What Happens When You Die?

[Thief]

Without our memories, our personalities, our abilities, our bodies....What's the difference between me and you?

Spot on!!!!!!

 

[godnotgod]

Without our memories, our personalities, our abilities, our bodies....What's the difference between me and you?

None, but that is not the question. The question has to do with the presence of that universal sameness prior to the accumulation of distinct characteristics. That is to say, that underneath the differences, we are all the same. The differences are transitory; the universality is eternal.

The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere.

Why should the true nature of reality be different from you to I?

Every snowflake is unique in its outward characteristics, but all are made of water.

 

[InsurgoInsurgiInsurrect]

It goes much further than that......

When you die.....your awareness turns to what?......or Who....

Melodramatic much? When you go to sleep your awareness turns to what? Dreams... disconnected random thought. Is it really random? You don't have to die to lose consciousness... Sleep happens everyday and there is always the occasional surgery.

And they can see the way you think and feel.
So I believe.

This life is a learning experience.
You take with you what you become.
They decide if they want to hang out with you.
Or leave you where your chemistry failed.

OR....
You can follow your body into the box and then into the ground.
Eternal darkness is a physical reality.
Not a philosophical idea.

When you die.....

They decide eh? Who are they? Is it Fallenheart the eternal ranger who watches over everyone and enforces immortality for only the worthy? Perhaps it is Jesus who believes just about anything you can think of if you go by the various sects of religions who embrace him.

When you die... What if you don't die? What if you didn't need to sleep or die? Your argument is rapidly becoming dated. Mysticism is cool but science is down right awesome. Antibiotics have cured more people from simple infections and ear aches then any known prayer to any known god. But maybe they didn't pronounce amen correctly.

 

[atanu]

But you CAN be forsaken.---.

Surely, the ego will be forsaken and that will be painful, if it is not discrded successfully now.

 

[godnotgod]

Surely, the ego will be forsaken and that will be painful, if it is not discrded successfully now.

What ego exists that can be discarded, nor anyone who can discard it?

The more that efforts are made to discard the ego, the more it will persist.

 

[godnotgod]

Mysticism is cool but science is down right awesome. Antibiotics have cured more people from simple infections and ear aches then any known prayer to any known god. But maybe they didn't pronounce amen correctly.

Why do you pit mysticism against science? That is senseless. Mysticism cannot do what science can, and vice versa. Mysticism reveals the true nature of reality, something science is incapable of doing due to the very nature of its approach. While there is no doubt about the effectiveness of applied science, what good is it if you are perfectly healthy but do not know yourself.

 

[atanu]

What ego exists that can be discarded, nor anyone who can discard it?

The more that efforts are made to discard the ego, the more it will persist.

I agree, but not fully.

The nature of consiousness is such that what is believed becomes true. Discarding the ego means discarding the notion of separateness -- and for the initiates that means effort.

Do not please tell me that the prescribed practices of different schools such as yoga/jnana/zen/meditation can all be thrown out.

i differ on this point.

 

[Koldo]

None, but that is not the question. The question has to do with the presence of that universal sameness prior to the accumulation of distinct characteristics.

'I' didn't exist before the accumulation of distinct characteristics.
That's what gave birth to 'I'.
There can be no 'I' without 'you'.

Would you say that airships existed before they were invented ?
The components were all over the world.
Would you say that a core component of the airship is the airship?

That is to say, that underneath the differences, we are all the same. The differences are transitory; the universality is eternal.

Which doesn't say much, if anything at all.
If there is something in common between two things as well as differences between them, then it is safe to conclude that underneath the differences they are the same thing.

Underneath all differences between the Taj Mahal and the Empire State Building, they are the same thing. They are both buildings.

 

[Thief]

Surely, the ego will be forsaken and that will be painful, if it is not discrded successfully now.

Ego as in...memories and events?
I think not.

The ego as in the the nature of your spirit...benign....evil....otherwise.....
Yes.

 

[Thief]

Melodramatic much? When you go to sleep your awareness turns to what? Dreams... disconnected random thought. Is it really random? You don't have to die to lose consciousness... Sleep happens everyday and there is always the occasional surgery.



They decide eh? Who are they? Is it Fallenheart the eternal ranger who watches over everyone and enforces immortality for only the worthy? Perhaps it is Jesus who believes just about anything you can think of if you go by the various sects of religions who embrace him.

When you die... What if you don't die? What if you didn't need to sleep or die? Your argument is rapidly becoming dated. Mysticism is cool but science is down right awesome. Antibiotics have cured more people from simple infections and ear aches then any known prayer to any known god. But maybe they didn't pronounce amen correctly.

Dead men don't have a cure.

Dreams?....indeed!

See the film....'What Dreams May Come".

 

[godnotgod]

I agree, but not fully.

The nature of consiousness is such that what is believed becomes true. Discarding the ego means discarding the notion of separateness -- and for the initiates that means effort.

Do not please tell me that the prescribed practices of different schools such as yoga/jnana/zen/meditation can all be thrown out.

i differ on this point.

By practicing yoga, etc., your true nature begins to awaken. As this occurs, and one becomes more focused on the authentic Self, the machinations of the ego begin to lessen more and more. One's vision is now becoming clearer, so when the ego makes its appearance, it is only necessary to see it for what it is. To engage it by actively trying to discard it only makes it stronger. You cannot discard something that is not real.

A belief seen as real is still at all times only a belief, but can be acted upon as if it were true, as in The Inquisition or The Holocaust.

In Zen particularly, meditation brings what is referred to as 'Big Mind' into play. Ego is termed 'monkey mind' due to its characteristic of jumping around like a monkey. The dissipation of monkey mind is likened to allowing the mud to settle to the bottom of a pond whose waters have been churned up, so that the water eventually becomes still and clear of its own accord. The more effort you make to make the water clear by interfering, the more you will churn up the mud. That is why the Taoists say: "Do nothing and achieve everything", and the Zennist have their axiom of 'actionless activity', and both: 'leave no trace'.

 

[godnotgod]

'I' didn't exist before the accumulation of distinct characteristics.
That's what gave birth to 'I'.
There can be no 'I' without 'you'.

Would you say that airships existed before they were invented ?
The components were all over the world.
Would you say that a core component of the airship is the airship?

What was before "I" did not give birth to "I"; your social indoctrination did. At any rate, If "I" came into existence at some point, as you seem to agree, then what was in place prior to "I"?

Which doesn't say much, if anything at all.
If there is something in common between two things as well as differences between them, then it is safe to conclude that underneath the differences they are the same thing.

Underneath all differences between the Taj Mahal and the Empire State Building, they are the same thing. They are both buildings.

Your analogy is incorrect: buildings are artifacts that are made; we are not artifacts; we are grown. To say that the "I" is temporal and that what existed prior to that is eternal says everything.

Buildings still have differing characteristics. Our true natures, underneath the "I", are all the same, just as all waves are made of the same substance as the sea: water. In other words, I am referring to an undifferentiated, formless state of being.

 

[Koldo]

What was before "I" did not give birth to "I"; your social indoctrination did. At any rate, If "I" came into existence at some point, as you seem to agree, then what was in place prior to "I"?

In place prior to 'I'? Nothing was in its place.

Your analogy is incorrect: buildings are artifacts that are made; we are not artifacts; we are grown. To say that the "I" is temporal and that what existed prior to that is eternal says everything.

To grow we depend upon the existence of other components.

 

[godnotgod]

In place prior to 'I'? Nothing was in its place.

So you just suddenly emerged out of Nothing and became "I"?

To grow we depend upon the existence of other components.

Yes, like air, water, molecules, sunshine, food, etc, all of which came to you courtesy of the universe, which was already in place. So you did not come INTO the world; you came OUT of it.

 

[Koldo]

So you just suddenly emerged out of Nothing and became "I"?

No. 'I' emerged out of the distinction between 'me' and 'you'.

Yes, like air, water, molecules, sunshine, food, etc, all of which came to you courtesy of the universe, which was already in place. So you did not come INTO the world; you came OUT of it.

'I' came into existence because of the world.

 

[atanu]

By practicing yoga, etc., your true nature begins to awaken. As this occurs, and one becomes more focused on the authentic Self, the machinations of the ego begin to lessen more and more. One's vision is now becoming clearer, so when the ego makes its appearance, it is only necessary to see it for what it is. To engage it by actively trying to discard it only makes it stronger. You cannot discard something that is not real.

Yes. I agree. Similarly, statements such as "There is no ego. There is no ego. There is no person There is no person", etc. may act help to reinforce what the unreal.

In Zen particularly, meditation brings what is referred to as 'Big Mind' into play. Ego is termed 'monkey mind' due to its characteristic of jumping around like a monkey. The dissipation of monkey mind is likened to allowing the mud to settle to the bottom of a pond whose waters have been churned up, so that the water eventually becomes still and clear of its own accord. The more effort you make to make the water clear by interfering, the more you will churn up the mud. That is why the Taoists say: "Do nothing and achieve everything", and the Zennist have their axiom of 'actionless activity', and both: 'leave no trace'.

Similarly, Gita teaches of actionless action. However, that is easier said than done (or not done).

Considering diversity of the levels of understanding, there are teachings that help to en-smallen (if there is such a word) the ego sense towards the final emanicipation. The rationale is that the ego actions will continue their course. So, a person has to sustain the impact, small or severe, of such reactions without creating more karma.

So, my submission is that the many teachings that we see do help people of different levels.

 

[Twilight Hue]

In Zen particularly, meditation brings what is referred to as 'Big Mind' into play.

Reminds me of Gempo....and Warners sock monkey. Couldnt resist. We now continue on with the regularly scheduled thread. ;0)

 

[godnotgod]

No. 'I' emerged out of the distinction between 'me' and 'you'.

But you had previously stated that:

"In place prior to 'I'? Nothing was in its place."

So the distinction itself had to have come from the non-distinct, from no-thing.

'I' came into existence because of the world.

Do you mean the natural world, or do you mean the world of social interactions?

 

[godnotgod]

So, my submission is that the many teachings that we see do help people of different levels.

Yes, of course, but in the end, we must go beyond the teachings, to negate negation.

 

[Me Myself]

I keep on living. Always different, never the same.