What evidence for God

[nonbeliever_92]

Then you have only managed to demonstrate that you do not understand the Kalam argument.

Furthermore, you don't understand that I understand that you don't understand because you, yourself, do not understand that you in fact do not understand. Understand?

Let’s see if we can break it down a bit:
This is going to put you power of reason to the test.

Bring it.

Nothing comes from nothing - do you agree?

Agreed.

Do you believe that the Big Bang actually happened?

Yeppers.

And that moment was the very beginning of the universe, of time and space?

Nope, see this is where you begin to unravel. The big bang theory is not about the Big Bang being the beginning of the universe. It's about the Big Bang being the beginning of the universe in the state AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.
You've just posited ASSUMPTION 1: THE UNIVERSE HAD A BEGINNING/THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED.

Remember, nothing comes from nothing.

Logically, then if anything existed before the Big Bang, it must be outside the boundaries of time and space - right?

Yes, but nothing's been shown to exist 'before' the Big Bang. It's not shown that there is a 'pre'-big bang, anything prior to such is purely speculation and theory. Because Matter and Energy aren't creatable (or at the very least haven't been shown to be creatable) it's not a fantastic conclusion that the Universe (which is made up of matter and energy) was never created, but rather has always existed.

Now, if there was absolutely nothing in existence before the Big Bang, what would be here now?Remember, nothing comes from nothing!

Darn, I almost forgot.

It follows, then, that time and the universe had a beginning and it could not cause itself, then something must have caused it - right?

Oh my, is that ASSUMPTION 2: THE UNIVERSE HAD A CREATOR popping it's head out the hole?

Something that must always have been there.

I call it the Universe

Can you follow this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, or do you need a little more encouragement?

No I don't get it, It's way over my head. I'll go back to coloring now.

So, when you look in the mirror, realize that you are evidence of God because you could not have brought yourself into existence and to this point, since you are unable to feed yourself.

Not only is this *********, you've made the jump to
ASSUMPTION 3: THE UNIVERSE'S CREATOR IS-

GOD - a personal, uncaused, beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, enormously powerful, and enormously intelligent being, which is God.

He is not at all like organized religion makes him out to be.

But quite like how over half of the RFers here have posited him.　
　
　

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What is this, a rabbit?

Well, Wilson, you've in fact presented something totally new and mind blowing, something never before seen anywhere. I commend you, good sir. :clap

 

[outhouse]

It's about the Big Bang being the beginning of the universe in the state AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.

remember bud he has a closed mind and most of the religious can never get their heads around the fact we are two dimensional creatures living in a multi-dimensional universe.

 

[outhouse]

Yes, but nothing's been shown to exist 'before' the Big Bang

not really true. Its not nothing, we just dont know. Its another dimension.

before the universe came to be, there is and was something. It is unknown at this time.

get rid of the nothing and you'll do fine. Matter did not come from nothing, this is a fact.

religious love to use the word nothing because it goes along with the lines of their god figure who says "POOF" and it magically appears. In reality nothing doesnt fly at all

 

[Orias]

not really true. Its not nothing, we just dont know. Its another dimension.

before the universe came to be, there is and was something. It is unknown at this time.

get rid of the nothing and you'll do fine. Matter did not come from nothing, this is a fact.

religious love to use the word nothing because it goes along with the lines of their god figure who says "POOF" and it magically appears. In reality nothing doesnt fly at all

I believe the Bubble and String Theories cover this very well

 

[outhouse]

I believe the Bubble and String Theories cover this very well

yes they do bud, string is still not as tight as bubble though.

our problem is trying to see beyond 13B years is a bit tough

religion grasps on to this lack of knowledge and trys to place magic man in the void as religion has always placed magic man in voids of knowledge.

why cant they learn human history :areyoucra

 

[Orias]

why cant they learn human history :areyoucra

They enjoy redundancy

 

[wilsoncole]

Furthermore, you don't understand that I understand that you don't understand because you, yourself, do not understand that you in fact do not understand. Understand?

What - more misplaced humor in the face of adversity? Pretending to be looney won’t improve your position.

Bring it.

Agreed.

Yeppers.

Nope, see this is where you begin to unravel. The big bang theory is not about the Big Bang being the beginning of the universe. It's about the Big Bang being the beginning of the universe in the state AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.
You've just posited ASSUMPTION 1: THE UNIVERSE HAD A BEGINNING/THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED.

No, Sir! The assumption is entirely yours. How?
You have (1) assumed that there exists a state OTHER than “the way we know it today.”

Yes, but nothing's been shown to exist 'before' the Big Bang.

Who said it has? You have to be careful what you respond to.
Take another look at my statement:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole
“Logically, then if anything existed before the Big Bang, it must be outside the boundaries of time and space - right?”
See? I did not say that anything existed before the Big Bang - You (2) assumed that I did.
I said IF nothing was there then, nothing would be here now because nothing comes from nothing - remember?

It's not shown that there is a 'pre'-big bang, anything prior to such is purely speculation and theory.

That’s right - and I didn’t.

Because Matter and Energy aren't creatable (or at the very least haven't been shown to be creatable) it's not a fantastic conclusion that the Universe (which is made up of matter and energy) was never created, but rather has always existed.

Another assumption on your part! You (3) assume that matter and the Big Bang are one and the same.
If this (3) assumption of yours is correct, then the Big Bang did not happen and the Cosmos was always there.
Is that your present position? Can you prove that the Big Bang did not happen?

Darn, I almost forgot.

Oh my, is that ASSUMPTION 2: THE UNIVERSE HAD A CREATOR popping it's head out the hole?

I call it the Universe No I don't get it, It's way over my head. I'll go back to coloring now.

Not only is this *********, you've made the jump to
ASSUMPTION 3: THE UNIVERSE'S CREATOR IS-

But quite like how over half of the RFers here have posited him.&#12288;
&#12288;
What is this, a rabbit? Well, Wilson, you've in fact presented something totally new and mind blowing, something never before seen anywhere. I commend you, good sir.

Wha?
Now you seem to be losing your mind. That’s understandable.


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&#12288;
Wilson

 

[nonbeliever_92]

What - more misplaced humor in the face of adversity? Pretending to be looney won’t improve your position.

Pretending to be this close minded won't improve yours.

No, Sir! The assumption is entirely yours. How?
You have (1) assumed that there exists a state OTHER than “the way we know it today.”

The state I'm of which speaking is all the stars/planets/nebulas/yadda yadda that makes up the universe. Before all we know as the universe today existed it was a ball of matter/energy that eventually exploded and was the Big Bang.

“Logically, then if anything existed before the Big Bang, it must be outside the boundaries of time and space - right?”

Yes, but again, the point is moot.

See? I did not say that anything existed before the Big Bang - You (2) assumed that I did.

This doesn't address the fact that your argument falls flat.

I said IF nothing was there then, nothing would be here now because nothing comes from nothing - remember?[/quote
No, I forgot.

Another assumption on your part! You (3) assume that matter and the Big Bang are one and the same.

Not an assumption, that's literally what the Big bang Theory says. The Universe (that is all the MATTER & ENERGY that exists, was in a hot dense state and then exploded/expanded.

If this (3) assumption of yours is correct, then the Big Bang did not happen and the Cosmos was always there.

Wait, you know what the Big Bang Theory says, right?

Now you seem to be losing your mind. That’s understandable.

:sarcastic

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^No, Seriously, what is this thing?

 

[ChristineES]

Simple, what evidence is there of there being a god, a higher being, or any of the like?

We believers know that there is no scientific evidence of God, but that is why we call it "faith".

 

[waitasec]

"Show me anything material that has no cause."

the universe...

 

[wilsoncole]

No, Seriously, what is this thing?

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Wilson
&#12288;

 

[wilsoncole]

the universe...

I suggest you read this thread from the beginning. I don't think you did.

In the meantime..................
What is the source of the material?
So what was the Big Bang? Did it happen?
Was it chaotic or was it orderly?


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Wilson

 

[Pegg]

the universe...

the universe came into existence by means of the 'big bang'

that would be a cause

 

[wilsoncole]

Originally posted by wilsoncole
Now you want to argue without cause!

The state I'm of which speaking is all the stars/planets/nebulas/yadda yadda that makes up the universe.
Before all we know as the universe today existed it was a ball of matter/energy that eventually exploded and was the Big Bang.

I said that! What do you imagine this means?:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole &#65532;
"And that moment was the very beginning of the universe, of time and space?"

Nope, see this is where you begin to unravel. The big bang theory is not about the Big Bang being the beginning of the universe. It's about the Big Bang being the beginning of the universe in the state AS WE KNOW IT TODAY.
You've just posited ASSUMPTION 1: THE UNIVERSE HAD A BEGINNING/THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED.

Is there another way? Did the Big Bang happen?
And you&#8217;ve taken the position that hangs on an assumption.
Here you are assuming that the Big Bang was the very beginning of the universe, of time and space in a state AS WE DO NOT KNOW IT TODAY.
You&#8217;ve just posited your assumption: THE BIG BANG MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED/ THE UNIVERSE CAME ABOUT IN A WAY WE DO NOT KNOW.
But you are wrong! We know the Big Bang happened and the rest follows.

Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
Now, if there was absolutely nothing in existence before the Big Bang, there would be nothing here now. Remember, nothing comes from nothing!

Is something wrong with this?

Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
It follows, then, that time and the universe had a beginning and it could not cause itself, then something must have caused it - right?

Oh my, is that ASSUMPTION 2: THE UNIVERSE HAD A CREATOR popping it's head out the hole?

What hole? You mean the one in your head?
I said nothing about a creator - YOU DID! I said &#8220;something must have caused it!" Something wrong with that?

Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
Something that must always have been there.

I call it the Universe.

But you just admitted that the universe (Cosmos) had a beginning! The Big Bang - remember? It cannot have an established beginning and still always have been there.
Your power of reason flew the coop right there.

All of the assumptions are yours.


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Wilson

 

[waitasec]

In the meantime..................
What is the source of the material?

but you can ask the same thing about god...
what is the source of god?

So what was the Big Bang? Did it happen?

maybe instead of approaching it as what was the big bang with the understanding of intent
the question should come from the point of view of...is it even possible to consider the why when we've just scratched the surface of the how.
and the question now changes...how did the universe start...?

Was it chaotic or was it orderly?

why does the big bang have to be chaotic or orderly? these concepts are limiting the possibilities.

maybe these are the wrong questions to ask, because it only leads to purpose and meaning...
chaos is a word we use to describe our inability to control something...
we are ultimately not in control and are subjected to indifference...

 

[waitasec]

the universe came into existence by means of the 'big bang'

that would be a cause

how do you know...?



the "cause" mentality is a circumstance from our limited capabilities of understanding...

why assume a purpose?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Originally posted by wilsoncole
Now you want to argue without cause!

I said that! What do you imagine this means?:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole &#65532;
"And that moment was the very beginning of the universe, of time and space?"
Is there another way? Did the Big Bang happen?
And you’ve taken the position that hangs on an assumption.
Here you are assuming that the Big Bang was the very beginning of the universe, of time and space in a state AS WE DO NOT KNOW IT TODAY.
You’ve just posited your assumption: THE BIG BANG MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED/ THE UNIVERSE CAME ABOUT IN A WAY WE DO NOT KNOW.
But you are wrong! We know the Big Bang happened and the rest follows.
Is something wrong with this?
What hole? You mean the one in your head?
I said nothing about a creator - YOU DID! I said “something must have caused it!" Something wrong with that?
But you just admitted that the universe (Cosmos) had a beginning! The Big Bang - remember? It cannot have an established beginning and still always have been there.
Your power of reason flew the coop right there.

All of the assumptions are yours.


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>(^)<

Wilson

I did not say the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe, i said it was the beginning of the universe as we know it today. You're taking the Big Bang as an event that that happened and had a cause I'm saying that no cause is necessary, that matter/energy has always existed whether in the form of cosmic matter such as stars/planets/nebulae/yadda yadda yadda or in the form of the dense ball of matter/energy that was before it started to expand. No creator nor creating agent is required if the raw materials has always existed.

Until you grasp this we cannot continue.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

the universe came into existence by means of the 'big bang'

that would be a cause

No the matter/energy that is the universe today has always existed, or at least it's thought so because matter/energy can't be created. The big bang was just the ball of matter and energy that would later expand into the universe.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

And Wilson Cole, I would like to point out that you are still yet to prodeuce any evidence.

 

[waitasec]

here's an interesting article...

Dark Matter: New Evidence on How Galaxies Are Born - TIME