What Explains U.S. Mass Shootings?

[esmith]

It is hard to discuss why no action, or even discussion of action, has happened without generalities.

Guess I didn't exactly word what I meant. Should have said:
Would be open for discussions that when a point was made that what is purposed include why you think it is necessary, what it would accomplish, and how would you implement it. In other words not a generalization like " X firearms should be band because they are bad" or "firearms cause X number of deaths each year".

 

[Revoltingest]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

And the worst part is that you aren't even giving up your liberty for actual safety; only the illusion of safety.

Note that giving up the right to own guns is also a loss of liberty.
I'd rather cope with the occasional metal detector.
Besides, it's not like they'd go away if guns were totally banned.

 

[Underhill]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

And the worst part is that you aren't even giving up your liberty for actual safety; only the illusion of safety.

I've always thought that was a particularly daft statement or at least one used out of context way to often. How much good is liberty without safety?

He was talking about American freedom from a foreign power, not the minutia of gun rights. Giving up your AK isn't making you less safe. Saying someone has to use a shotgun to protect their family instead of an arsenal of automatic weapons simply means they have less toys to play with. Requiring hand gun permits and rigorous background checks isn't taking away anything.

Because that is really what we are talking about here. Nobody in their right mind thinks we will ban guns altogether anytime soon even if they think we should.

As for the illusion of safety, that is a defeatist statement which stands in the face of reason. Yes, nothing will make us 100% safe. But the notion that we can do nothing to improve the situation is absurd.

 

[esmith]

I've always thought that was a particularly daft statement or at least one used out of context way to often. How much good is liberty without safety?

He was talking about American freedom from a foreign power, not the minutia of gun rights. Giving up your AK isn't making you less safe. Saying someone has to use a shotgun to protect their family instead of an arsenal of automatic weapons simply means they have less toys to play with. Requiring hand gun permits and rigorous background checks isn't taking away anything.

Because that is really what we are talking about here. Nobody in their right mind thinks we will ban guns altogether anytime soon even if they think we should.

As for the illusion of safety, that is a defeatist statement which stands in the face of reason. Yes, nothing will make us 100% safe. But the notion that we can do nothing to improve the situation is absurd.

I read the above statement and then disregarded it due to 5 words which were "an arsenal of automatic weapons" put you, IMO, in the category of the "no nothings". Hence anything you bring forward is, in my opinion, based on your lack of knowledge on the subject just because of those 5 words.

 

[Notanumber]

Give me your gun culture in preference to Islamic culture any day.

 

[oldbadger]

- Restrictions upon self defense.

Alright........ alright.....
If it'll help you get to sleep better we'll train you to fit decent window glazing, bolts, locks chains, alarms, auto-lighting, cameras and/or fake cameras, simple and cheap intruder deterrant signs, some decent fencing................. all stuff which you probably haven't really bothered with because you've got an AR15 or whatever.

And....... and ........ you can keep your ancient blunderbuss, loaded with rock-salt, which saves those nice surgeons from having to spend a weekend working on the vict...... err.... intruder.

 

[oldbadger]

Note that giving up the right to own guns is also a loss of liberty.

Nah! Many years ago, on a thread about cycling, you posted a thread with a whole list of safety must do's and don'ts to ensure that a person going out for a pleasant bike ride would be safe.

You just don't have the liberty........ it's a figment of your imagination.

 

[esmith]

Alright........ alright.....
If it'll help you get to sleep better we'll train you to fit decent window glazing, bolts, locks chains, alarms, auto-lighting, cameras and/or fake cameras, simple and cheap intruder deterrant signs, some decent fencing................. all stuff which you probably haven't really bothered with because you've got an AR15 or whatever.

And....... and ........ you can keep your ancient blunderbuss, loaded with rock-salt, which saves those nice surgeons from having to spend a weekend working on the vict...... err.... intruder.

Not the problem in the house, have 3 killer cats in the garage, 4 killer cats outside, and 3 killer cats inside the house. My issue is in public places.
Oh, don't worry about surgeons working on anyone I shoot. It will be a load of 12ga 00-buck,or 230 grain HP in 45ACP, or 120 grain HP in 9mm and however many it takes with any of them

 

[Revoltingest]

Alright........ alright.....
If it'll help you get to sleep better we'll train you to fit decent window glazing, bolts, locks chains, alarms, auto-lighting, cameras and/or fake cameras, simple and cheap intruder deterrant signs, some decent fencing................. all stuff which you probably haven't really bothered with because you've got an AR15 or whatever.

And....... and ........ you can keep your ancient blunderbuss, loaded with rock-salt, which saves those nice surgeons from having to spend a weekend working on the vict...... err.... intruder.

AR15?
I don't do "mouse guns" (223).
But I sold my M1A Supermatch (308) to a friend (ex Post Office worker).
So no rifles here now.

Btw, the old rock salt load is a bad bad thing to do.

 

[Revoltingest]

Nah! Many years ago, on a thread about cycling, you posted a thread with a whole list of safety must do's and don'ts to ensure that a person going out for a pleasant bike ride would be safe.

You just don't have the liberty........ it's a figment of your imagination.

This is unclear.

 

[oldbadger]

Not the problem in the house, have 3 killer cats in the garage, 4 killer cats outside, and 3 killer cats inside the house.

That reads more like panthers than p*ssycats.
Hope you've got warning signs up.

My issue is in public places.

I know.
US parents obviously dare not allow their children to go out window shopping, or anywhere.
There's no real freedom if your kids are not safe.

Oh, don't worry about surgeons working on anyone I shoot. It will be a load of 12ga 00-buck,or 230 grain HP in 45ACP, or 120 grain HP in 9mm and however many it takes with any of them

A local surgeon has got a bit of a chip-on-shoulder over that. He had to work a whole Sunday on an farm-intruder who met with a farmer that had loaded his security cartridges with rice. Rice is very hard to detect in most scans, and there's masses of it, and it messes up weekends for surgeons, hence his appeal to farmers to load with rock-salt..... there is absolutely nothing to do with rock-salt because it dissipates of its own accord. .... then he can just carry on with his pleasant time off.

 

[oldbadger]

AR15?
I don't do "mouse guns" (223).
But I sold my M1A Supermatch (308) to a friend (ex Post Office worker).
So no rifles here now.

Btw, the old rock salt load is a bad bad thing to do.

Yeah! I know! A previous post of yours on another thread explained that any action which might show a Court that you set out to, intended to, wanted to, shoot a person could affect a decision about your actions. Yeah?

And I thought that was daft as well....... all you guys had to say was that you don't trust your own reloads as you do new cartridges and rounds.

I seem to remember that you are allowed to load your guns with hollow point bullets, is that true? If so the 'I dare not hand load for possible legal comebacks' is just..... colleywobblers. In any event, the purchasing of a handguin and deliberately carrying in public or placing on your bedside table means exactly the same thing. You intended to shoot.....

 

[oldbadger]

This is unclear.

...we were discussing folding bikes when you wrote that piece, a list of 'things to do' for safety before going on a bike ride. A blooming bike trip, FGS.

Of course it's unclear...... it couldn't possibly be crystal clear or you would be wanting to do something about it. But where your kids are not free to go out to a park, or bike riding, or just visiting friends, or where adults cannot go out to enjoy a birthday dinner (etc) without firstly needing to gun-up............. is not freedom.

Domestic Security is not high here, imo, but it's brilliant compared with average US homes that we see on telly. My wife watches an animal-cop telly programme (Texas?) where SPCA ops rescue back-yard guards dogs that have been left for so long on a chain that their fur has grown around it.

We do get the impression that the domestic US in general won't spend a buck on sensible security but fills up the home with friggin' guns and hot air about 'rights to defend'.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Some other developed countries beat us.
List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia
Gun Violence: How The U.S. Compares With Other Countries

It shows that America has by far the worst record for gun violent deaths in the 1st world.

however none of those figures show the total gun related deaths, including accidents and suicide.
Nor do they show the number of woundings.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You get a clearer picture of Gun related deaths and injuries so far this year, in the USA, from this link

Devastating maps show how many shootings have rocked US in 2017 | Metro News


Looks safer to be a policeman than a child or a teenager, from those maps.

 

[Revoltingest]

And I thought that was daft as well....... all you guys had to say was that you don't trust your own reloads as you do new cartridges and rounds.

Reloads are trustworthy.
People are not.
So one should be aware of the probabilistic nature of the court system, & act in
one's own best interest. This means understanding & creating appearances.

I seem to remember that you are allowed to load your guns with hollow point bullets, is that true? If so the 'I dare not hand load for possible legal comebacks' is just..... colleywobblers. In any event, the purchasing of a handguin and deliberately carrying in public or placing on your bedside table means exactly the same thing. You intended to shoot.....

Hollow points are legal.
But you're missing a significant distinction which has both moral & legal aspects.
To intend to shoot someone is far different from intending to be capable of
shooting someone in self defense.
It's analogous to fire insurance.....
One doesn't intend to collect. One buys it as a financial defense in case of fire.

 

[Revoltingest]

...we were discussing folding bikes when you wrote that piece, a list of 'things to do' for safety before going on a bike ride. A blooming bike trip, FGS.

Of course it's unclear...... it couldn't possibly be crystal clear or you would be wanting to do something about it. But where your kids are not free to go out to a park, or bike riding, or just visiting friends, or where adults cannot go out to enjoy a birthday dinner (etc) without firstly needing to gun-up............. is not freedom.

Your saying "needing to gun-up" is mischievous.
We've been doing this awhile, & I've yet to be able to convey the idea that
I live in a relatively safe area, & feel no compelling "need" to be armed.
It's simply a worthwhile choice to address something quite unlikely.

Domestic Security is not high here, imo, but it's brilliant compared with average US homes that we see on telly. My wife watches an animal-cop telly programme (Texas?) where SPCA ops rescue back-yard guards dogs that have been left for so long on a chain that their fur has grown around it.

I strongly recommend against basing your view of a country's society upon TV shows.
Otherwise, one might think your national sport is throwing acid at each other's faces.

We do get the impression that the domestic US in general won't spend a buck on sensible security but fills up the home with friggin' guns and hot air about 'rights to defend'.

I cannot argue with your impressions.
You'll just have to endure them.
But if things here were really as bad as you think,
Horace Rumpole wouldn't have retired in Florida.

Some delicious irony....
You & yours so vigorously oppose gun ownership by people in a distant
country, separated by thousands of miles of ocean. It's odd that the
strength of your fear impedes an accurate understanding of our law,
politics, & society.
But I remind you that guns came in handy back in the day, when your ilk
crossed that ocean, & we had to twice kick your colonial arschen out.

 

[Revoltingest]

It shows that America has by far the worst record for gun violent deaths in the 1st world.

however none of those figures show the total gun related deaths, including accidents and suicide.
Nor do they show the number of woundings.

We must also be wary of statistics which falsely make
the picture look worse by including justifiable shootings.

Interesting....would you say that every country with more
gun deaths is third world / undeveloped?

 

[esmith]

You get a clearer picture of Gun related deaths and injuries so far this year, in the USA, from this link

Devastating maps show how many shootings have rocked US in 2017 | Metro News


Looks safer to be a policeman than a child or a teenager, from those maps.

No that is hardly a "clear" picture of gun firearm related deaths and and injuries.. To be a clear picture it would have to have a synopsis of each incident. You can use sensationalism to make a point but you can not use it for any understanding of the events.
I'm not trying to shoot (pun intended) your argument down, just trying to say that it would behoove one to have more facts and what happened and why if you are trying to make a valid point.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Maybe you aren't ok with people having semi-automatic firearms, like the AR-15 style, there are those of us that enjoy using them for sporting events, and other activities. You do realize that the percentage of these firearms used in criminal activities are very very very low. But it is understandable your thought process is blurred by the media hype and those that do not have a clue what they are talking about.

"You do realize that the percentage of these firearms used in criminal activities are very very very low. "

How many deaths before you'd willing to give up your "sporting event"?