Agnostic75
Well-Known Member
I look forward to reading comments from readers.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What evidence is there that the Koran is the word of God?
- Thread starter Agnostic75
- Start date
LaaIlahaIllAllah
Member
Three Lines that Changed the World: The Inimitability of the Shortest Chapter in the Quran
Here are some parts from around the beginning:
Verily We have given to you the abundance
So pray to your Lord and sacrifice
Indeed your enemy is the one who is cut off
Chapter al-Kawthar (The Abundance) is the smallest chapter in the Quran consisting of only three lines. From a linguistic, literary, theological, rational and ideological point of view this chapter has the utmost significance. Being the smallest chapter in the Quran it is often cited by those who are involved in some form of polemic. This is due to the famous challenge of the Quran. The Quran states:
If you (mankind) are in doubt concerning what We revealed to Our servant, than bring a chapter like it . Quran 2:23
...
The Quran was revealed approximately 1400 years ago and for this amount of time the challenge has remained. This however does not mean that no one has attempted to match the literary and linguistic style/feature/nature of the text. Throughout the centuries thinkers, poets, theologians and literary critics have attempted to challenge the Quran. Some of these challengers include Musaylamah, Ibn Al-Mukaffa, Abul-Ala Al-Marri, Yahya b. Al-Hakam al-Ghazal, Sayyid Ali Muhammad, Ibn al-Rawandi, Bassar bin Burd, Sahib Ibn Abbad, Abul Atahiya and the contemporary Christian Missionaries who developed the True Furqan.
Without going into an analysis of why Muslim and non-Muslim scholars have agreed that those who have attempted to challenge the Quran have failed, the summary below should suffice:
Even though the challengers have had the same set of tools, which are the 29 letters, finite grammatical rules and the blue print of the challenge which is the Quran itself; they have failed to:
1. Replicate the Qurans literary form
2. Match the unique linguistic genre of the Quran
3. Select and arrange words like that of the Quran.
4. Select and arrange particles like that of the Quran.
5. Match the Qurans phonetic superiority.
6. Equal the frequency of rhetorical devices
7. Match the level of informativity
8. Equal the Qurans conciseness and flexibility
For example if we take Musaylamahs attempt to challenge the Quran,
...
In light of the above what makes the Quran, or in this case, what makes the shortest chapter in the Quran inimitable? To start, below is a summary of chapter al-Kawthars literary and linguistic features: ...
His conclusion:
This chapter is truly unique and inimitable.
This chapter has less than 15 words yet briefly analysing this chapter more than 15 rhetorical devices and related features have been found. These features are not just mediocre attempts to please and persuade, rather they are sublime features that if removed or altered will distort the impact and communicative effect of the text.
Not one feature or any words can be changed or improved upon.
It doesnt stop there. In addition to the above this chapter is structured within its own literary form and linguistic genre.
How can a human being create a unique literary form and linguistic genre, select the most apt words placed in the most perfect arrangement, produce a unique rhythm and semantically orientated sounds, provide factual prophetic information in concise eloquent expression with an abundance of rhetorical devices, in less than 15 words?
It was no wonder that those best placed to challenge the Quran failed.
This article intends to provoke further questions and sufficiently stimulate the reader to research further, particularly the question of authorship of the Quran. At the heart of that question lies only a limited set of possible answers. The Quran can only have come from an Arab, a non-Arab, the Prophet if you believe he had a mastery of Arabic better than the Arabs of his time or, as Muslims suggest, the Creator, which only counts as a possible source if you believe in its existence (that is of course a subject unto itself but an important pre-requisite).
From the above evidence the Quran is acknowledged to be written with the utmost beauty and purity of Language. It is incontestably the standard of the Arabic tongue, inimitable by any human pen, and because it still exists today, it insists on as a permanent miracle sufficient to convince the world of its divine origin. If the Quran was written by Muhammad, why were not Arab scholars and linguists able to rival the Quran?
--------------------------
Another link from same site and basically same category as other one:
The Qurans Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle
I think it includes what the first one does and much more.
One section is:
Why is the Quran a Miracle?
What makes the Quran a miracle, is that it is impossible for a human being to compose something like it, as it lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic language. The productive capacity of nature, concerning the Arabic language, is that any grammatically sound expression of the Arabic language will always fall with-in the known Arabic literary forms of prose and poetry. All of the possible combinations of Arabic words, letters and grammatical rules have been exhausted and yet its literary form has not been matched linguistically. The Arabs, who were known to have been Arabic linguists par excellence, failed to successfully challenge the Quran. Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot, who was a notable British Orientalist and translator, states:
and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.[11]
The implication of this is that there is no link between the Quran and the Arabic language; however this seems impossible because the Quran is made up of the Arabic language. On the other hand, every combination of Arabic words and letters have been used to try and imitate the Quran. Therefore, this leaves only one conclusion; a Divine explanation is the only coherent explanation for this impossible Arabic literary form the Quran. Hence, it logically follows that if the Quran is a literary event that lies outside the productive capacity of the Arabic language, i.e. an impossibility, then by definition, it is a miracle.
----
Last part of this next section:
The Quran is impossible to match linguistically
... Taha Husayn, a prominent Egyptian litterateur, in a public lecture summarised how the Quran achieves its own unique form:
But you know that the Quran is not prose and that it is not verse either. It is rather Quran, and it cannot be called by any other name but this. It is not verse, and that is clear; for it does not bind itself to the bonds of verse. And it is not prose, for it is bound by bonds peculiar to itself, not found elsewhere; some of the binds are related to the endings of its verses, and some to that musical sound which is all its own.
It is therefore neither verse nor prose, but it is a Book whose verses have been perfected and expounded, from One Who is Wise, All-Aware. We cannot therefore say it is prose, and its text itself is not verse. It has been one of a kind, and nothing like it has ever preceded or followed it. [13]
Hence, the Quran is truly a unique expression of the Arabic language. Nothing has come before or after it that can match its literary form and style. This next section will discuss how the Quran compares to Arabic poetry and prose.
no-body
Well-Known Member
The usual reason given is that Mohammed was an illiterate unlearned man who was unlikely to have invented the highly poetic and divine passages in the Koran.
Personally I disagree if one studies instances of psychic mediums they are usually unlearned people and for this very reason end up fooling the very learned people that come to check them out. Mohammed having discussed religion, philosophy and poetry while travelling as a young merchant it seems more likely this is the inspiration for the koran than a direct connection to God.
If you want a reason for the OP though I would say it is the word of God because all texts are the word of God.
Personally I disagree if one studies instances of psychic mediums they are usually unlearned people and for this very reason end up fooling the very learned people that come to check them out. Mohammed having discussed religion, philosophy and poetry while travelling as a young merchant it seems more likely this is the inspiration for the koran than a direct connection to God.
If you want a reason for the OP though I would say it is the word of God because all texts are the word of God.
Isn't the Koran dictated by Allah and not God?
no-body
Well-Known Member
Allah is the arabic word for God? Tomato, tomahto.
Vultar
Active Member
I thought he was visited by the spirit Gabriel....
_________________________
Disclaimer: I don't expect anyone to believe what I write.... I'm just a messenger....
Muhammed (pbuh) has travelled only twice, one time he was 12 years old when he was with his uncle and he didn’t complete the journey with them but he returned while the convoy was still on their way and the other was when he was 25 years and he returned immediately after finishing his trade . As for mohammed being a merchant for some time he was sending people and he didn’t go by himself except for this time.
Last edited:
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
Who says its a word of GOD, i have read otherwise.
The Quran Verses 58:19-21(known as Satanic Verses) are attributed to Satan!
Sahih Bukhari Book 024, Number 5279: Abu Huraira reported Allahs Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The bell is the musical instrument of the Satan.
Sahih Bukhari Book 1, Number 2: Narrated Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allahs Apostle O Allahs Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you? Allahs Apostle replied, Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes off after I have grasped what is inspired
And most important to note that Allah says, I start with name of Allah!
This means that the author of Quran is someone other than Allah.
if Quran was direct message of Allah spoken to Muhammad, there is no reason for Allah to say that, I start with name of Allah!.
That is my POV
I fail to see any literary merit or poetry in this
Verily We have given to you the abundance
So pray to your Lord and sacrifice
Indeed your enemy is the one who is cut off
The first line is either meaningless or you can make it mean absolutely anything, which makes it meaningless.
The second line is treating the reader like an idiot. I've just given you a meaningless line so pray to me.
The early polar expeditions were cut off, who are the enemy, why did you create enemies?
The passage is nonsensical.
Verily We have given to you the abundance
So pray to your Lord and sacrifice
Indeed your enemy is the one who is cut off
The first line is either meaningless or you can make it mean absolutely anything, which makes it meaningless.
The second line is treating the reader like an idiot. I've just given you a meaningless line so pray to me.
The early polar expeditions were cut off, who are the enemy, why did you create enemies?
The passage is nonsensical.
LaaIlahaIllAllah
Member
You have been misinformed, my friend.
The alleged "Satanic Verses" are not found in the Quran but are claimed to be in the Quran before, in between the verses 53:19-21 and not the verses 58:19-21 as you have written.
Secondly, this comes from a fabricated hadeeth. It was fabricated by the pagans of Mekkah.
It is not even a "weak" hadeeth but "fabricated".
Thirdly, if we place those so called former verses in the Quran where they allege they were, it makes no sense at all. It would say that 3 goddesses are exalted intercessors (which is what the fake hadeeth says) and then immediately the next verses call these pagan goddesses false and nothing but names that the pagans' forefathers have come up with! Here it is:
{They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance.}
[ Surat An-Najm/53, v. 23 ]
If any logical, unbiased person read this, he/she would realize that such a claim is ridiculous!
Furthermore, the fabricated hadeeth speaks of 3 events as they had all happened in a matter of minutes, but when we dig a little deeper we find that these events had YEARS in between them and have nothing to do with each other.
This whole accusation is quite foolish and ridiculous but it is easy to get sucked up into these types of things when one is biased and does not care to take a look at both sides of the story.
First, the hadeeth you wrote there to be from Sahih Bukhari Book 024 #5279 is actually from Sahih Muslim but all other info is same.
Second, it is talking about a musical instrument - a bell. This is there because musical instruments are haraam in Islam, in this hadeeth one musical instrument is specifically mentioned.
Third, the hadeeth about revelation said sometimes it is like the ringing of a bell. The former hadeeth would only apply if there was an actual musical instrument there, namely a bell, and the prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was somehow getting revelation from someone who was ringing a bell (nauthubillah)... These two are totally different. One is speaking about the playing of an actual instrument while other is speaking about something sounding like a bell but the instrument was never played in the first place.
Fourth, if you are going to start believing the hadeeth, I don't see why you wouldn't believe the Quran which says that Allah (Azza wa Jal) does not let the devils interfere with the delivering of the revelation. Also, you would believe, as those who follow Sunnah and Quran believe, that the prophets are infallible in delivering the revelation to the people and this is more proof that these two ahadeeth do not go together and this connection which was made is false.
I do not know Arabic that well but I'm pretty sure it does not start with "I start with the name of Allah", but with "in the name of Allah".
Also, the only chapter that is is actually counted as a verse is Surat Al-Fatihah and that is especially for us when we pray because our prayer is invalid without reciting this chapter.
I don't think that it is officially counted as a verse in the other chapters but it is recommended to recite it before reciting the other chapters - except for Surat At-Tauba/9.
LaaIlahaIllAllah
Member
Just this one statement shows me you have not even read much of the article...Second, produce a chapter like it if ye are truthful. And i will convert to any religion you choose.
Third, read the rest of the article ...
LaaIlahaIllAllah
Member
Lol.... Nice one but I think you should read the article now...........
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
So are you sure that it never was in the koran, or has it been removed?
Which Hadith is this are you talking of?
Is this still in the Koran?
AN-NAJM (THE STAR)
053.019
YUSUFALI: Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza,
PICKTHAL: Have ye thought upon Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza
SHAKIR: Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza,
053.020
YUSUFALI: And another, the third (goddess), Manat?
PICKTHAL: And Manat, the third, the other?
SHAKIR: And Manat, the third, the last?
053.021
YUSUFALI: What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?
PICKTHAL: Are yours the males and His the females?
SHAKIR: What! for you the males and for Him the females!
053.022
YUSUFALI: Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!
PICKTHAL: That indeed were an unfair division!
SHAKIR: This indeed is an unjust division!
053.023
YUSUFALI: These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!
PICKTHAL: They are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers, for which Allah hath revealed no warrant. They follow but a guess and that which (they) themselves desire. And now the guidance from their Lord hath come unto them.
SHAKIR: They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.
I think Muslims need to start looking at more fabrications in the Hadiths. Which one was fabricated?
Again, Hadiths contradict the Koran.
Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2:
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).
This is what the Hadith says, the bell established as being the instrument of Satan as said by Muhammad himself, the bell makes a sound, that sound was these revelations to muhammad.
i dont see where there is confusion here, the bell is satans instrument and Muhammad heard the revelations like a bell. its clear enough.
Well the question still remains, Why would Allah say "In the name of Allah"?
LaaIlahaIllAllah
Member
It was never in the Quran.
Not sure about the reference but I am talking about the fabricated one from which this so called "Satanic Verses" story originated from
Yes, these are verses refuting the pagans which beleieved in 360 idols but also beleieved in Allah as a Supreme Being and Creator of the universe. And mostly did not worship Him but primarily their other false gods that they have created with their own hands and minds. They attributed these 3 false goddesses as daughters to Allah, as well angels and jinn, etc as the Quran mentions in other verses. As we can see here Allah is clearly tellin them that these goddesses that they attribute to Him as daughters do not even exist and they are just names made up by them and their fathers.
The satanic verses story and people who believe it, claim that there were some verses revealed by the devil (authubillah) that praised these goddesses in between verses 20 and 21 And that at the end of this chapter, the pagans prostrated along with the Muslims when Allah commanded them to do so (this part is true), but the fabricated hadeeth says the pagans did so b/c their gods were praised, Authubillah.
The real story is recorded in Sahih Bukhari. What really happened is the prophet (peace be upon him) was getting revelation from Allah of this chapter and the prophet (peace be upon him) was reciting it and at the end of the chapter, after refuting their false beliefs, Allah commands them to prostrate to Him and everyone there does, including the pagans since they were overcome by the Words of Allah, even though He destroyed their beliefs.
My thoughts are that the reason behind fabricating it is to hide the shame and disgrace that they have done to their religion.
It has been checked out by many scholars and the chain of narration and everything about it is fabricated and so ridiculous.
I forgot to mention that it says some events happened in that time of reciting to the pagans but these incidents that they mentioned happened in a few minutes are actually separated by a number of years...
Ok don't really understand what you're tryna say here but the fabricated one I am speaking about is the one where the "Satanic Verses" story came from.
Yes, it is clear that one is speaking about the prohibition of use of the music instrument: bell. Another is speaking about revelation being received which sometimes sounds like a bell but in fact, there is no actual bell involved - this is what I was tryin to say and that is why there is no valid connection.
Again, first one - use of the bell, making noise with it.
Second - no use of the bell at all, nobody is using the instrument anywhere near there, in any way, shape, or form. An event occurred which sounds similar to a bell yet no actual bell used.
Dunno, why not? Possibly because Allah is the One Who revealed this to us and/or specifically for the Muslim prayer so that we start it "in the name of Allah".
And Allah (Subhana wa Ta'ala) knows best.
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
So the Hadiths that say of Satanic verses in 53:19-21. Can you please try and provide which hadith this was.
Which other Hadiths are fabricated?
Book 024, Number 5277:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Angels do not accompany the travellers who have with them a dog and a bell.
Sahih Muslim Book 024 #5279, Abu Huraira reported Allahs Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The bell is the musical instrument of the Satan.
Sahih Bukhari Book 1, Number 2:
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).
This is what the Hadith says, the bell established as being the instrument of Satan as said by Muhammad himself, the bell makes a sound, that sound was these revelations to muhammad.
Then we have a fabricated Hadith, which says there is satanic verses.
This all ties in with the above hadiths, why was it considered a fabrication. If there are two hadiths alluding to Muhammad hearing bells and saying that bells are Satan instruments.
It is quite simple.
It just seems odd Allah starts in the name of Allah, its as if someone else is saying this.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
He was illiterate, but he wasn't stupid. Anyone who thinks that by being illiterate he was dumb needs a check up inside out.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
Nothing you'd accept. But I have to ask, how honest are you with your question?