What evidence for God

[tumbleweed41]

What world are you living in?
The Planck Epoch is only theory. Totally speculative! The Big Bang is not.
You could not know nor verify anything about that theoretical time.

They are both Scientific Theories.
And cause/effect are only applicable when interacting with spacetime.
The Singularity does not exist in spacetime. Spacetime exists within the Singularity (Universe).
Thus rendering your nothing from nothing/something from something argument meaningless.

 

[Frank Merton]

C cause/effect are only applicable when interacting with space-time.

In addition, causation is limited to realms we call "macro." At the atomic and smaller levels it disappears, and even in our larger realms it seems it is largely an illusion with all sorts of philosophical difficulties.

What happens is really what is called the "law of large numbers." Things happen randomly at the atomic level, but probabilities can be determined.

Beings existing at our macro-atomic size scales are composed of so many gazillions of these randomly behaving atomic particles that the probabilities utterly dominate and the randomness seems to disappear.

So, then, the prevailing notion that everything has a cause is really an illusion. Things happen randomly, in accordance with probabilities, but with gazillions of events involved, the chances of a violation of what seems to be causation are vanishingly small.

Opening the vial on the perfume jar "causes" the odor to spread into the air, but what is really happening are random motions of particles leading to a probability setup where only once in eons will the odor particles not go into the air.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

There is no such thing.

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Wilson

So why and how is your god the exception?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Because we know when the Universe began.
You may not even notice that you are talking about THINGS!
Energy and matter do not a universe make. They are only the building materials. They cannot become a Universe unassisted. They cannot establish and maintain orbits. They cannot keep their proper distances from each other. They cannot regulate their chemistry. They cannot prevent themselves from slamming into each other until they are all one great big ball of energy once again. They cannot separate their elements nor give themselves atomic numbers. They cannot prevent themselves from exploding repeatedly. They cannot arrange themselves in order.
But we know when the Universe began.
Why did it expand? Why did it not explode? Why did it not contract? Why did it not liquify? Why did it remain in place? Do you actually think it can can control itself?

Must I say it again?
OK !

Matter and energy do not a Universe make. They cannot.......canno.......can........ca......c.......

Understand?


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Wilson

We need an emoticon that hangs itself to properly convey the frustration I'm feeling.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Why must matter and energy be assisted? There are universal laws that are in effect even without God's help. Unless you're working under the assumption that God is involved with every minute little detail of the world. When you pick up your car keys in the morning, it isn't actually you picking them up - it's God. When you eat your lunch, God is taking the food and moving your hands, the food, and your digestive tract. And not only for you - for 6.5 billion people.

I'd like to think that a God who could create the Universe would be intelligent enough for it to run itself. Then again, that might explain why there are so many wars - God is too busy helping everyone breathe and eat to worry about the little things like preventing wars.

It must have been easy in the beginning, maybe he just didn't realize that controlling 6.5 billion people would be much more difficult than controlling a few hundred thousand.

Wait, wouldn't that mean god is behind all wars, murders, rapes, kidnappings, suicides, executions, thefts, ect...?

 

[Commoner]

We need an emoticon that hangs itself to properly convey the frustration I'm feeling.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Sweet.

 

[outhouse]

there are a few people on this website that are NOT debatable due to their brainwashed closed minds. They have lost the ability to use reason and reality to learn.

backwards primitive thinking with no education is a horrible way to go through life

 

[PolyHedral]

Universal laws with no lawmaker?
No law can make itself, establish itself, enforce itself.

There is nothing to enforce, because the "breaking" the rules is unthinkable. Also, there is no beginning to the universe, as far as the Big Bang predicts. There is a first moment of the universe, but certain structures "already" exist at that point, such as the mass-energy content and the laws of physics.

 

[McBell]

in other words
one is convinced by evidence or presumption...?

If something convinces some one of something, then it is evidence for that some one.
It matters not what anyone else thinks about that something, it is still evidence for that someone.


Now I understand that some people have a much lower standard for their evidence than others.
However, all that means is that one persons evidence is another persons huge steaming pile of bull ****.

 

[McBell]

So why and how is your god the exception?

Because being the exception is what makes him god.
Of course, it does absolutely nothing to prove he exists, but it does give millions and millions of people all manner of warm fuzzies.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

Because being the exception is what makes him god.
Of course, it does absolutely nothing to prove he exists, but it does give millions and millions of people all manner of warm fuzzies.

I get warm hardies.

 

[wilsoncole]

Why not? I think maybe you confuse human laws with natural laws. Natural laws by their very nature establish and enforce themselves.

OK.
Mindless laws, you say.
For what reason?
When and how did these mindless natural laws begin?
Is there purpose behind those laws?

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Wilson

 

[PolyHedral]

Is there purpose behind those laws?

No. They are completely arbitrary.

 

[wilsoncole]

They are both Scientific Theories.

There is ample evidence for the Big Bang.
"The theory is the most comprehensive and accurate explanation supported by scientific evidence and observations."

OTOH, "the physics of the Planck epoch are unclear, and the exact manner in which the fundamental forces were unified, and how they came to be separate entities, is still poorly understood." (Wikipedia)

So you are seeking to apply forces that you do not understand.

And cause/effect are only applicable when interacting with spacetime.

You said that. Doesn't change anything.

The Singularity does not exist in spacetime. Spacetime exists within the Singularity (Universe).

The Gravitational Singularity does not exist anywhere in the known universe, Pal. That ended with the Big Bang.

Thus rendering your nothing from nothing/something from something argument meaningless.

What is meaningless is your words here.
You still have nothing coming from nothing.
No one can demonstrate anything that disproves that concept.
BTW: Whatever happened to your "special pleading" objection?
I sense desperation creeping in.


(Back to your Book of Fallacies)


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Wilson

 

[wilsoncole]

No. They are completely arbitrary.

Arbitrary laws that serve to control people and things in a way that THEY dictate - right?
:no:

WAIT!
You forgot something:
" Mindless laws, you say.
For what reason?
When, where and how did these mindless natural laws begin?"


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Wilson

 

[wilsoncole]

In addition, causation is limited to realms we call "macro." At the atomic and smaller levels it disappears, and even in our larger realms it seems it is largely an illusion with all sorts of philosophical difficulties.

What happens is really what is called the "law of large numbers." Things happen randomly at the atomic level, but probabilities can be determined.

Beings existing at our macro-atomic size scales are composed of so many gazillions of these randomly behaving atomic particles that the probabilities utterly dominate and the randomness seems to disappear.

So, then, the prevailing notion that everything has a cause is really an illusion. Things happen randomly, in accordance with probabilities, but with gazillions of events involved, the chances of a violation of what seems to be causation are vanishingly small.

Opening the vial on the perfume jar "causes" the odor to spread into the air, but what is really happening are random motions of particles leading to a probability setup where only once in eons will the odor particles not go into the air.

All of this empty talk just amounts to a deification of CHANCE!
The concept is not new.
Far too many things that appeal to a rational mind, including incredible complexity, for which chance cannot account.

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Wilson

 

[PolyHedral]

When, where and how did these mindless natural laws begin?

There is no reason for them, and they didn't begin.

 

[wilsoncole]

There is no reason for them, and they didn't begin.

Listen, then talk some more.

1. [youtube]maoGItxwTTA[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maoGItxwTTA
2. [youtube]_g9NXjAZENo[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g9NXjAZENo&feature=related

Your argument is on # 2.

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>(^)<

Wilson

 

[wilsoncole]

There is no reason for them, and they didn't begin.

Mindless laws that had no beginning and exists for not reason?

But they do control people and things according to their dictates - right?
Why do they control you?
Why do they want to control you?
Seems to me they exist to control people and things.



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>(^)<

Wilson