What evidence for God

[nonbeliever_92]

No!
I mean God is not physical.

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Wilson

Name something that's physical and immaterial. Besides your 'god.'

 

[wilsoncole]

No you didn't.
at least, not in this thread.

I have been paying attention.
Thus my request to prove it.

I did.
And though it makes all manner of claims, it fails to support any of them with any thing other than more unsubstantiated claims.

Yet you chose not to challenge any of them. How come?
See Reply # 306.

What I find interesting is that you complain that other people do exactly what you are doing, making assumptions at what there was before the big bang.

I made no such assumption. If you insist, then point them out! Well - name them.

You have NOT been paying attention!
I made no complaint! I DEFENDED the charge of making assumptions, by pointing out the assumptions of the accuser. See Reply # 322.
You tried already.

So let me ask this: Is god a something or a nothing?
Let the mental gymnastics begin...

That's not difficult.

Things are inanimate.

So - Neither.
He's a someONE!

(Didn't expect that - did ya?)


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Wilson

 

[nonbeliever_92]

"Show me anything material that has no cause, origin, source or creator."

All matter and energy i.e. the Universe. I honestly think I have said this about thirty times in this thread alone but you never seem to get it.

The material creation is evidence of God.

No it isn't. It's evidence of itself.

A Question and I want you to seriously answer this and not avoid/dismiss it:

If there is a "creator" to the Universe, where does this creator come from?

 

[wilsoncole]

Dismissing the fallacy of Special Pleading, your argument fails in that cause and effect apply only when interacting with spacetime.

Mr Weed,
You are off your horse!
There is no "Special Pleading" here.
I said "nothing comes from nothing."
Can you prove otherwise?

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Wilson

 

[tumbleweed41]

Dismissing the fallacy of Special Pleading,

Mr Weed,
You are off your horse!
There is no "Special Pleading" here.
I said "nothing comes from nothing."
Can you prove otherwise?

Let's put it this way:
"Show me anything material that has no cause."

Special Pleading. But like I said,

Spacetime did not exist until the after the first Planck Time.
One cannot argue "cause/effect" when no cause can be shown to be necessary outside of spacetime, or even at the quantum level.

This is not to say there is no cause, only that cause cannot be shown to be necessary.
Without necessity, even your special pleading is pointless.

 

[wilsoncole]

All matter and energy i.e. the Universe. I honestly think I have said this about thirty times in this thread alone but you never seem to get it.

You said it. That does not make it so.
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
The material creation is evidence of God.

No it isn't. It's evidence of itself.

So, you, a material creation, are evidence of yourself, meaning you had no beginning - right?

A Question and I want you to seriously answer this and not avoid/dismiss it:

If there is a "creator" to the Universe, where does this creator come from?

You have not been paying attention.
He was always there.
See Reply # 335.

Originally Posted by wilsoncole
Now, if there was absolutely nothing in existence before the Big Bang, there would be absolutely nothing here now. Remember, nothing comes from nothing!

I think this guy says it better than I could:

[youtube]Sr5lY0TcdAw[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr5lY0TcdAw



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Wilson

 

[wilsoncole]

Special Pleading. But like I said,

Spacetime did not exist until the after the first Planck Time.
One cannot argue "cause/effect" when no cause can be shown to be necessary outside of spacetime, or even at the quantum level.

This is not to say there is no cause, only that cause cannot be shown to be necessary.
Without necessity, even your special pleading is pointless.

Nothing comes from nothing.
Can you prove otherwise?


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Wilson

 

[tumbleweed41]

Now, if there was absolutely nothing in existence before the Big Bang, there would be absolutely nothing here now.

Nothing comes from nothing.
Can you prove otherwise?

False logic.
Arguing cause and effect is pointless when discussing any period before the second Planck Time.
Nothing and something are meaningless without time and space.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

You have not been paying attention.
He was always there.

If your 'creator' has always existed, why can't the same be said for the Universe?

You say that everything has a creator, everything must have an origin but you do so by positing a creator that doesn't need an origin. it doesn't add anything to the equation.
It's like 5+2+x=7.
Where x=God.

You keep saying "everything has a cause, nothing comes from nothing, etc." But what I'm saying is that the Universe was causeless and had always existed because matter/energy can't be created/destroyed. I'm not saying that the Universe came from nothing, I'm saying that it never came at all.

You fail to realize that the Big Bang is not the 'beginning' of matter and energy, but the expanison of matter and energy that became the Universe. Understand?

 

[wilsoncole]

Special Pleading. But like I said,

Spacetime did not exist until the after the first Planck Time.
One cannot argue "cause/effect" when no cause can be shown to be necessary outside of spacetime, or even at the quantum level.

This is not to say there is no cause, only that cause cannot be shown to be necessary.
Without necessity, even your special pleading is pointless.

Of course it can! Take you head out of your book of fallacies!
Then why do you refer to it as "CAUSE?"
The very word itself is indicative of necessity.
CAUSE:definition:
cause [kawz]
n (plural caus·es)
1. what makes something happen: something that or somebody who makes something happen or exist or is responsible for a certain result.

There's your engine.
That's what makes your vehicle move.

BTW: Special pleading does not apply here;

Fallacy: Special Pleading

Now - try something else.


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Wilson

 

[wilsoncole]

False logic.
Arguing cause and effect is pointless when discussing any period before the second Planck Time.
Nothing and something are meaningless without time and space.

Then we must begin at the beginning - right?
So - when did THEY begin?

Your logic is seriously flawed!


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Wilson

 

[averageJOE]

I think Wilsoncole's logic can be labled as the "Howditgethere" argument.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-vs-religion/110699-bill-oreilly-uh-hodigethere.html

 

[tumbleweed41]

Nothing comes from nothing.
Can you prove otherwise?


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Wilson

Special Pleading. But like I said,

Spacetime did not exist until the after the first Planck Time.
One cannot argue "cause/effect" when no cause can be shown to be necessary outside of spacetime, or even at the quantum level.

This is not to say there is no cause, only that cause cannot be shown to be necessary.
Without necessity, even your special pleading is pointless.

Of course it can! Take you head out of your book of fallacies!
Then why do you refer to it as "CAUSE?"
The very word itself is indicative of necessity.
CAUSE:definition:
cause [kawz]
n (plural caus·es)
1. what makes something happen: something that or somebody who makes something happen or exist or is responsible for a certain result.

There's your engine.
That's what makes your vehicle move.

Yes Wilson, I am sure we all understand what a cause is.
What you seem to ignore is that cause and effect, or your "something from something" and "nothing from nothing" are only necessary when interacting within the spacetime of our Universe.

Time, space, cause, effect, something, nothing, etc... are all entirely meaningless before the second Planck Time of our Universe.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Then we must begin at the beginning - right?
So - when did THEY begin?

Era of 1 Planck Time.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Name something that's physical and immaterial. Besides your 'god.'

You've yet to respond to this, Wilson.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

If your 'creator' has always existed, why can't the same be said for the Universe?

You say that everything has a creator, everything must have an origin but you do so by positing a creator that doesn't need an origin. it doesn't add anything to the equation.
It's like 5+2+x=7.
Where x=God.

You keep saying "everything has a cause, nothing comes from nothing, etc." But what I'm saying is that the Universe was causeless and had always existed because matter/energy can't be created/destroyed. I'm not saying that the Universe came from nothing, I'm saying that it never came at all.

You fail to realize that the Big Bang is not the 'beginning' of matter and energy, but the expanison of matter and energy that became the Universe. Understand?

Or this.

 

[McBell]

(Didn't expect that - did ya?)

Actually I did expect you to avoid answering the question.
You did not disappoint.

 

[McBell]

Nothing comes from nothing.
Can you prove otherwise?

Actually, it would be on you to prove your claim.

Interesting how you refuse to address the fact that if god exists, he also had to come from something.
Remember, nothing can come from nothing.

 

[outhouse]

atleast we are all in agreement there is no proof for a god of any type, there never will be either.

thank goodness we dont all try and find faults in other things to prove that a god is real [facepalm] like a few folks here.

 

[Orias]

Can we at least agree that "evidence" is subjected to one as they chose to see it?