What Happens When You Die?

[Thief]

There never was a time when the universe, and all that it is, has ever been separated from the Absolute. It is the Absolute which manifests the universe, just as the ocean manifests waves. But waves are still made of the same material as the ocean; water, just as we are of the same essence as the Absolute, even though we create the false idea that we are somehow separate from it.

Consciousness is non-local. The consciousness with which we are aware is not a personal consciousness. 'Personal' consciousness that we call "I" is an illusion of the mind, which is a self-created principle. This illusory, personal consciousness is called 'Identification', referred to as 'self'.

"The universe is the Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation."
Vivikenanda

You have missed atanu's point, which is that you are not composed of fecal matter, even though materials present in past fecal matter may now be part of your composition.

Nay!
'You' can be identified.
Physically in so many ways.

Spiritually...intellectually....as well.

And of course....'you' are over there.
'I' am over here.
We don't share the same address.

 

[atanu]

Nay!
'You' can be identified.
Physically in so many ways.
Spiritually...intellectually....as well.
And of course....'you' are over there.
'I' am over here.
We don't share the same address.

Are you not deluded by the ego "i"?

Waves on an ocean can temporarily be identified. Yes.

Yet the waves never stop being the ocean. In fact, you are saying something like "I am a wave and I can see the ocean. You cannot see the ocean and nor can the ocean see me". No, it is the ocean that alone can see the wave/s.

 

[atanu]

Different gold jewellery can be identified by their forms-names. But a bangle is just a shape of gold alone, albeit endowed with a specific function. Similarly ring is another shape. Chain is another. etc. etc.

When it is said 'He was before all and all subsist in Him', what does that mean?

 

[Thief]

Are you not deluded by the ego "i"?

Waves on an ocean can temporarily be identified. Yes.

Yet the waves never stop being the ocean. In fact, you are saying something like "I am a wave and I can see the ocean. You cannot see the ocean and nor can the ocean see me". No, it is the ocean that alone can see the wave/s.

The physical comparisons work as long as you note.....
Spirit is not physical.

btw...waves never die.
They recycle as undercurrents....and the current of the ocean is global.

But the comparison fails.....
Spirit can make denial.

Your spirit is defined by what you deny.

 

[Thief]

Different gold jewellery can be identified by their forms-names. But a bangle is just a shape of gold alone, albeit endowed with a specific function. Similarly ring is another shape. Chain is another. etc. etc.

When it is said 'He was before all and all subsist in Him', what does that mean?

A statement of the Creator about His nature.

 

[atanu]

A statement of the Creator about His nature.

So, nature is not a being.

 

[Thief]

So, nature is not a being.

How about...a Creator sets things in motion.

The Creator remains the Creator....
And all things are in motion because of Him.

The motion we call...nature.

 

[Straw Dog]

I think, at least, some of our fear of death comes from the way we talk about it as if it were an actual experience. It's rational to fear associated pain, but after death there is no longer any sensation so there is no experience of oblivion to fear. Also, I think it's foolish to judge moments as insufficient if one can't have an eternal sequence of them. I guess I'm more of a quality over quantity kind of guy.

 

[Thief]

I think, at least, some of our fear of death comes from the way we talk about it as if it were an actual experience. It's rational to fear associated pain, but after death there is no longer any sensation so there is no experience of oblivion to fear. Also, I think it's foolish to judge moments as insufficient if one can't have an eternal sequence of them. I guess I'm more of a quality over quantity kind of guy.

Not sure...so...you believe in continuance?

 

[Straw Dog]

Not sure...so...you believe in continuance?

Not particularly. That's not to say that I know of course, but it doesn't strike me as likely. Considering that all of one's sensory equipment rots with the remains, I'd rather just cease completely than live on as a blind, deaf, numb, mute shade of my former self. Sure, the promise of an afterlife may help calm the fear of death, but at the expense of introducing a new fear of the afterlife that may be preyed upon by charlatans, etc.

 

[Thief]

Not particularly. That's not to say that I know of course, but it doesn't strike me as likely. Considering that all of one's sensory equipment rots with the remains, I'd rather just cease completely than live on as a blind, deaf, numb, mute shade of my former self. Sure, the promise of an afterlife may help calm the fear of death, but at the expense of introducing a new fear of the afterlife that may be preyed upon by charlatans, etc.

Okay....but I believe we go on.

And the real predator might be more dangerous.

What if life in the hereafter is as fragile as life in this world?

I don't think Man was created to fail in spirit...in body,yes....but not in spirit.

 

[Straw Dog]

Okay....but I believe we go on.

And the real predator might be more dangerous.

What if life in the hereafter is as fragile as life in this world?

I don't think Man was created to fail in spirit...in body,yes....but not in spirit.

Fair enough.

Personally, I don't view death as a failure, though. It's a part of recycling elements through the greater ecosystem to allow new life forms to emerge. Our elements are only on loan from nature and we are only one expression of life. I also don't discern "spirit" as something separate from body. I am open to changing my mind, but further investigation always seems to reinforce my doubts.

If I may inquire further: What is it, specifically, that you believe goes on after death? What does the "spirit" mean to you? How can it survive without the body? Is it even desirable to survive without it?

 

[godnotgod]

Are you not deluded by the ego "i"?

Waves on an ocean can temporarily be identified. Yes.

Yet the waves never stop being the ocean. In fact, you are saying something like "I am a wave and I can see the ocean. You cannot see the ocean and nor can the ocean see me". No, it is the ocean that alone can see the wave/s.

Nice expansion of the ocean/wave metaphor.

 

[godnotgod]

How can it [spirit] survive without the body?

I would ask the opposite.

 

[Straw Dog]

I would ask the opposite.

Either way, there's no way to establish "spirit" as something self-existent and separate from the body and mind. The word originally comes from the Latin spiritus, meaning "breath". The first sign that someone had passed away was that they stopped breathing. Their "spiritus" literally left the body.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I would ask the opposite.

The difference is that we know the body exists, but there's no evidence whatsoever that any kind of spirit exists.

 

[Willamena]

Chopra: [Sighs] Wisps of memory and threads of desire, which are specks of information, latch onto specks of consciousness and show up as recycled human beings. But in the bigger picture, the observer, the observed, the process of observation, is a single reality.

I like that.

What do you think Chopra means when he says:

"What happens when you die, is you return to where you always are."

You can't technically return to somewhere you never were. Yet, there you are...

 

[godnotgod]

Either way, there's no way to establish "spirit" as something self-existent and separate from the body and mind. The word originally comes from the Latin spiritus, meaning "breath". The first sign that someone had passed away was that they stopped breathing. Their "spiritus" literally left the body.

There is no way to establish spirit as self-existent via rational or logical means. But there is a way beyond all doubt via the intuitive pathway. To travel that path, however, requires the cessation of the activities of the rational, thinking, discriminating mind. It is then that Universal Mind comes into play.

Not sure if 'spiritus' came before 'pneuma', but the Greeks thought that air (pneuma) was spirit.

 

[Straw Dog]

There is no way to establish spirit as self-existent via rational or logical means. But there is a way beyond all doubt via the intuitive pathway. To travel that path, however, requires the cessation of the activities of the rational, thinking, discriminating mind. It is then that Universal Mind comes into play.

Not sure if 'spiritus' came before 'pneuma', but the Greeks thought that air (pneuma) was spirit.

Intuition is only one faculty that is best utilized in coordination with reason rather than in opposition. How can you define "Universal Mind" without reason? Also, why does intuition deserve special mystical value attributed to it at the expense of other equally essential faculties? Why the bias against the discriminating faculty?

 

[godnotgod]

Intuition is only one faculty that is best utilized in coordination with reason rather than in opposition. How can you define "Universal Mind" without reason? Also, why does intuition deserve special mystical value attributed to it at the expense of other equally essential faculties? Why the bias against the discriminating faculty?

It's not a bias. It's simply that the discriminating mind is an obstacle to the realization of Universal Mind. The thinking mind is forever attempting to conceptualize reality; to make it conform to its preconceived assumptions. Reality as it is, is One. The discriminating mind always attempts to 'understand' reality via dissection and analysis. In doing so, it can only create concepts and models of Reality.

The intuitive mind is not the goal here, but the pathway that leads to the direct SEEING of Reality as it is, rather than how the thinking mind says it is. In seeing Reality as it is, there is no thought involved, therefore, there is no concept, idea, belief, or notion as to what Reality might be.

Universal Mind already is. It does not require a method to realize it, such as Reason, Logic, or Analysis, which are not essential faculties as regards the apprehension of Reality as it actually is. All that you have is the pure and direct experience of Reality as it is, with nothing in the way, not even an idea of an experiencer of the experience.

God is not the root of contradiction, but God is the simplicity itself prior to every root. Nicholas of Cusa

The place wherein Thou art found unveiled is girt round with the coincidence of contradictions, and this is the wall of Paradise wherein Thou dost abide. The door whereof is guarded by the most proud spirit of Reason, and, unless he be vanquished, the way in will not lie open. Nicholas of Cusa