What does the fossil record say?

[jarofthoughts]

Same old story again...

Creationists demanding justification and evidence for well established scientific theories, all the while providing none of their own to support their claims and "ideas", which by the way is just the same refuted nonsense time and again. Do they have like a training program for these people? :sarcastic

You'd think some of them would wise up eventually and go read a proper textbook at some point...

 

[outhouse]

Do they have like a training program for these people? :sarcastic

yes they do.

they made 44 million in 08

its big buisiness to teach creation

 

[wilsoncole]

The evidence points to the idea that the mass extinction of the dinosaurs happened because of an asteriod not a flood. Other animals are seen dying because of volcanic activity, not flooding. This is evidence against the idea that the flood created the geological column.

You make me wonder if one asteroid wiped out ALL the dinosaurs, if an asteroid shower killed them all, and if there was a time when only dinosaurs existed on the earth.
Think you can fill me in on that?
What does the "evidence" point to?

And don't allow yourself to be browbeaten by these people who think that flowers and snowflakes and water and insects can make themselves.

I cannot see the intelligence in such concepts.

 

[wilsoncole]

Nature is the material world, particularly as without human intervention. That which is, and can be perceived with the senses.

(A) "A purely materialistic philosophy is to me the height of unintelligence. Wise men in all the ages have always seen enough to at least make them reverent."

(B) "There is a divinity that shapes our ends ..."

(Robert A. Millikan ( Nobel Prize in Physics 1923 "for his work on the elementary charge of electricity and on the photoelectric effect" )
W.-E. Loennig: Nobelpreistraeger und ID
http://millikan.nbaoh.com/1.htm

 

[wilsoncole]

Why must it be conclusive proof that creation did not take place? Must evidence disprove creation before it can be evidence for anything else?

Who said that it must?
Take a look at the remark again:
"If you think it is conclusive proof that creation did not take place, show me how."
If you do not understand what was said, it is not wise to attempt an answer to a question that was asked of someone else.

 

[tumbleweed41]

And don't allow yourself to be browbeaten by these people who think that flowers and snowflakes and water and insects can make themselves.

I cannot see the intelligence in such concepts.

Of course they don't "make themselves", what a ridiculous concept.
They naturally occur due to genetics (flowers, insects) and physics, (water, snowflakes).

No supernatural or magic poofing explanation is necessary.

 

[painted wolf]

You may have arrived as some very erroneous conclusions. You have no idea what I believe.
It is a mistake to think that I see matters exactly as all the other Bible believers that you have encountered.

Your're JW yeah... are you claiming you don't believe in a literal Genesis?

Dinosaur fossils have been found on every continent.
First, I would like to know who told you that all the fossils are the result of the global flood. I know you did not get that from me.

Actually the sources you have already provided supplied that information.

Second, I would like to know if there are sites similar to the Ashfall fossil beds all over the world.

Similar, but from different times at different layers and with different animal communities.

Third, do you think that all the dinosaurs in the world were killed by asteroid action?

No, the Jurassic dinosaurs were extinct long before the Chicxulub impact event and the late Cretaceous dinosaurs were in trouble prior to that thanks to events like the Deccan Traps... and birds are still with us today.
Plus it wasn't just dinosaurs that died in that event... pterosaurs, lots of reptile groups and several types of birds and mammals also went extinct.

Fourth, how many asteroids would that take?

One big one that left the Chicxulub crater. (though a few geolgists have suggested they may have found a couple other craters from the time, so it may have been like Shoemaker-Levey 9)

But this has nothing to do with the Ashfall Fossil beds.

Fifth, are all the fossils in the Ashfall site composed exclusively of dinosaur remains?

There are no dinosaurs... unless you count birds. The fossils are all of particular mammal species that are from a particular time period. They are never found outside of that particular time range. (middle Miocene)

I think you can see where I'm heading.

Have fun, Ms Wolf.

Not really... most of your questions had nothing to do with the Ahsfall Fossil site.

but perhaps now you will address how a dry fluffy ash layer gets deposited during what was supposed to be the flood... unless you don't think the global flood is responsible for the worlds fossil record?

wa:do

 

[wilsoncole]

Of course they don't "make themselves", what a ridiculous concept.
They naturally occur due to genetics (flowers, insects) and physics, (water, snowflakes).

No supernatural or magic poofing explanation is necessary.

See Replies # 438, 441 and 447.

(A) "To postulate, as the positive songwriter of the end of the last century and their followers have done, that the development and survival of the fittest is entirely a consequence of chance mutations, or even that nature carries out experiments by trial and error through mutations in order to create living systems better fitted to survive, seems to me a hypothesis based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts. ... The classical evolutionary theories are a gross oversimplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts, and It Amazes me that they were swallowed uncritically and readily Sun, and for such a long time, by so many scientists without a murmur of protest. "

(B) "I have said for years that speculations about the origin of life lead to no useful purpose as even the simplest living system is far too complex to be understood in terms of the extremely primitive chemistry scientists have used in their attempts to explain the unexplainable that happened billions of years ago. God can not be explained away by seeking naive thoughts."
(Sir Ernst Boris Chain Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1945, with Sir Alexander Fleming and Lord Florey "for the discovery of penicillin and its curative effect in various infectious diseases" )
http://www.weloennig.de/Nobelpreistraeger1a.html

 

[micrurus]

See Replies # 438, 441 and 447.

(A) "To postulate, as the positive songwriter of the end of the last century and their followers have done, that the development and survival of the fittest is entirely a consequence of chance mutations, or even that nature carries out experiments by trial and error through mutations in order to create living systems better fitted to survive, seems to me a hypothesis based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts. ...

common, there is evidence fot evolution, just saying that the ToE is based on no evidence isn't going to make the evidence dissapear.
irreconclible with the facts? please do give me an example.

The classical evolutionary theories are a gross oversimplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts,

any one can make things sound complicated, it takes a genious to make things sound simple. Newtons laws being the greatest example of that

and It Amazes me that they were swallowed uncritically and readily Sun, and for such a long time, by so many scientists without a murmur of protest. "

give me a break, ToE is arguably one of the most criticised theorys of science from moment that the origins of species was published t'il now.

(B) "I have said for years that speculations about the origin of life lead to no useful purpose as even the simplest living system is far too complex to be understood in terms of the extremely primitive chemistry scientists have used in their attempts to explain the unexplainable that happened billions of years ago. God can not be explained away by seeking naive thoughts."
(Sir Ernst Boris Chain Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1945, with Sir Alexander Fleming and Lord Florey "for the discovery of penicillin and its curative effect in various infectious diseases" )
W.-E. Loennig: Nobelpreistraeger und ID

Sir Ernst Boris Chain is criticising the origin of life here hes criticising abiogenesis, ToE doesn't even try to explain the origing of life

 

[tumbleweed41]

And don't allow yourself to be browbeaten by these people who think that flowers and snowflakes and water and insects can make themselves.

I cannot see the intelligence in such concepts.

Of course they don't "make themselves", what a ridiculous concept.
They naturally occur due to genetics (flowers, insects) and physics, (water, snowflakes).

No supernatural or magic poofing explanation is necessary.

See Replies # 438, 441 and 447.

(A) "To postulate, as the positive songwriter of the end of the last century and their followers have done, that the development and survival of the fittest is entirely a consequence of chance mutations, or even that nature carries out experiments by trial and error through mutations in order to create living systems better fitted to survive, seems to me a hypothesis based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts. ... The classical evolutionary theories are a gross oversimplification of an immensely complex and intricate mass of facts, and It Amazes me that they were swallowed uncritically and readily Sun, and for such a long time, by so many scientists without a murmur of protest. "

(B) "I have said for years that speculations about the origin of life lead to no useful purpose as even the simplest living system is far too complex to be understood in terms of the extremely primitive chemistry scientists have used in their attempts to explain the unexplainable that happened billions of years ago. God can not be explained away by seeking naive thoughts."
(Sir Ernst Boris Chain Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1945, with Sir Alexander Fleming and Lord Florey "for the discovery of penicillin and its curative effect in various infectious diseases" )
W.-E. Loennig: Nobelpreistraeger und ID

Nice, but again, in reply to your claim, of course they don't "make themselves", what a ridiculous concept.
They naturally occur due to genetics (flowers, insects) and physics, (water, snowflakes).

No supernatural or magic poofing explanation is necessary.

You seem to be the one advocating the supernatural "poofing", and by a singular certain deity at that.

 

[outhouse]

You good folks know.

there is nothing you can type

there are no pictures you can post

there are no diagrams

there is no evidence


there is nothing you can put here that will change this persons mind

they will not debate, they however, generally ignore, plagiarize and lie! at bes,t to protect a 3000 year old sheep herders manual

 

[Autodidact]

You mean the question was not clear enough for you?

Correct. The referent was ambiguous.

You have a really fancy way to duck the hard questions.
Do you want me to type out what the theory of Evolution says? Problem with that is - it is not uniform. Even prominent advocates often disagree with each other. "Punctuated Equilibrium" for an example. Richard Dawkins says life suddenly sprang up from nowhere - others say they're still working on it.

I want you to state whether you understand or not. The fact that you post on everything but (and the fact that you're a creationist) causes me to question it. For example, this paragraph is false. There is no substantial disagreement as to the core of ToE, abiogenesis has nothing to do with it. In fact, yes, that would be great. Type out what you think ToE actually says.

Every devotee gets a different view of the subject, just like organized religion. And every time they get in a squeeze they come out with: "That's not what the ToE says!"
Like that most confusing document, the US Constitution, NOBODY seems to know what the ToE means. The one common thread that I have found is that it binds together all opposers of God.

Really? Have you tried wiki? Or the UC Berkeley site? Or NCSE? Or a basic Biology book? I think you'll find they all say pretty much the same thing. Do you need help finding them?

I promise you this: The ToE will collapse with the biggest thud you ever heard.
Financial troubles will lead the way. Just wait.

And I should rely on your promises because...? As opposed to ToE, which has kept every promise.

 

[Autodidact]

You're right - no debate! Your screaming and spitting does not promote it.
Lies:
EVERYTHING you said about the Bible is a lie!
You said someone in the Bible claimed to have 900 wives? LIE!
You said that not 1000 people lived in that territory at that time - LIE!
You said that “genesis was told around campfires for 300-500 years before it was written down.” - LIE!
You said “many books were compiled to get the verses we have now with 5 different authors.” - LIE!
If these are not lies, then prove them! I don’t think you can do that.
And if you can't prove them, who's the liar?

If you keep pushing I will flood you with facts about the Bible that will boggle your mind.

I am still waiting for your response to my post about the archealogical findings on David and Solomon.

Please do so in another thread, this is one is supposed to be about fossils and evolution.

 

[Autodidact]

Solomon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Solomon had seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines.

at the time of the Davidic and Solomonic kingdoms, Jerusalem may have been unpopulated, or at most populated by only a few hundred residents


shall I go on, please get a educatuion, your embarrassing yourself

authors of genesis

Writers of the Book of Genesis

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]J: a writer who used Yahweh/Jehovah as the divine name.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]E: a writer who used Elohim as the divine name. *[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]P: a writer who added material of major interest to the priesthood.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]D: the author of the book of Deuteronomy. *[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]R: a redactor who welded the contributions of J, E and P together into the present Pentateuch.[/FONT]

The authors of Genesis seem have picked up part of their story from Hindu legends of the creation and early history of humanity. Stories of Hindu heros Adimo, Heva, Sherma,, Hama and Jiapheta apparently were replicated into legends about Adam, Eve, Shem Ham, and Japeth.


Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Traditionally attributed to Moses, today most scholars accept that the Pentateuch is "a composite work, the product of many hands and periods.”[25] Genesis 1 and 2 are seen as the products of two separate authors, or schools: Genesis 1 is by an author, or school of authors, called the P (for Priestly), while Genesis 2 is by a different author or group of authors called J (for Jahwist — sometimes called non-P). There are several competing theories as to when and how these two chapters originated — some scholars believe they each come from two originally complete but separate narratives spanning the entire biblical story from creation to the death of Moses, while others believe that P is not a complete narrative but rather a series of edits of the J material, which itself was not a single document so much as a collection of material. In either case, it is generally agreed that the J account (Genesis 2) is older than P (Genesis 1), that both were written during the 1st millennium BC, and that they reached the combined form in which we know them today about 450 BC.

man started writing around 1000bc in that area an the story of moses goes back 300-500 years previous. It was thought that moses exodus was around 1300BC but there is no evidence by anyone or anything at that time. Egyptions wrote many things down and there is no record like that at that time period. You go back to 1475BC ish you starts finding clues about a exodus.



obviously you are

you LIE about evolution which is fact and has been observed

cant wait to hear you lame exuses for the above LOL

Start a thread, you two.

 

[Autodidact]

Lie? Not me.
It might be a legal tactic, but I don't use it.
Check here:
Using the Bible to prove the Bible (disciple, Buddha, churches) - Religion and Philosophy -Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - Page 22 - City-Data Forum
And when you check here:
Do Christians really believe in Noah's Ark? - Yahoo! Answers
take a look at the credit. You will observe:
Source(s)

g75 6?8 p.8

The "g" represents "Awake!" June 8th issue, page 8
I have a copy of the cover, but I have yet to learn how to send it.

So you think it's o.k. to plagiarize a magazine?
Here, I'll help you out. Make your own argument. If you use someone else's work, give the cite. Got it?

 

[Dan4reason]

You make me wonder if one asteroid wiped out ALL the dinosaurs, if an asteroid shower killed them all, and if there was a time when only dinosaurs existed on the earth.

Well, first off there was never a time when only dinosaurs existed on the earth. They lived along with insects and bacteria too and for a while they even lived with small mammals.

That destructive capabilites of an asteriod depends on its size. We know that there are very large asteriods in space but most as very small and are practically harmless. However, a whopper is bound to hit the earth and this happens every several hundred million years or something like that.

A large asteriod is very capable of causing a mass extinction by throwing ash in the air, disrupting photosynthesis, destroying animals in the impace, causing sunamis, and disrupting earths ecology leading to the death of many species.

Think you can fill me in on that?
What does the "evidence" point to?

We find a layer in the fossil record called the K-T boundary.

In the layers before, we see many dinosaurs but afterward there are close to none. Flying animals and mammals were not decimated like the walking dinosaurs however. By looking at the specific elements in this layer, it best support the idea of an impact. We also see this layer all over the world which indicates that this was not a localized impact. Another trace is that we have found a crater which has been dated to about the time period the K-T boundary is. We also have evidence of volcanic activity during the event. Maybe the asteriod also sparked off the volcanoes.

And don't allow yourself to be browbeaten by these people who think that flowers and snowflakes and water and insects can make themselves.

I cannot see the intelligence in such concepts.

Snowflakes are make by natural processes not design and there is no snowflake fairy. No one is saying that life "made itself," we are simply stating that the diversity of life can be explained through the forces of natural selection and mutations.

 

[Autodidact]

There is serious disagreement:
"The scientific magazine Discover put the situation this way: "Evolution .　.　. is not only under attack by fundamentalist Christians, but is also being questioned by reputable scientists. Among paleontologists, scientists who study the fossil record, there is growing dissent from the prevailing view of Darwinism."1 Francis Hitching, an evolutionist and author of the book The Neck of the Giraffe, stated: "For all its acceptance in the scientific world as the great unifying principle of biology, Darwinism, after a century and a quarter, is in a surprising amount of trouble."2

You are mistaken. Hitching is basically a sensational TV script writer and has no scientific credentials.

[talkorigins] He is also a liar, who claims credentials he does not have.

he claimed to be a member of the Royal Archaeological Institute, but an inquiry to that institute said he was not. He implied in the "Acknowledgements" of The Neck of the Giraffe that paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould had helped in the writing of the book, but upon inquiry Gould said he did not know him and had no information about him. Hitching also implied that his book had been endorsed by Richard Dawkins, but upon inquiry Dawkins stated: "I know nothing at all about Francis Hitching. If you are uncovering the fact that he is a charlatan, good for you. His book, The Neck of the Giraffe, is one of the silliest and most ignorant I have read for years."

[talkorigins]

5

After an important conference of some 150 specialists in evolution held in Chicago, Illinois, a report concluded: "[Evolution] is undergoing its broadest and deepest revolution in nearly 50 years. .　.　. Exactly how evolution happened is now a matter of great controversy among biologists. .　.　. No clear resolution of the controversies was in sight.

"3 First, you're plagiarizing again. You have been reported. Second, it's a quote mine, which is nothing but a form of lying. Here the lie is revealed:

OK, so what’s next? Well, we apparently have a report of some recent conference of 150 specialists who are in controversy over evolution, sounds damming, ah but wait, lets inject a few facts and context here. Its not new, this conference took place over 30 years ago and the quote comes from a New Your Times article published on November 4, 1980. (Once again its very old and not at all new) … and once again they left bits out to twist the meaning, look what happens when I put the missing first sentence back in:
Biology’s understanding of how evolution works, which has long postulated a gradual process of Darwinian natural selection acting on genetic mutations, is undergoing its broadest and deepest revolution in nearly 50 years

from here.

I could go on to reveal the lying and theft in your plagiarized baloney, but it's all been done here.

​

You have a warped sense of humor. That IS funny!
Those people are not Christians at all and I think you know it.
Clergy:
They are the ones who teach that God burns people in hell forever.
They condone and even promote war.
They get involved in politics.
The strive to have laws changed to accomodate religion.
They try to get creation taught in the schools.
They bless guns and troops.
They pray - for a price.
They fleece their flocks.
They condone sexual immorality.
They tolerate even the most extreme aberrant behavior.
They pray for God's blessings to kill even members of their own religion.
They have no Christian love for one another.
Shall I continue?
Why wouldn't they disagree with me?

So what you're saying is that these 12,000 ministers who consider themselves Christian are not Real Christians, and you have the authority to decide that? That is SO interesting. How did you get to be in charge of that?

Is it common for people who call themselves Christian to lie about that?

 

[Autodidact]

The list:

Well now - here is your golden opportunity to point out the ones that are innocent of ALL of those things.

Actually, no, you made the assertion, so it's your turn to name those who are guilty of all of them. You may wish to consult a good libel attorney first.

 

[wilsoncole]

Your're JW yeah... are you claiming you don't believe in a literal Genesis?

Actually the sources you have already provided supplied that information.

Similar, but from different times at different layers and with different animal communities.

No, the Jurassic dinosaurs were extinct long before the Chicxulub impact event and the late Cretaceous dinosaurs were in trouble prior to that thanks to events like the Deccan Traps... and birds are still with us today.
Plus it wasn't just dinosaurs that died in that event... pterosaurs, lots of reptile groups and several types of birds and mammals also went extinct.
One big one that left the Chicxulub crater. (though a few geolgists have suggested they may have found a couple other craters from the time, so it may have been like Shoemaker-Levey 9)

But this has nothing to do with the Ashfall Fossil beds.

There are no dinosaurs... unless you count birds. The fossils are all of particular mammal species that are from a particular time period. They are never found outside of that particular time range. (middle Miocene)

Not really... most of your questions had nothing to do with the Ahsfall Fossil site.

but perhaps now you will address how a dry fluffy ash layer gets deposited during what was supposed to be the flood... unless you don't think the global flood is responsible for the worlds fossil record?

wa:do

I do not! But I do think it is responsible for some of it.
I am just a Bible believer with no expertise in geology.
I don't think you are either.
I think it is time for me to start asking you some tougher questions.
Do you support uniformatarianism or catastrophism?
Can you prove that the geologic column is correct?

I told you I know nothing about Ashfall, did I not?
How old are those ash beds? Whatever date you present, can you verify it?
You ask me about the flood; I did not ask you. That's taken from the Bible - right? When did, do you suppose, the flood take place?
If you don't believe it happened, what can I do about that?
Who said that the flood and the ashfall were simultaneous occurrences?

There is no way that fossils and evolution can be properly discussed without involving religion.
That means origins.
(A) "I believe in the concept of God and in his existence."

(B) "I do not understand how the scientific approach alone, as separated from a religious approach, can explain to origin of all things .... In my view the question of origin seems always left unanswered if we explore from a scientific view alone. "

On the origin of life Townes in part follows the current models, but notes:

(C) "However, I am not at all sure that our present scientific understanding is adequate to explain such a development. Very likely new ideas about complex systems and interactions will be needed. This may even require some type of organizing force or principles Which we do not presently recognize. The simple statement at this point is that I do not know how life originated. "
(Charles H. Townes ( Nobel Prize in Physics together with N. Basow and A. Prokhorov 1964 "for fundamental work in the field of quantum electronics, Which has led to the construction of oscillators and amplifiers based on the maser-laser principle" )
W.-E. Loennig: Nobelpreistraeger und ID

"In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2　Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters. 3　And God proceeded to say: "Let light come to be." Then there came to be light. 4　After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. 5　And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day." (Genesis 1:1-5)

I do not believe that the creative days of Genesis were each of 24-hour duration.
I believe that everything that has ever been made by man has been the result of words.
Think about it before you chuckle because I can prove it.
That being the case, it really is no difficulty for the supreme creator to utter words of creation to his son, the master worker, and have it done.

 

[micrurus]

(C) "However, I am not at all sure that our present scientific understanding is adequate to explain such a development. Very likely new ideas about complex systems and interactions will be needed. This may even require some type of organizing force or principles Which we do not presently recognize. The simple statement at this point is that I do not know how life originated. "
(Charles H. Townes ( Nobel Prize in Physics together with N. Basow and A. Prokhorov 1964 "for fundamental work in the field of quantum electronics, Which has led to the construction of oscillators and amplifiers based on the maser-laser principle" )
W.-E. Loennig: Nobelpreistraeger und ID.

I already explained why this quote doesn't apply to evolution so Im not even going to bother reading your full post.

if your quote mining you can atleast come up with some better results than that don't you think?