What Happens When You Die?

[godnotgod]

Of course not. Science does not go there.

I am surprised that suddenly you have become a scientific man.

He likes to use science when it agrees with his beliefs. Uses it to wag the dog. LIke many fundies, they need to hide behind the color of some kind of authority to lend an air of 'authenticity' to feel important, but most of all, secure. The bottom line is that, the more accretions of authority one can accumulate, the more secure.

 

[Hitchey]

What happens when you die?

I suspect the same thing that happens to a bacterium. Its constituent parts get recycled, but as a life form it ceases to exist.

 

[godnotgod]

I suspect the same thing that happens to a bacterium. Its constituent parts get recycled, but as a life form it ceases to exist.[/i][/color]

All of life is constant change of form. From one moment to the next, nothing remains the same, though in some forms, the change is slower than in others. So what actually exists perse? We speak of an ocean wave as a 'thing', but in actuality, there is no such thing as 'wave'. It is more an action than a thing. Is that not also true of all form? The phenomenal world is entirely moving energy-form.

So where is existence? And if there is no existence perse, then where is birth and death? That is to say, what is it that is born? What is it that dies?

"All this world is filled with coming and going (ie; birth and death);
show me the path where there is no coming and there is no going"
Buddha

 

[Hitchey]

So where is existence? And if there is no existence perse, then where is birth and death? That is to say, what is it that is born? What is it that dies?

Armchair philosophizing, or something more?

I currently have no reason for thinking existence continues after death. I once believed it did: based on wishful thinking. In time I recognized my belief in an afterlife was not validated by my experiences. It is not so much that I willing surrendered that earlier hope, rather it simply fell away as my reasons for believing it eroded.

 

[Thief]

Of course not. Science does not go there.

I am surprised that suddenly you have become a scientific man.

Love science....grew up that way....excelled in my studies...
And I believe in God because of it.

 

[Thief]

All of life is constant change of form. From one moment to the next, nothing remains the same, though in some forms, the change is slower than in others. So what actually exists perse? We speak of an ocean wave as a 'thing', but in actuality, there is no such thing as 'wave'. It is more an action than a thing. Is that not also true of all form? The phenomenal world is entirely moving energy-form.

So where is existence? And if there is no existence perse, then where is birth and death? That is to say, what is it that is born? What is it that dies?

"All this world is filled with coming and going (ie; birth and death);
show me the path where there is no coming and there is no going"
Buddha

There you go again.....if the terms don't suit you.....they're not real.

 

[godnotgod]

Armchair philosophizing, or something more?

So you think I am wrong when I say that there is no such thing as a wave?

Did you understand the question: 'who is it that lives; who is it that dies?'

Did you understand the request: all this world is filled with coming and going; show me the path where there is no coming and there is no going.

 

[Hitchey]

So you think I am wrong when I say that there is no such thing as a wave?

Yes, yes; a particle or a wave? I am familiar with that, but that is not evidence of the continuance of life after death.

Did you understand the question: 'who is it that lives; who is it that dies?'

A quote from the TV series, Kung Fu?

No, sorry. That last one escapes me. Are you arguing that we join a vast wheel of consciousness following death, and that the individual is lost to the whole; or are you arguing that the individual remains fully aware of his individuality; or are you saying that the universe is so overwhelmingly mysterious that we can't possibly know what follows?

Did you understand the request: all this world is filled with coming and going; show me the path where there is no coming and there is no going.

There is continuous vibration and movement until absolute zero is achieved and then all movement (consciousness?) is totally extinguished; but does consciousness return when energy is added to the system?

There you have it; absolute zero: no more coming and going.

It seems to me all you are saying is there are yet things we do not understand. I accept that, but ignorance is not proof that consciousness remains when the brain and body die. I require something concrete if I am to change my view.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, yes; a particle or a wave? I am familiar with that, but that is not evidence of the continuance of life after death.

Sorry, I should have made it clear that I was referring to an ocean wave, as I had spoken of that shortly before. So to rephrase:

So you think I am wrong when I say that there is no such thing as an ocean wave?

A quote from the TV series, Kung Fu?

No, sorry. That last one escapes me. Are you arguing that we join a vast wheel of consciousness following death, and that the individual is lost to the whole; or are you arguing that the individual remains fully aware of his individuality; or are you saying that the universe is so overwhelmingly mysterious that we can't possibly know what follows?

No. You previously stated:

"I currently have no reason for thinking existence continues after death."

I am referring to current existence. Who is this "I" to which you refer; the one that lives and dies?

There is continuous vibration and movement until absolute zero is achieved and then all movement (consciousness?) is totally extinguished; but does consciousness return when energy is added to the system?

There you have it; absolute zero: no more coming and going.

It seems to me all you are saying is there are yet things we do not understand. I accept that, but ignorance is not proof that consciousness remains when the brain and body die. I require something concrete if I am to change my view.

'Coming' and 'going', as I indicated, are metaphors for 'birth' and 'death'. Is there another path beyond these two that is available to you in the here and now?

I am merely trying to establish whether or not there is a self that is born, that currently exists, and that dies.

It appears from your comment above that you think consciousness is dependent upon brain and body. That means that consciousness is localized, rather than universal. Is that the case?

 

[Hitchey]

Sorry, I should have made it clear that I was referring to an ocean wave, as I had spoken of that shortly before. So to rephrase:

So you think I am wrong when I say that there is no such thing as an ocean wave?

Well, a rogue wave sunk the Ocean Ranger; I have been swept off my feet by ocean waves, and my uncle lost his cottage to shoreline erosion cause by wave action. Waves do seem real enough. So your point is...?

No. You previously stated:

"I currently have no reason for thinking existence continues after death."

I am referring to current existence. Who is this "I" to which you refer; the one that lives and dies?

This "I" is myself, but you understand that. I am not following your meaning.

'Coming' and 'going', as I indicated, are metaphors for 'birth' and 'death'. Is there another path beyond these two that is available to you in the here and now?

I am merely trying to establish whether or not there is a self that is born, that currently exists, and that dies.

It appears from your comment above that you think consciousness is dependent upon brain and body. That means that consciousness is localized, rather than universal. Is that the case?

Yes, localized and dependent on brain activity; and no, I did not pick up on coming and going being metaphors for birth and death.

I have a friend who follows Buddhist teachings, though whether she is a Buddhist per se or a New Age thinker following a westernized eastern philosophy of life, I am not sure. Be that as it may, she and I were discussing this matter a few weeks ago and she expressed the view that consciousness resided in parts of the body outside the brain. We were both stunned: I by her saying this, and she by my not taking this for granted. Have you any comments?

Note: as you may have guessed I am not exactly conversant in eastern philosophy, or the language associated with it.

 

[atanu]

------ she expressed the view that consciousness resided in parts of the body outside the brain. We were both stunned: I by her saying this, and she by my not taking this for granted. Have you any comments?

Note: as you may have guessed I am not exactly conversant in eastern philosophy, or the language associated with it.

Mind resides as a thought in the consciousness. In mind are all objects, including the self in the form of a body and the universe.

Sorry for butting in.

 

[Thief]

Mind resides as a thought in the consciousness. In mind are all objects, including the self in the form of a body and the universe.

Sorry for butting in.

But our minds are not all encompassing....we lean to linear thinking.

All objects in mind?....nay.

 

[godnotgod]

Mind resides as a thought in the consciousness. In mind are all objects, including the self in the form of a body and the universe.

Sorry for butting in.

Please proceed.

 

[atanu]

But our minds are not all encompassing....we lean to linear thinking.

All objects in mind?....nay.

Because you have delineated a separate mind of your own. Mind is such that it takes the shape of thoughts and objects and that is the magic of universal unlimited mind.

Did you create that delineated mind of yours? Go back and enquire "Who Am I?"

 

[atanu]

Please proceed.

Thanks. I just butted in impulsively. It is your thread and you surely doing better than any other could do.

 

[Hitchey]

Mind resides as a thought in the consciousness.

Sorry for butting in.

Not to worry, I welcome all input.

Your contribution, however, doesn't make the waters any less cloudy. I probably would consider the mind as being synonymous with consciousness. When, for instance, I say my mind is made up I mean I have made a conscious decision to set myself on a specific path.

In mind are all objects, including the self in the form of a body and the universe.

Have you another way you could say this?

 

[atanu]

Not to worry, I welcome all input.

Thanks. I made a long reply that got washed out. So let me be brief.

Your contribution, however, doesn't make the waters any less cloudy. I probably would consider the mind as being synonymous with consciousness. When, for instance, I say my mind is made up I mean I have made a conscious decision to set myself on a specific path.

Have you another way you could say this?

We notice infinite space in which all celestial objects are. Have you ever noticed the mind-space between two thoughts? Or have you analysed why there are no objects in deep sleep when the mind-senses are functioning at minimal?

Mind is manifested consciousness, which is unborn.

We may explore more, if there is interest. I will request you to read through the following (again, only if there is an interest).

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...en-mind-consciousness-western-psychology.html

 

[godnotgod]

Not to worry, I welcome all input.

Your contribution, however, doesn't make the waters any less cloudy. I probably would consider the mind as being synonymous with consciousness. When, for instance, I say my mind is made up I mean I have made a conscious decision to set myself on a specific path.


Have you another way you could say this?

When you just see, without thought, that is consciousness.

When you think: "I think", that is mind.

The mind is a self-created principle. It is an illusion. Consciousness is real.

When you see things with the mind, you do not see them as they are. You see them as you think they are. You see them as separate things.

When you see things with consciousness, you see them as they are. You do not see them as separate things. You see everything as One, which is the way things actually are. A Zen master once said: 'we see things as it is'.

'The universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

 

[Thief]

Because you have delineated a separate mind of your own. Mind is such that it takes the shape of thoughts and objects and that is the magic of universal unlimited mind.

Did you create that delineated mind of yours? Go back and enquire "Who Am I?"

False concept.

You are having a linear existence.
Denial is futile.

(magic is your reference?)

 

[atanu]

False concept.

You are having a linear existence.
Denial is futile.

(magic is your reference?)

Concepts are false only. Most faulty are of course your ideas, which are firmly rooted on a firm ego sense associated with the most faulty concept 'this body is me'. Being such, all your idea are faulty in infinite ways.

:clap