ProphecyKid
Member
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
How do you reconcile your belief with the proceeding scripture?
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What happens to us when we die?
- Thread starter michel
- Start date
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
How do you reconcile your belief with the proceeding scripture?
OmarKhayyam
Well-Known Member
"At that time our spirits will be reunited with our perfected and immortalized bodies. We will then continue on our eternal paths. At this point I am not entirely certain as to what type of work we will be doing, but I am certain, Jesus Christ, will have plans for us. Though we will glorify Him eternally, that has never been His desire. His desire is that all glory goes to His Father. I will follow Him."
This is just mindless self satisfying delusion. There is not one single fact anywhere that supports a word of this "scenario." :areyoucra
It has as much substance as a wet dream.
This is just mindless self satisfying delusion. There is not one single fact anywhere that supports a word of this "scenario." :areyoucra
It has as much substance as a wet dream.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Thief here....
In faith Omar and I are as different as night and day.
But in these recent postings we agree.
The argumentative techniques lack the quality to convince.
Omar would say 'nay' to my belief.
I would say 'nay' to his.
But to convince a man to belief...just because you quote Scripture?
I think not.
In faith Omar and I are as different as night and day.
But in these recent postings we agree.
The argumentative techniques lack the quality to convince.
Omar would say 'nay' to my belief.
I would say 'nay' to his.
But to convince a man to belief...just because you quote Scripture?
I think not.
slave2six
Substitious
Just expressing my opinion. That is allowed here, yeah?
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
I did not say anything about 'an absolute death', Jeremiah. The Bible teaches resurrection not immortality. Jesus and his Apostles demonstrated on a small scale what will take place on a grand scale in the "new earth". (2 Peter 3:13)
All those who were resurrected in the Bible (with the exception of Jesus himself) were brought back to life on earth. If these ones had gone to heaven, then Jesus and the Apostles were doing them a great disservice by bringing them back to life here, only to die a second time, wouldn't you say?
Acts 24:15 says "and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."
John 5:28, 29, "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."
In order to come out of their "tombs" or "graves", they must still be in them.
Jesus said his friend Lazarus was "sleeping", when in fact he had died. (John 11:11-13)
The other gifts of the spirit were also a demonstration of what was to come...healing the sick, restoring sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, curing every sort of disease and disability.
The Bible does not teach that everyone goes to heaven. We are designed to live right here on earth, without sickness, old age or death. Adam ruined that for us, Jesus' sacrifice is the means to get it all back. He will take a "chosen" few from the earth to assist him, (his joint heirs. Romans 8:17) but the majority of humans will live on earth. :yes:
The earth is designed for humans and the other creatures God created to live here. He did not go to all the trouble to put us here, live a few troubled years and then die. He designed us to live here forever. We were not supposed to die. Death came with sin. (Romans 5:12) When Christ paid the ransom he canceled out sin, which in turn cancels out death.
Makes sense to me...
Deeje
"I did not say anything about 'an absolute death',"
Pardon me. At any rate, whether "sleep" or resurrection on earth I am content with either.
Me too!! :yes:
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Thief here...Hey!...Wake up!.....
You're selling yourself short.
To live forever is spiritual.
The flesh cannot support that longevity.
And the limitations would become so redundant you would give it up...
just to have it end.
This life has limit in every way. There is just so much you can eat...drink...
sleep...dream...
A few hundred years of this, and you would find yourself doing all kinds of deviation...just to break the boredom.
Then God would put you back together...so you can 'live' forever.
Eventually...you will curse this mortal coil.
Spiritual life doesn't have the same limits. In an old book, it is written....
"Ye are gods."
You're selling yourself short.
To live forever is spiritual.
The flesh cannot support that longevity.
And the limitations would become so redundant you would give it up...
just to have it end.
This life has limit in every way. There is just so much you can eat...drink...
sleep...dream...
A few hundred years of this, and you would find yourself doing all kinds of deviation...just to break the boredom.
Then God would put you back together...so you can 'live' forever.
Eventually...you will curse this mortal coil.
Spiritual life doesn't have the same limits. In an old book, it is written....
"Ye are gods."
Prophecy kid, that totally supports my beleif. When we die our spirits will go to the spirit world, our mortal bodies return to the dust of the earth, they disintegrate. But, many years after the scripture you quoted was written, Our Savior, Jesus Christ, came into the world and literally broke the bands of death. His immortalized, perfected body was reunited with His perfect spirit. You don't need to try and make things mysterious, they are not. Our Saviors gospel is pure and simple.
Hello Thief...(wonder what you're stealing...?
) Anyways, I just thought I'd run through a couple of things to address your statements here....
"The flesh cannot support that longevity.
And the limitations would become so redundant you would give it up...
just to have it end."
In the Bible (don't know if you accept it's writings as an old book) it states in Genesis that God created humans and indeed all living things on this planet. The earth is designed for these living things and they are designed for the earth. There was no mention of death for humans apart from the warning that if they broke one simple rule (which imposed no hardship on them at all; it was just a test of obedience) that they would forfeit their gift of life. There were two 'special' trees in the garden, the one they were not supposed to even 'touch' and another one called "the tree of life". (So they had a choice...eat from one tree and go on living indefinitely or eat from the other one and lose your life completely) Medical science cannot tell you why the process of cell renewal in the body breaks down. They cannot tell you why you age and eventually die. They can tell you how but not why. Eternal life in the flesh is not only possible but was the original plan. They chose the wrong tree!!
When humans found themselves on the receiving end of the death penalty, they were kicked out of their paradise home and forced to live out the remainder of their lives denied access to the "tree of life". Death was now at work in their physical bodies along with the aging process and vulnerability to disease and disability.
Humans lost a lot more than their own physical health and nice surroundings that day; they also sentenced their children to the same fate. Hence the rescue mission with Jesus coming to earth to ransom the human race by offering his life in exchange for the one Adam forfeited.
But think what humans lost...their physical, moral and mental perfection, unending life (guaranteed by the "tree of life") a secure future for their children, provision of food without too much work, a wonderful relationship with each other and with their Creator. As soon as their sin was exposed, Adam blamed God for giving the woman to him! If it hadn't been for her..... (This in spite of the fact that he was head over heels with the prospect of a mate. He had been alone in the world for quite some time apparently, judging from his response at receiving her as a wife. Gen 2:23) So passing the buck came into human experience very early in the piece.
"A few hundred years of this, and you would find yourself doing all kinds of deviation...just to break the boredom." What boredom? If one had to endure an eternity of this life with all its woes and limitations...then you are absolutely right! But life originally was to have no limits. What if you had full mental and physical capabilities. No undertaking would prove to be an impossibility. There would be no frustration at your inability to accomplish any task. Think of the things you could study...think of the things you could make, think of the relationships you could have with fellow humans who would all be as intelligent as yourself...no drop kicks or deadbeats. (no offense to the dropkicks or deadbeats
) Everyone on the 'same page', spiritually and mentally. (Don't we get along best with those we feel are kindred spirits?...those who like what we like and who are interesting to talk to?) We are inclined to think of life in the flesh as defective (which it is now) but the whole idea of sending Christ to the earth to rescue Adam's children was to get back what we lost...everlasting life in paradise on earth! With removal of the defects. :yes:
Have you ever wondered about the abilities of 'idiot servants' (a horrible term for a person who is incredibly gifted in art, music or mathematics, but who falls short in other mental capabilities) With these little 'pockets' of genius, they are a 'throwback' to perfection; they demonstrate what humans are actually capable of, and what they will yet be capable of in the future.
The human brain is designed to store an eternity of information. Science estimates that we use only a small fraction of its capabilities....but that will not always be the case.It was never God's intention to take humans to heaven or that we had to become 'spirit' creatures in order to be God's children. (He already has lots of spirit 'sons' created long before we were.) You don't have to be a 'spirit' to be 'spiritual'. Humans are designed to be spiritual, or else we would not be made in God's 'image' and 'likeness'.
There is a whole other perspective to explore if you just consider the possibilities......
Maybe it is you selling yourself short....think outside the square!
Deeje
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Yes, you are allowed to be rude and tell people their conversation is worthless. Doesn't make it necessary.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Thief here...Hey Deeje....
I grew up with the scenario you have recited.
I'm not selling myself short.
In spirit...I would have only the limitations of spirit.
This life is continual compromise.
To have what you want...you must surrender some portion of yourself.
Your time... your effort... your will.....to have...
what you eat... what you wear.... how you deal with others.
The utopia that you wrote about does not exist.
It never did and never will.
Life in it's best rendering, is close to God.
God is spirit. The Sons of God are spirit.
Heaven is a spiritual living.
I grew up with the scenario you have recited.
I'm not selling myself short.
In spirit...I would have only the limitations of spirit.
This life is continual compromise.
To have what you want...you must surrender some portion of yourself.
Your time... your effort... your will.....to have...
what you eat... what you wear.... how you deal with others.
The utopia that you wrote about does not exist.
It never did and never will.
Life in it's best rendering, is close to God.
God is spirit. The Sons of God are spirit.
Heaven is a spiritual living.
OmarKhayyam
Well-Known Member
Cite a fact kid, any will do - even ONE will do - that supports your myth.
BTW, thought you weren't quoting from your favorite books a fables. Wha' happen?
MY COMMENTS: Having read through all the posts concerning this subject, It would seem that the views of any religious book or any person are just as possible as any one's or any book's. Yet, they seem the phantasies of man's imagination.
No one has died and come back to life to reveal the truth of this question, except one man, Jesus Christ, raised from the dead to never die.
No where in the Bible does he describe being somewhere with all his senses during the three days and three nights in the tomb. The Bible is clear, he was dead (without life) for that time until he was roused from the dead.
Michel, IMO you have quoted a number of relavant scriptures:
Man became a living soul, a living being, when the breath of the spirit of life was breathed into his nostrils.
NOTICE: A separate soul was not infused into Adam's body.
When it says "man is a living soul", it means he is a "sentient being."
When a living soul dies, he is a dead soul: the body returns to the soil and his feelings, memory, experiences etc, disappear.
Many times in the Bible the soul is said to die or be dead:
See Josh. 10:28,30,32,35 and Ezek 18:4.
Even today we might say, "That poor soul". People are referred to as "souls".
The 'spirit' of man is not immortal. It is his life force being created in him as long as he is breathing (see Zech. 12:1). It is a gift from God.
When man dies, his spirit (life force) returns to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7).
As Michel quoted, in death there is NO memory, no praise, no knowledge, no wisdom, etc.
The cure for death is Resurrection.
All mankind are dying for we are Adam's offsprings. God who created the universe through Christ his son, does not will to lose any humans.
Through one man (Adam) sin and death entered the world of man, and death passed upon all men in that all men sin.
But God,through his love for mankind,sent his only Son to be the sacrifice for sin. And now we are conciliated to God through Christ, and as an ambassador of Christ I would implore you to be reconciled to God.
Those who believe in Christ now are part of his body, his complement, to enjoy grace and peace now, and after being caught up to the heavens, to enjoy blessings unimaginable.
This then is a promised hope, not to be saved from death, but to be saved out of death.
Thief, I believe that we are programmed by our Creator for a whole different life....otherwise why do we long for things to be better? Why is there an ideal by which we compare our present existence, that screams in us that the trials of this life are all wrong? Have you ever asked these questions?.....
If death is natural and inevitable, why do we mourn? If death takes us to a better place, why do we grieve....why are we not rejoicing?
Why is every part of the world that is deemed 'paradisaic' overwhelmed with tourists? Why is our desire for beautiful surroundings and beautiful things an all consuming 'thing' for a lot of people? Where does this 'materialistic bent' come from?
Why is there a moral sense in man that is missing in animals?
Why do humans alone enjoy art, poetry and music that they themselves invent?
Why does man alone have ability to plan and envision the future exclusively by his own will? Animals are, by and large, programmed by instinct. They know how to build 'homes' for themselves....look at all the different nests that the various species of birds make for the rearing of their young. Each species builds a different 'home'; they follow the exact same pattern as others of their species without any instruction.
Look at the insects who gather and store food and who construct elaborate 'housing', like spiders who spin webs of exquisite design to trap their food. And who will build it again and again without complaint.
Who teaches bees to gather food for their colony, producing honey for our enjoyment, whilst at the same time pollinating plants to ensure their reproduction and the continuation of the food cycle? :clap
There is so much that points us to a Creator who's wisdom and abilities are beyond our comprehension. This Creator designed us to live here on earth. Our senses are designed to appreciate all the other created material things here. Our interaction with other species on this planet was intended to be symbiotic. "Domestic' animals were separate from the 'wild' animals; purely designed to be perfectly integrated with human life. We were supposed to be caretakers of this beautiful planet but instead, greedy humans rape and pillage!
This 'hang up' about ending up in a "spiritual" place where things will be idyllic stems from our yearning for the life we were supposed to have in the beginning. Experience tells us that life here is awful! (Or should I say that feral humans make life here awful. :fight
Untouched natural beauty touches our soul in an amazing way. Without our senses this would all be a waste!In our desire for the life we were supposed to live, we invent a better place to end up so that we have some kind of hope for a better future. God has designed us to live forever so we cannot imagine ourselves out of existence, once we are here. When death entered our lives our hearts could not process such a foreign element so humans went on to invent places for "souls" to go. It had to be somewhere better than this. Some allowed their sense of justice to invent a hell of eternal torture as recompense for bad conduct. "Death" (termination of existence) however was to be the 'wages of sin'.
The Creator has a better life planned already, (he always did) and it doesn't involve going anywhere. He has told us of his intentions to rectify our current situation, rid the earth of the 'ferals' (who would like us to suffer under their domination of the planet) and restore the paradise he meant for us to enjoy at the start. He will even return the dead for a second chance at life. "Resurrection" means "a standing up again" and all those spoken about in the Bible were resurrected back to life on earth.
God's plan is worked out in 'universal time', not 'human time' because it is not just humans involved in the issues raised in Eden. All must choose whom they want to be their God....even the ones who don't want to believe he exists, or who have written him off.
Angelic spirit creatures went 'feral' too. If we all want free will we have to be willing to sacrifice for it in the short term.
The resolving of these issues will result in legal precedents that will last for all eternity. Never again will there be rebels who can disrupt our lives and create havoc with the earth or the creatures who live on it.
The future is going to be wonderful for those who have not sold out.
Deeje
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Thief here...the question is...
What happens to us when we die?
The answer is....
You will stand up...out of your flesh (resurrection) ....or you will follow your flesh into the box.
The box goes into the ground.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.
Eternal darkness is physically real.
If you stand...
The angelic will be there. They have first discretion who follows...and who doesn't.
What happens to us when we die?
The answer is....
You will stand up...out of your flesh (resurrection) ....or you will follow your flesh into the box.
The box goes into the ground.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.
Eternal darkness is physically real.
If you stand...
The angelic will be there. They have first discretion who follows...and who doesn't.
"All must choose whom they want to be their God....even the ones who don't want to believe he exists, or who have written him off."
This statement is patently false.
Says who......?