What evidence for God

[Thief]

There is no reason to think so, no.

Lack of reason on your part is not much of a denial.

 

[Thief]

it is a pattern of life and death




so far no one ever has, and no one ever will. Dying is not surviving in any aspect.



that is a unknown factor giving you all the benifit available

And I see nothing here that rebuttals my post.

Apparently you agree with me.

 

[starlite]

Simple, what evidence is there of there being a god, a higher being, or any of the like?

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]From a purely logical stand point doesn't a watch require a watchmaker? Then think of the incredibly vast universe that contains untold billions of galaxies like our Milky Way. Think too of the heavenly bodies that are so reliable in their movements century after century that they have been compared to precision timepieces. Could anyone take all the pieces of a watch, put them in a bag, shake them and have a precision timepiece come out? Surely the infinitely more complex and awesome universe implies the existence of a designer and maker. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Earth is just the right distance from the sun to get the proper amount of light and heat. Once a year it moves around the sun, with just the right angle of tilt, making seasons possible in many parts of the earth. The earth also rotates on its own axis every 24 hours, providing regular periods of light and darkness. It has an atmosphere with just the right mixture of gases so we can breathe and be protected from damaging radiation from space. It also has the vital water and soil needed to grow food. Without all those factors, and others, working together, life would be impossible. Was all of that an accident? Science News says: “It seems as if such particular and precise conditions could hardly have arisen at random.” [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Consider the great number of things that add delight to living. Look at the vast variety of beautifully colored flowers with their pleasant fragrances that we enjoy. Then there is the great variety of foods so delicious to taste. There are forests, mountains, lakes, and beautiful sunsets that enhance our enjoyment of life. In the animal realm, aren't we delighted by the playful antics and lovable nature of puppies, kittens, and other young animals? These were created with loving care for humans to enjoy.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Speaking of living things, consider a few of the amazing things about the living cell. In his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, molecular biologist Michael Denton states: “Even the simplest of all living systems on earth today, bacterial cells, are exceedingly complex objects. Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, . . . each is in effect a veritable microminiaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery . . . far more complicated than any machine built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Regarding the genetic code in each cell, he states: “The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system; it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. . . . Alongside the level of ingenuity and complexity exhibited by the molecular machinery of life, even our most advanced [products] appear clumsy. We feel humbled.” Denton adds: “The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event.” I ask you....wouldn't it require a designer and maker?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This scientist then says: “In terms of complexity, an individual cell is nothing when compared with a system like the mammalian brain. The human brain consists of about ten thousand million nerve cells. Each nerve cell puts out somewhere in the region of between ten thousand and one hundred thousand connecting fibres by which it makes contact with other nerve cells in the brain. Altogether the total number of connections in the human brain approaches . . . a thousand million million.” Denton continues: “Even if only one hundredth of the connections in the brain were specifically organized, this would still represent a system containing a much greater number of specific connections than in the entire communications network on Earth.” He then asks: “Could any sort of purely random process ever have assembled such systems?” [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Science writer Morton Hunt said: “Our active memories hold several billion times more information than a large contemporary research computer.” Thus, brain surgeon Dr. Robert J. White concluded: “I am left with no choice but to acknowledge the existence of a Superior Intellect, responsible for the design and development of the incredible brain-mind relationship—something far beyond man’s capacity to understand. . . . I have to believe all this had an intelligent beginning, that Someone made it happen.” [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Consider this, the unique blood system that transports nutrients and oxygen and protects against infection. Regarding the red blood cells, a main component of this system, the book ABC’s of the Human Body states: “A single drop of blood contains more than 250 million separate blood cells . . . The body contains perhaps 25 trillion of them, enough, if spread out, to cover four tennis courts. . . . Replacements are made, at a rate of 3 million new cells every second.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Regarding white blood cells, another part of the unique blood system, this same source tells us: “While there is only one kind of red cell, white blood cells come in many varieties, each type capable of fighting the body’s battles in a different way. One kind, for instance, destroys dead cells. Other kinds produce antibodies against viruses, detoxify foreign substances, or literally eat up and digest bacteria.” What an amazing and highly organized system, wouldn't you agree? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And what about your eye that is so superbly designed that no camera can duplicate it. Astronomer Robert Jastrow said: “The eye appears to have been designed; no designer of telescopes could have done better.” And the publication Popular Photography relates: “Human eyes see a far greater range of detail than film does. They see in three dimensions, at a tremendously wide angle, without distortion, in continuous motion . . . Comparing the camera to the human eye isn’t a fair analogy. The human eye is more like an incredibly advanced supercomputer with artificial intelligence, information-processing abilities, speeds, and modes of operation that are far beyond any man-made device, computer or camera.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And, the way that all the intricate body organs cooperate without our conscious effort is something else to reflect upon. For example, we put many different types of food and drink into our stomachs, yet the body processes them and produces energy. Try putting such a variety of things into the gas tank of an automobile and see how far it goes. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Could all of this be merely the workings of chance? I don't think so.... This is the kind of evidence that convinces me that there is a God.[/FONT]

 

[RitalinO.D.]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]From a purely logical stand point doesn't a watch require a watchmaker? Then think of the incredibly vast universe that contains untold billions of galaxies like our Milky Way. Think too of the heavenly bodies that are so reliable in their movements century after century that they have been compared to precision timepieces. Could anyone take all the pieces of a watch, put them in a bag, shake them and have a precision timepiece come out? Surely the infinitely more complex and awesome universe implies the existence of a designer and maker. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Earth is just the right distance from the sun to get the proper amount of light and heat. Once a year it moves around the sun, with just the right angle of tilt, making seasons possible in many parts of the earth. The earth also rotates on its own axis every 24 hours, providing regular periods of light and darkness. It has an atmosphere with just the right mixture of gases so we can breathe and be protected from damaging radiation from space. It also has the vital water and soil needed to grow food. Without all those factors, and others, working together, life would be impossible. Was all of that an accident? Science News says: “It seems as if such particular and precise conditions could hardly have arisen at random.” [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Consider the great number of things that add delight to living. Look at the vast variety of beautifully colored flowers with their pleasant fragrances that we enjoy. Then there is the great variety of foods so delicious to taste. There are forests, mountains, lakes, and beautiful sunsets that enhance our enjoyment of life. In the animal realm, aren't we delighted by the playful antics and lovable nature of puppies, kittens, and other young animals? These were created with loving care for humans to enjoy.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Speaking of living things, consider a few of the amazing things about the living cell. In his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, molecular biologist Michael Denton states: “Even the simplest of all living systems on earth today, bacterial cells, are exceedingly complex objects. Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, . . . each is in effect a veritable microminiaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery . . . far more complicated than any machine built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Regarding the genetic code in each cell, he states: “The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system; it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousand millionths of a gram. . . . Alongside the level of ingenuity and complexity exhibited by the molecular machinery of life, even our most advanced [products] appear clumsy. We feel humbled.” Denton adds: “The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event.” I ask you....wouldn't it require a designer and maker?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This scientist then says: “In terms of complexity, an individual cell is nothing when compared with a system like the mammalian brain. The human brain consists of about ten thousand million nerve cells. Each nerve cell puts out somewhere in the region of between ten thousand and one hundred thousand connecting fibres by which it makes contact with other nerve cells in the brain. Altogether the total number of connections in the human brain approaches . . . a thousand million million.” Denton continues: “Even if only one hundredth of the connections in the brain were specifically organized, this would still represent a system containing a much greater number of specific connections than in the entire communications network on Earth.” He then asks: “Could any sort of purely random process ever have assembled such systems?” [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Science writer Morton Hunt said: “Our active memories hold several billion times more information than a large contemporary research computer.” Thus, brain surgeon Dr. Robert J. White concluded: “I am left with no choice but to acknowledge the existence of a Superior Intellect, responsible for the design and development of the incredible brain-mind relationship—something far beyond man’s capacity to understand. . . . I have to believe all this had an intelligent beginning, that Someone made it happen.” [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Consider this, the unique blood system that transports nutrients and oxygen and protects against infection. Regarding the red blood cells, a main component of this system, the book ABC’s of the Human Body states: “A single drop of blood contains more than 250 million separate blood cells . . . The body contains perhaps 25 trillion of them, enough, if spread out, to cover four tennis courts. . . . Replacements are made, at a rate of 3 million new cells every second.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Regarding white blood cells, another part of the unique blood system, this same source tells us: “While there is only one kind of red cell, white blood cells come in many varieties, each type capable of fighting the body’s battles in a different way. One kind, for instance, destroys dead cells. Other kinds produce antibodies against viruses, detoxify foreign substances, or literally eat up and digest bacteria.” What an amazing and highly organized system, wouldn't you agree? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And what about your eye that is so superbly designed that no camera can duplicate it. Astronomer Robert Jastrow said: “The eye appears to have been designed; no designer of telescopes could have done better.” And the publication Popular Photography relates: “Human eyes see a far greater range of detail than film does. They see in three dimensions, at a tremendously wide angle, without distortion, in continuous motion . . . Comparing the camera to the human eye isn’t a fair analogy. The human eye is more like an incredibly advanced supercomputer with artificial intelligence, information-processing abilities, speeds, and modes of operation that are far beyond any man-made device, computer or camera.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And, the way that all the intricate body organs cooperate without our conscious effort is something else to reflect upon. For example, we put many different types of food and drink into our stomachs, yet the body processes them and produces energy. Try putting such a variety of things into the gas tank of an automobile and see how far it goes. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Could all of this be merely the workings of chance? I don't think so.... This is the kind of evidence that convinces me that there is a God.[/FONT]

Explain to me then how the Influenza virus every couple of years changes itself and becomes immune to current vaccinations. Does God do this on purpose just to be sure enough people die every year from the flu?

Explain why God created creatures that spend their entire lives in the darkness, gave them eyes, or even partially formed eyes, that they will never use?

 

[outhouse]

Michael Denton

is a known quack as his work has been proven to fail

Critique of Michael Denton's "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis"


I will argue in this paper that both of Denton's attempts to make an adequate challenge to evolutionary biology fail - neither does Denton manage to undermine the evidence for evolution, nor does he succeed in demonstrating that macroevolutionary mechanisms are inherently implausible.

Evolutionary pattern and process stands vindicated from Denton's assault. It does not win out by default, being implausible but socially established and lacking a superior alternative - rather, it is a plausible process with no contenders, and is backed up strongly by empirical evidence. There is debate within evolutionist circles about systematics, tempo, and the roles of genetic drift and preadaptation, and still plenty of work to be done fleshing out stories about the development of certain structures, but none of this in any way puts macroevolution and the pattern of non-teleological common descent in a crisis situation. Rather, they are indicators that evolutionary biology is still a field which offers work to be done, just like any other field.

 

[outhouse]

And I see nothing here that rebuttals my post

do you think your mind is closed and you cannot see the correct answer in front of you???

i never stated i agree with you

 

[Wombat]

Oh we should start a new thread on that one.

No doubt...to cherry pick the clear and obvious ironic sarcasam and run with that to the exclusion of all else would serve well to bold and underline my point....not that it needs it.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

No doubt...to cherry pick the clear and obvious ironic sarcasam and run with that to the exclusion of all else would serve well to bold and underline my point....not that it needs it.

So you are saying that debating YEC is a worthy way to spend time?

 

[Wombat]

I dont find that to be a true statement.

And how many evidence examples of Atheist respondents expressing
"want, demand, expectation of empirical evidence" would be required for you to be persuaded the statement is true? Or what percentage of Atheists responding in such a manner would substantiate the statement?

Seriously.

what evidence I have seen, points to deitys being created by man the same way man has always created deitys.
can you deny that is not a pattern.???

Would you care to explore the above propisition and proposed "pattern"?

I'm prepared to devote several posts over the next week or so to doing so....you?

My first objective would be to establish some (broad) mutual agreement on what is random/chance and what degree of 'pattern' would prompt suspicion.

Imagine you are a Track Steward at a racecourse. A ten race steplechase event. A dozen+ horses in the first race. All horses fall bar one that completes the course.
On a scale of zero to ten, zero representing- probable/not suspicious...ten being improbable/highly suspicious...how would you rate your response to all horses bar one falling and failing to complete?

 

[starlite]

Explain to me then how the Influenza virus every couple of years changes itself and becomes immune to current vaccinations. Does God do this on purpose just to be sure enough people die every year from the flu?

Explain why God created creatures that spend their entire lives in the darkness, gave them eyes, or even partially formed eyes, that they will never use?

First of all it is man who has developed and misused the antibiotics designed to treat such viruses. Misuse has caused multi-drug resistant bacteria. I'm not sure what you are referring to in your second question.

 

[Orias]

First of all it is man who has developed and misused the antibiotics designed to treat such viruses. Misuse has caused multi-drug resistant bacteria. I'm not sure what you are referring to in your second question.

You would be so informed to know that use of antibiotics has nothing to do with the treament of such viruses. For they literally change without notion. We only have so much information to create antibiotics that conform to treatment.

What your inferring is that we change the bactiera, and that's not the case at all. Viruses develope out of desctruction not our misuse of antibiotics. They literally adopt to fight any Opposition, much like humans. I mean essentialy, the human immune system and our bodies in general are made of bacteria.

To clarify his second question, he was wondering why an "all good "God"" would give an organism a part if it is completely useless for it's development.

 

[outhouse]

you took off a big bite, lets discuss this a step at a time.

And how many evidence examples of Atheist respondents expressing
"want, demand, expectation of empirical evidence" would be required for you to be persuaded the statement is true?

Science deals with empirical evidence. Atheist or the lack of belief of a deity will take any evidence presented as we are all different people with a different take on the whole story. Some are strong and some are weak, you how ever seem to want to stereotype atheist into one basket. Many atheist follow the scientific method but its not exclusive to a lack of belief. I would ask that you dont stereotype atheist.

what evidence I have seen, points to deitys being created by man the same way man has always created deitys.
can you deny that is not a pattern.???

would you care to answer the question instead of asking more questions that dodge the topic???


Now ill play your game

Would you care to explore the above propisition and proposed "pattern"?

sure

I'm prepared to devote several posts over the next week or so to doing so....you?

do as you wish, doesnt mean my participation is guaranteed

My first objective would be to establish some (broad) mutual agreement on what is random/chance and what degree of 'pattern' would prompt suspicion.

as I believe you stereotyped atheist, I think your over analyzing this whole situation.


Now this thread is about "what evidence for god" so far I have not seen a shred. Empirical you can throw out the window as it is not required for my belief.

do you have or would you like to present "any" evidence??

 

[outhouse]

First of all it is man who has developed and misused the antibiotics designed to treat such viruses. Misuse has caused multi-drug resistant bacteria. I'm not sure what you are referring to in your second question.

first of all

antibiotics only treat the damage cause by a virus and do little to stop a virus.

gram positive and gram negative antibiotics each can help combat specific types of damage [infections]. Antibiotics kill bad bacteria its not a cure all for a virus at all. most antibiotics do little to nothing to slow a virus.

NOW bacteria does evolve as do virus and in general its not from misuse but just use and they evolve right around said drug.

malaria is a subject you should do a quick search on as its killed more people then all wars combined. Not good stuff there for the poverty stricken and undeveloped country's who cant keep up with disease control

 

[Wombat]

Atheist or the lack of belief of a deity will take any evidence presented

Clearly not always so...you have the offer on the table to establish the broad parameters of what events constitute probable/chance and what events would be deemed improbable/suspicious.
This question is put with a view to establishing the veracity of “evidence (to be) presented.
If you cannot/will not respond to a simple scenario question seeking to establish (even broadly) the parameters of probability...how can it be said you will take or consider “any evidence presented”?

I would ask that you dont stereotype atheist.

I didn’t. I was both careful and precise in my language.
You challenged the veracity of my statement-
“I dont find that to be a true statement”
I asked “how many evidence examples of Atheist respondents” would you require to substantiate the assertion. “Atheist respondents” specifies those Atheist ‘responding’ here to the issue at hand and cannot be misconstrued as “stereotyping atheist”.
It is noted that you declined the invitation to see evidence presented and the statement substantiated...that is prudent.
Do two such declined invitations set a “pattern”?

Quote:
what evidence I have seen, points to deitys being created by man the same way man has always created deitys.
can you deny that is not a pattern.???

would you care to answer the question instead of asking more questions that dodge the topic???

No attempt whatsoever was made to “dodge the topic” or avoid the question. I asked/offered-
“Would you care to explore the above proposition and proposed "pattern"?”

If what you seek is an explicit-“Yes, I can see a pattern of “deitys being created by man”...I can also see a pattern of Deity that is highly improbable to have been created by man”...then there you have it.
Now you have a direct and explicit statement of ‘opinion’ in regard your question...and I am compelled to ask- Of what value is any such opinion devoid of the examination of what constitutes “pattern” in random/chance events and what are the broad parameters of ‘probability’?

Now ill play your game

No. You won’t. I have no “game” is in play. You have made statements/asked questions...I have answered directly and explicitly. If you believe any question remains unanswered then highlight it and I will respond.
But having declared you will “play” you decline to take a turn at answering my question.
And my question seeks to answer the last of yours-

“do you have or would you like to present "any" evidence??”

Yes, the evidence logically follows on from the foundation established in 3 simple questions this being the first-
A ten race steeplechase event. A dozen+ horses in the first race. All horses fall bar one that completes the course.
On a scale of zero to ten, zero representing- probable/not suspicious...ten being improbable/highly suspicious...how would you rate your response to all horses bar one falling and failing to complete?

 

[Wombat]

So you are saying that debating YEC is a worthy way to spend time?

No. I'm saying my response to an Atheist raising YEC was "clear and obvious ironic sarcasam"= i.e. I would go on describing "people rode dinosoars" because I had never done so in the first place=:sarcastic

The ironic sarcasam was prompted by the clear pattern of Athiest respondents ignoring/avoiding pertinant points/question- introducing straw man concepts/principles such as YEC...and expecting a response/defence/rebuttle of a position never held or expressed.

It is a blatant evasive strategy, your doing it well...but...is it "a worthy way to spend time?"

 

[RitalinO.D.]

No. I'm saying my response to an Atheist raising YEC was "clear and obvious ironic sarcasam"= i.e. I would go on describing "people rode dinosoars" because I had never done so in the first place=:sarcastic

The ironic sarcasam was prompted by the clear pattern of Athiest respondents ignoring/avoiding pertinant points/question- introducing straw man concepts/principles such as YEC...and expecting a response/defence/rebuttle of a position never held or expressed.

It is a blatant evasive strategy, your doing it well...but...is it "a worthy way to spend time?"

Which atheist introduced YEC into this discussion? The only mention of it I remember was the comment you made, that I quoted. I never introduce such a topic, as YEC is purely ridiculous. I also have not presented any other "strawmen". I merely said that as an Atheist, I require more than presumptions and hearsay as an argument for creationism. I see no strawmen there.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

First of all it is man who has developed and misused the antibiotics designed to treat such viruses.

So, you are saying that when scientists developed vaccines to erradicate small pox, nearly eradicate TB and polio, they were misusing these vaccines? I'm confused by your statement.

You should probably research some into viral evolution, especially influenza, and you will understand what I was asking.

I'm not sure what you are referring to in your second question.

Blind animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

One theory is that because of its dark habitat, the fish embryo saves energy it would normally use to develop eyes to develop other body parts, and this developmental choice would eventually dominate the population. This is called economical adaptation. However, studies have shown that blind cave fish embryos begin to grow eyes during development but then something actively stops this process and flesh grows over the partially grown eyes.

Animals with No Eyes: Cave Adaptation | Scienceray
Quote:

Grotto Salamanders or ‘Ghost Lizards’ are white or pale pink with light orange stripes on their tails and feet. These creatures are born with both gills and eyes. But as they become adults, three things happen. First, they grow smaller, not bigger. Second, their eyes stop working and are slowly sucked back into their bodies. Third, their gills close up and they begin to breathe through their skin.

That is what I was referring to. Just curious what your explanation is.

 

[tumbleweed41]

“Hearsay is hardly evidence of God. And it is surely not objective empirical evidence.”#737

No claim was made that “Hearsay” constituted evidence of God, no reference to “objective empirical evidence” prior to this point.

Really?

No. At various discreet and sequential points in history people have laid claim to having an experience of God, claiming God spoke/revealed a message to them.

That, my friend, is hearsay.

“Sleight of hand? No, simply clarification.” #751 Tumbleweed41

No. You don’t get to change the statement I was responding to and call that “clarification” especially when you did not make the original statement.

Objective empirical evidence was being discussed long before you entered this thread with your subjective speculations on God.

But if you feel you need to lower the standards of evidence in order to justify a faith, go right ahead.
Personally, I feel that doing so shows a weakness of faith.

 

[starlite]

first of all

antibiotics only treat the damage cause by a virus and do little to stop a virus.

gram positive and gram negative antibiotics each can help combat specific types of damage [infections]. Antibiotics kill bad bacteria its not a cure all for a virus at all. most antibiotics do little to nothing to slow a virus.

NOW bacteria does evolve as do virus and in general its not from misuse but just use and they evolve right around said drug.

malaria is a subject you should do a quick search on as its killed more people then all wars combined. Not good stuff there for the poverty stricken and undeveloped country's who cant keep up with disease control

My mistake...speaking from my own experience of taking antibiotics since 1999 for a multi-drug resistant bacteria in my lungs. You're correct in saying antibiotics don't affect viruses. In my case....I've been thru most available antibiotics and down to one that the bacteria shows a sensitivity to. It's being saved for a dire flare up.

 

[PolyHedral]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]From a purely logical stand point doesn't a watch require a watchmaker? Then think of the incredibly vast universe that contains untold billions of galaxies like our Milky Way. Think too of the heavenly bodies that are so reliable in their movements century after century that they have been compared to precision timepieces. Could anyone take all the pieces of a watch, put them in a bag, shake them and have a precision timepiece come out? [/FONT]

Ooh, I like people asking this question, because the answer is in fact, YES!

[youtube]mcAq9bmCeR0[/youtube]