ֔ם וַיִּקְּד֧וּ וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲו֛וּ לַיהוָ֖ה וְלַמֶּֽלֶךְ׃

Didn't GOD tell Moses Ex. 6:3, "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

The messages in the Jewish texts above have the same message. How is the translation wrong?

 

[Shermana]

Cmike, if you're able to read the Hebrew, Please explain why the same word means "Bows" here but "Worships" elsewhere. Does it have to do with your particular Theological presumption? The examples you showed in no way whatsoever prove that it means "pray to" exclusively, if anything they demonstrate my own definition. And before you use your Chabad translation, be aware that numerous translations deliberately change it to its more direct meaning in order to avoid the implications that using the same word normally used, "Worship" would imply here, due to their more post-2nd-temple theological presumptions.

Worshipped means prayed to.

Please by all means, show that the word means "pray to" instead of "Bow down to" exclusively. Funny how the same word you say means "pray" means "Bow down" in your own example. How odd. Do you think "worship" has multiple meanings based on different contexts or something?

Be careful about lying when it comes to Hebrew definitions to suit your point...you're aware there are different words for pray and bow, right? Hopefully so.

 

[Shermana]

I'll stick by my scriptural answers to your "thinking of what I think."

Your total dodge of my questions and points is noted.

Okay, so do you want to answer why John would even bow down to the angel to begin with or not? Are you saying that John was unaware of the supposed rule to not bow down to angels? I'll stick by MY scriptural answers, thank you.

 

[CMike]

Originally Posted by sincerly
You are playing a game of semantics. You are, also, misusing the Commandments.
Are you referring to 1Chron.29:20? And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."





Masoretic text used in the KJV)
29:20
וַיֹּאמֶר דָּוִיד לְכָל־הַקָּהָל בָּֽרְכוּ־נָא אֶת־יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם וַיְבָרֲכוּ כָֽל־הַקָּהָל לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹֽתֵיהֶם וַיִּקְּדוּ וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲווּ לַיהוָה וְלַמֶּֽלֶךְ׃

Shermana posted:
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר דָּוִיד֙ לְכָל־ הַקָּהָ֔ל בָּֽרְכוּ־ נָ֖א אֶת־ יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֑ם וַיְבָרֲכ֣וּ כָֽל־ הַקָּהָ֗ל לַיהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיהֶ֔ם וַיִּקְּד֧וּ וַיִּֽשְׁתַּחֲו֛וּ לַיהוָ֖ה וְלַמֶּֽלֶךְ׃

Didn't GOD tell Moses Ex. 6:3, "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

The messages in the Jewish texts above have the same message. How is the translation wrong?

I don't understand your question? What does Exodus have to do with this?

How is which translation wrong

 

[CMike]

Cmike, if you're able to read the Hebrew, Please explain why the same word means "Bows" here but "Worships" elsewhere..

.[/quote]

Like where ?

Does it have to do with your particular Theological presumption? The examples you showed in no way whatsoever prove that it means "pray to" exclusively, if anything they demonstrate my own definition. And before you use your Chabad translation, be aware that numerous translations deliberately change it to its more direct meaning in order to avoid the implications that using the same word normally used, "Worship" would imply here, due to their more post-2nd-temple theological presumptions.

Please by all means, show that the word means "pray to" instead of "Bow down to" exclusively. Funny how the same word you say means "pray" means "Bow down" in your own example. How odd. Do you think "worship" has multiple meanings based on different contexts or something?

Be careful about lying when it comes to Hebrew definitions to suit your point...you're aware there are different words for pray and bow, right? Hopefully so.

Frankly, I don't understand your questions.

Context does matter sometimes. This is in hebrew. Often there isn't an exact translations. Here it is pretty clear though.

Also, once again, the Torah was written by jews, for jews, and to be interpreted jews. That christian translations pervert a chunk of the text is not surprising and pretty common.

Jews take the Torah seriously. Each word is very important. Jews aren't going to intentionally change translations for any reason.

Also, once again, G-D said in numerous passages that only he is to be worshipped, trusted, be considered the saviour, etc.

Kings were given proper respect as accorded to a king, but no jewish king would expect to be worshipped.

Worshipped | Define Worshipped at Dictionary.com

noun
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

 

[Shermana]

Like where ?

Exactly. Nowhere.


1. You seem to think the word "Worship" here is its meaning in English? If so, look at its ANCIENT meaning, not its modern. As I've mentioned countless times, in ENGLISH, it originally meant something almost identical to what I'm saying. A judge was called "Your worship" because it meant "Someone who is WORTHY of being kneeled to". So kindly admit that using the English dictionary definition here is a waste of time.

2. If Jews don't "intentionally change" translations, then you've only seen one Jewish-based translation apparently. But regardless, the word always means "bow down to", and in this case its translated as such instead of "worship", why is that? Why does Worship mean something other than "bow down" to elsehwere?


3. God said that no idols are to be worshiped. This would involve "gods" and "powers" that are not associated with His chain of command and thus would not be serving Him. One cannot worship Ba'al and Ashtoreth and serve Him. One can worship an Angel, a direct being under His command. The problem here is your total insistence that its clear-cut meaning of "bow down to" somehow changes when being applied to God. Why? When asked for proof otherwise, you have none.

4. You said that to worship means to pray to. That's clearly bogus and a lie. There is a different word for pray. They are not at all the same concept. One might pray WHILE worshiping. That does not mean they are one and the same. One can worship a King and worship God differently in the sense that one acknowledges God as a higher being, but the bow is the same bow for both. The reverence for different rank and power is another concept. One may not pray to a King while bowing to him, but may pray to God while bowing to Him. They are still both "Worshiped". If you cannot prove that "worship" means something other than "bow down to" in EVERY instance its used (i.e. prove a single place where it indisputably means something else), then you have a problem.

5. Your own dictionary definition that use says "Object". Do you think God is an object? If not, kindly admit you should not be using modern English translations of this word.

6. 1 Chronicles 29:20 is not the Torah, and often times, Jews translate things very incorrectly. On a side note, the Masoretic text differs significantly in key places from the Septuagint, DSS, and other translations to begin with. And we believe the Masoretic is correct because it's by Rabbis just because? As if Jews have never quarreled over a translation? I am Jewish, you may not think I'm religiously Jewish, but I don't see why I'm now unable to translate something.

7. You say no King would expect to be "worshiped", so please show a SINGLE use of the word "Worship" where we can know for SURE that it does NOT mean "bow down" and nothing more than "bow down" or kindly admit that you may a bit mistaken on how to translate the word.

8. In the end, the word only ever means "to show physical display of obedience". Thus, when John "Worships" the Angel, was he not supposed to have known not to worship the Angel? The angel rebukes him because they are of the same RANK. Those who use this verse are calling John an idiot basically or saying that he would blaspheme and commit idolatry as if he didn't know the Law.

10. Again, the commandmnet is to Worship God AND serve Him only. The issue is the word "And". As for being prohibited from worshiping other "gods" and "idols", that's true, but it involves beings that aren't in the chain of command that thus wouldn't involve Serving Him, else Angels and men wouldn't be "worshiped". Else, you have to twist and stretch the definition of "Worship" to apply a different "Context" in one single place and change its definition as opposed to how its used in not only all the Tanakah for the rest of the time, but also in all the Apocryphal and Midrashic literature.

11.. Again I asked Cmike to show a single use of the word "Worship" to mean something other than "bow down to" or where it means "pray to". Did he? No. Fail.

So in the end, CMike has failed to demonstrate that the word "Worship" means something other than what I'm saying, using a single definition of a MODERN use of the word "Worship" (see the historical English definitions and you'll see it means pretty much exactly the same as its historical Hebrew definition but as an adjectivE TO BE WORTHY of being kneeled to), and is relying on Theological presumptions to avoid the fact that the modern definition of "Worship" has been distorted.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Shermana
Does it have to do with your particular Theological presumption? The examples you showed in no way whatsoever prove that it means "pray to" exclusively, if anything they demonstrate my own definition. And before you use your Chabad translation, be aware that numerous translations deliberately change it to its more direct meaning in order to avoid the implications that using the same word normally used, "Worship" would imply here, due to their more post-2nd-temple theological presumptions.

Please by all means, show that the word means "pray to" instead of "Bow down to" exclusively. Funny how the same word you say means "pray" means "Bow down" in your own example. How odd. Do you think "worship" has multiple meanings based on different contexts or something?

Be careful about lying when it comes to Hebrew definitions to suit your point...you're aware there are different words for pray and bow, right? Hopefully so.

Like where ?
Frankly, I don't understand your questions.

Hi CMike, I am using this post of yours to Answer your and Shermana's previous posts.

What was hard to understand concerning those Hebrew sentences which Shermana posted and I posted from the Masoretic text? Aren't both expressing the same message?

Context does matter sometimes.

The context is what gives understanding to anything which is written following those previous statements/ideas/etc.

This is in hebrew. Often there isn't an exact translations. Here it is pretty clear though.

That principle applies to any treanslation from one language into another language. However, usually, a similar synonym or expression will convey the writer's meaning/message.
It is my belief that the HOLY Spirit of GOD would not use or allow words nor expressions which would convey a different meaning from that which is acceptable as the Will of GOD--- and could be understood by the Seeker for Truth.

Also, once again, the Torah was written by jews, for jews, and to be interpreted jews. That christian translations pervert a chunk of the text is not surprising and pretty common.

Mike, that isn't what the torah teaches. The torah teaches that all that was recorded by Moses was to be for ALL who would choose to have GOD as their GOD.
(Deut.10:17; 2Chron.19:7; Num.15:16, 29; Ex.12:48; Deut.31:12)

Agreed, there are many "professed Christians" who have preverted the Teachings of GOD as there were "back-slidings" by the Israelites.
However, the Bibles, as a whole, still teach/have the same principles/messages as are seen in the O.T..

Jews take the Torah seriously. Each word is very important. Jews aren't going to intentionally change translations for any reason.

Anyone seriously seeking The Creator GOD, will take the Truths revealed in the Word of GOD as the Truths which they are. It is only the unrepentant who seeks to prevert the "Thus saith the LORD GOD". (A feat that is impossible. GOD'S Word is everlasting.)

Also, once again, G-D said in numerous passages that only he is to be worshipped, trusted, be considered the saviour, etc.

And in those passages, the intent is as the LORD GOD of one's life.(The Creator GOD.)

Kings were given proper respect as accorded to a king, but no jewish king would expect to be worshipped.

=Worship is found in the O.T. 172 times and is translated/ used in these manners.

Again, the Hebrew word= shachah =Worship is found in the O.T. 172 times and is translated/used in these ways in the KJV:worship 99, bow 31, bow down 18, obeisance 9, reverence 5, fall down 3, themselves 2, stoop 1, crouch 1, misc 3

These usages were applied to:
1) to bow down
a) (Qal) to bow down
b) (Hiphil) to depress (fig)
c) (Hithpael)
1) to bow down, prostrate oneself
a) before superior in homage
b) before God in worship
c) before false gods
d) before angel

As one can see, there isn't anything sacred in the act of "shachah"---"bowing down", but, in the motivation of the purpose/intent of the heart/mind.

 

[javajo]

There is a reassuring couplet in 2 Timothy 2 which some believe was probably an early hymn that says,

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

The first part just means that if we "be dead with him",that is have trusted him and so are dead to sin (not sinless), we have eternal life with him, and if we suffer persecution for him, we will reign with him.

The next part is KEY: that if we deny him, that is we do not believe in him and trust him for eternal life, he will deny us eternal life. BUT if we HAVE trusted him and so he lives in us, even if we fall into unbelief and doubt, he will still be faithful to us, we will still have eternal life, because he is in us and he cannot deny himself.

That is a very assuring verse for all who have trusted Christ and have eternal life, yet who have fallen, had doubts and had serious blows to their faith even to the point that they were not sure they believed anymore. But the assurance of our salvation is that he is faithful, for he did the saving, he does the keeping, to the glory of Christ alone.

 

[Oryonder]

Here is the KJV translation: Ex.20:3-5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God,..."
All those gods that commandment is referring to were made by human beings. They have no life nor knowledge.

Worship=shachak=to bow down; prostrate one's self in honor, respect

Therefore, when one replaces the honor respect, obedience due to the Creator GOD, with creations from one's own mind/imagination, one has "bowed down"/"worshiped" other than the true GOD.

I find the "I am a jealous God" comment unbelievable.

What on earth would an all powerfull being have to be jealous of unless God is not that powerful. Attachings petty human emotions to an all powerfull being just does not make any sense.

If God wanted to "not be jealous" then God should not have created beings that worship other Gods.

or .. if God wanted humans to show more reverence then why not just show up from time to time to remind us who is boss ?

That God would
1) create humans with a brain that was able to question
2) not give any valid evidence for the existence of a God

and

3) **** That God would expect the rational, questioning, and logical beings that he created, to believe in something irrational, illogical and to believe this without question even though there is no valid evidence would make God either a trickster or at worst a bit foolish dont you think ?

Somewhere in the middle is irrational and illogical.

Claiming that the Bible is evidence (and the Bible is not "valid" evidence of anything) but even if we can get over the "not valid part", the Bible does not even make a coherent case for God.

There are way to many contradictions .. God changing the rules from one millenia to the next .. the absolute impossibility of the flood story except by magic which again makes God look a bit silly because if God was to use Magic there is no point in sending a flood.

That God would create a rational and logical questioning being, and expect that being to believe "without question" the irrational illogical stories in the Bible is completely irrational and illogical.

The list of saved would then be people who were not very logical or rational .. not very good examples of Gods creation.

Having such "unfit" humans get saved seems to go against nature's rule of survival of the fittest .. which also we must presume was created by God.

 

[Shermana]

There is a reassuring couplet in 2 Timothy 2 which some believe was probably an early hymn that says,

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

The first part just means that if we "be dead with him",that is have trusted him and so are dead to sin (not sinless), we have eternal life with him, and if we suffer persecution for him, we will reign with him.

The next part is KEY: that if we deny him, that is we do not believe in him and trust him for eternal life, he will deny us eternal life. BUT if we HAVE trusted him and so he lives in us, even if we fall into unbelief and doubt, he will still be faithful to us, we will still have eternal life, because he is in us and he cannot deny himself.

That is a very assuring verse for all who have trusted Christ and have eternal life, yet who have fallen, had doubts and had serious blows to their faith even to the point that they were not sure they believed anymore. But the assurance of our salvation is that he is faithful, for he did the saving, he does the keeping, to the glory of Christ alone.

Besides the fact that 2 Timothy is Pseudipigraphic, let's examine the rest of the context: The word here is also used for "Disown".

If we disown him,
he will also disown us;

(NIV)

Disown can mean those who simply turn their back on belief in him altogether. There's nothing in it to support your particular Theology. Also, perhaps you'd like to explain what exactly you think "Dead to sin" means. Do you think this means you can sin however you want but what you do is not considered sin? Since you say "Not sinless", how do you define "Dead to sin", as a "Get out of sin free" Card where sin is not really sin? Obviously it means avoiding sin (i.e. "lawlessness").

Now also note another critical issue: It says we must ENDURE or SUFFER. Do you think suffering or enduring merely means keeping up this particular Theology of yours? I assume you don't think it involves actually obeying his teachings, right?

So how does the suffering part play into your equation?

 

[Shermana]

I find the "I am a jealous God" comment unbelievable.

What on earth would an all powerfull being have to be jealous of unless God is not that powerful. Attachings petty human emotions to an all powerfull being just does not make any sense.

You can be the most powerful being possible, but you can still feel anger at your followers choosing to abandon you for inferior beings. Why are human emotions "petty"? Is it "petty" to feel jealous if your woman starts flirting with another man? Similar concept. I don't see anything weak about having "Jealousy" if your Chosen Elect decide to abandon you because they want to seek after instant gratification provided by demonic beings through witchcraft and idolatry. If he wasn't "Jealous" that would mean he didn't have true love for his followers who are foolishly rejecting the Greater god for the lesser god, no?

or .. if God wanted humans to show more reverence then why not just show up from time to time to remind us who is boss ?

Here begins a whole another issue. In the Septuagint of Deut 32, (altered in the Masoretic for obvious reasons), it says all the nations are appointed their own god (i.e. a "son of God), so he's only really jealous when the Israelites turn against Him, who are "His portion". This concept was lost when the overzealous "Monotheists" decided to trade in the Henotheistic roots for a more "Universalist" approach, probably around the end of the 2nd Temple period.

 

[Oryonder]

You can be the most powerful being possible, but you can still feel anger at your followers choosing to abandon you for inferior beings. Why are human emotions "petty"? Is it "petty" to feel jealous if your woman starts flirting with another man? Similar concept. I don't see anything weak about having "Jealousy" if your Chosen Elect decide to abandon you because they want to seek after instant gratification provided by demonic beings through witchcraft and idolatry. If he wasn't "Jealous" that would mean he didn't have true love for his followers who are foolishly rejecting the Greater god for the lesser god, no?


Here begins a whole another issue. In the Septuagint of Deut 32, (altered in the Masoretic for obvious reasons), it says all the nations are appointed their own god (i.e. a "son of God), so he's only really jealous when the Israelites turn against Him, who are "His portion". This concept was lost when the overzealous "Monotheists" decided to trade in the Henotheistic roots for a more "Universalist" approach, probably around the end of the 2nd Temple period.

Yes but here is the rub. You are forgetting that God ceated these beings.

If I have a machine that can be programmed to do many things and I program it to mow my lawn but it paints my house whose fault is that?
What sense does it make to get mad at the machine when it is the programmers fault.

 

[Shermana]

Yes but here is the rub. You are forgetting that God ceated these beings.

If I have a machine that can be programmed to do many things and I program it to mow my lawn but it paints my house whose fault is that?
What sense does it make to get mad at the machine when it is the programmers fault.

Wouldn't that make it all the more reasonable that the beings He created with free will, in their rejecting Him with their free will (and poor use of it) would make Him jealous? The problem with your analogy is that the only kinds of "machines" we are is that of the flesh which our soul inhabits (and the soul is a very biblical concept despite what some Millerites may say), we still have that "Free Will" thing, and even if you want to take it into a debate on Free Will, the Bible seems to indicate that while some events may be determined, we are still able to choose for ourselves. And if that involves not choosing to serve Him as god, I can very well see why He'd be jealous.

 

[Bob Dixon]

You can be the most powerful being possible, but you can still feel anger at your followers choosing to abandon you for inferior beings. Why are human emotions "petty"? Is it "petty" to feel jealous if your woman starts flirting with another man? Similar concept. I don't see anything weak about having "Jealousy" if your Chosen Elect decide to abandon you because they want to seek after instant gratification provided by demonic beings through witchcraft and idolatry. If he wasn't "Jealous" that would mean he didn't have true love for his followers who are foolishly rejecting the Greater god for the lesser god, no?

I can see where you're coming from, but don't you think that ascribing emotions to God is kind of... wrong? I mean, isn't He above such human things? The idea that God gets jealous is a useful one that can help one remind oneself of the fact that only God should be worshipped and it is not beneficial to worship other gods, but to think that God actually has emotions is like giving Him human attributes.

Here begins a whole another issue. In the Septuagint of Deut 32, (altered in the Masoretic for obvious reasons), it says all the nations are appointed their own god (i.e. a "son of God), so he's only really jealous when the Israelites turn against Him, who are "His portion". This concept was lost when the overzealous "Monotheists" decided to trade in the Henotheistic roots for a more "Universalist" approach, probably around the end of the 2nd Temple period.

OK, now I can't disagree on this, but can you give us the actual Septuagint text?

 

[Shermana]

I can see where you're coming from, but don't you think that ascribing emotions to God is kind of... wrong?

Not by any stretch. The text itself applies emotions to Him.

I mean, isn't He above such human things?

Define "above". Can He love? If so, case in point.

The idea that God gets jealous is a useful one that can help one remind oneself of the fact that only God should be worshipped and it is not beneficial to worship other gods, but to think that God actually has emotions is like giving Him human attributes.

Who is to say He doesn't have so-called "human" attributes? Does it say He communicates with humans? Does it say He has great wrath and anger when they disobey? There is nothing scripturally wrong. We are made in the image of the gods, if anything it is us who have faulty traces of "Divine" attributes, not the other way around.

OK, now I can't disagree on this, but can you give us the actual Septuagint text?

Certainly.

Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God: Heiser

First paragraph.

 

[sincerly]

(Re: "worship")

8. In the end, the word only ever means "to show physical display of obedience". Thus, when John "Worships" the Angel, was he not supposed to have known not to worship the Angel? The angel rebukes him because they are of the same RANK. Those who use this verse are calling John an idiot basically or saying that he would blaspheme and commit idolatry as if he didn't know the Law.

Yes, Bow down in submitted service to the Creator GOD----But not to render the same to others AS ONE'S GOD.

The verse does say that John bowed down to the Angel after hearing the full message and was received and a glorious outcome was to be had despite all the tribulations and persecutions between the first and last issues of the message. John was not acknowledging the Angel as his GOD.
However, we are not privy to why the Angel's response was as it was.
With the Message given and a part of it reflecting back to Creation and the beginning of Evil and the Casting out of 1/3 of the Angel's from heaven, it is not unreasonable to remind John to avoid even the appearance of evil.-----"Worship GOD".

Nothing I see in the Scriptures indicates a "Ranking"----"betterment of one individual over another". ALL are equal in the sight of GOD.
Yes, there will still be those who are leaders and those will be chosen/Appointed by GOD. That is "the chain of command"---Jesus only did that which the Father asked HIM to do and say while HE was here.
Under the rule of LOVE, ALL will be willing to "serve their brethren".

 

[Shermana]

The point being, John wouldn't have worshiped the Angel at all if he believed he shouldn't bow down to beings higher than him than God. The only argument against that is that he had some kind of blasphemous lapse, or he never learned the concept, which would not be likely if he was a prophet. As for the rank, it plainly says "For I am a prophet like yourself", why would he say that? Why would John bow to him? Obviously not acknowledging him as God. Why would the Angel tell him not to? Because he was a prophet like him. Same rank.

 

[Oryonder]

Wouldn't that make it all the more reasonable that the beings He created with free will, in their rejecting Him with their free will (and poor use of it) would make Him jealous? The problem with your analogy is that the only kinds of "machines" we are is that of the flesh which our soul inhabits (and the soul is a very biblical concept despite what some Millerites may say), we still have that "Free Will" thing, and even if you want to take it into a debate on Free Will, the Bible seems to indicate that while some events may be determined, we are still able to choose for ourselves. And if that involves not choosing to serve Him as god, I can very well see why He'd be jealous.

When you create a being with free will then that is the risk one takes.

What humans were also given was reason and logic. Since there is no valid evidence given to us for God. God should be pleased that we use this reason and logic to not believe in myths and fair tales.