What Happens When You Die?

[Thief]

Can you show, via argumentation, that anything has ever been 'created'?


Thief, you have claimed respect for science. Are you now saying you are unaware of the scientific discovery that the atom is over 99.xx% empty space? Tell me it isn't so.

Grade school science for me....almost fifty years ago.

But if you're going to tell me your head is 99% empty.......

 

[Thief]

Scripture as an argument?
See Genesis.

 

[godnotgod]

Grade school science for me....almost fifty years ago.

But if you're going to tell me your head is 99% empty.......

No, but someone I know is 99% dense! :slap:

 

[atanu]

There is but one Reality. Hinduism does not possess a proprietary key to it. I find validity in many disciplines, even Christianity. I highly value the study of comparative religions, which has helped me to understand the rationale behind each one, and how their doctrines arose. In spite of the Buddha having been steeped in Hinduism, he managed to overcome doctrine and dogma and to spiritually awaken.

Legion is incorrect. For one, I recently presented an argument from another source pointing to the relationship of Buddhist Sunyata to Brahman. I did not make this up nor 'impose' any such imperialist view upon Eastern wisdom. You have never adequately addressed this post, because your doctrine triggers a knee-jerk reaction. IOW, you interpret everything in terms of your indoctrination. Much of what you assert is simply dogma, and Buddhistic thought seems to be automatically classified as nihilistic, Godless crap. But I can see why Legion appeals to you: both of you adopt a rigid view, his intellectual and academic, yours that of religious anthropomorphic dogma.

A Hindu acquaintance of mine was proud of the display of modern destructive weaponry being paraded in the streets of one Indian city, pointing to the artwork on each warhead as being representations of Shiva and Vishnu, a continuation of the tribal warfare of the Hindu clans. The Buddha tried to prevent bloodshed between these warring clans. His was a message of real peace, and not just the interlude between conflicts that is called peace.

The Buddha saw the problems associated with the extreme views people held in his time, and so rejected them in favor of a more balanced view of life he called The Middle Path.

The point I am trying to make is that Reality should never be interpreted in terms of any doctrine or teaching, but the teaching should be interpreted in terms of the direct experience of Reality. This is a crucial point, one which Yeshu also tried to make. Of course, Yeshu was not a man of the West, but of the East anyway.

Thank you for the correction of Vivekananda's name. I am sure he will not be offended, as you pretend to be over such a minor point. Legion also loved to stir up a lot of dust over academic minutiae, whlle using his knowledge of Greek to browbeat and humiliate, while missing the real heart of the matter. I am surprised that you would use him as an authority weapon in an attempt to invalidate my view. If you wish to invalidate my view, then confront me directly with an argument, rather than ad hominem.

I relentlessly repeat Vivekananda's statement because it means something significant and compelling:

'The Universe is the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'

edit: Legion has the historical knowledge, but confuses it for the spiritual understanding, which is always transcendent of history.

Pardon me please.

I have tried to show from Shruti and in own words of Hindu teachers that Brahman, Atman is of the nature of existence, Consciousness, Bliss. It is empty of objects but it is fully the Self, fully the Being, and fully Consciousness.

I have tried to show that the sense of awareness of Self in all beings, the AUM is That. This "AUM" is also the way.

But I do feel sorry for these attempts.

 

[godnotgod]

Scripture as an argument?
See Genesis.

I did. It talks about a cute little serpent that later became the Malevolent Satan in the form of 'that old Dragon', which was created out of whole cloth in Revelation. Turns out the author or Revelation, John of Patmos, had been exiled to the Greek island of Patmos, where hallucinogenic fungi grows rampant. Much of the imagery in Revelation is consistent with hallucinatory experiences that modern researchers have documented. If not due to the fungi, his descriptions still fit those of a psychiatric conditon, known as:


Schizophreniform psychoses, in people under severe emotional or psychic stress has a sudden onset, characterized by florid hallucinations, delusions and extreme behavioral disturbances. Hallucinations are very often visual and usually involve fantastic animals with frequent religious and magical content. Psychiatrists consider prognosis very good for this condition, for symptoms very often subside quickly with no residual personality effects as is usual in true schizophrenia.


John's phantasmagoric visions of heaven, angels and fantastic beasts are remarkably schizophreniform in character. The identification of who the John of the "Book of Revelatoin" is, however, of paramount importance to our "diagnosis."


The significance of the identification of the "John" of the Book of Revelation with the Apostle John is that an old man is his nineties forcibly exiled to a derelict island by the Roman authorities may be considered a susceptible subject for schizophreniform "crisis behavior" under emotional and physical stress.

The Book of Revelation of St. John: Schizophreniform Phantasmagoria? | God Discussion

This is a rational argument against scripture. Do you have one in its defense?

 

[godnotgod]

Pardon me please.

I have tried to show from Shruti and in own words of Hindu teachers that Brahman, Atman is of the nature of existence, Consciousness, Bliss. It is empty of objects but it is fully the Self, fully the Being, and fully Consciousness.

I have tried to show that the sense of awareness of Self in all beings, the AUM is That. This "AUM" is also the way.

But I do feel sorry for these attempts.

When working with this type of material, you cannot just cut to the chase. One has to lead the reader to it, using first a rationally-based approach. The only effective descriptions of the divine world are those that speak in negative terms about what God is not. But regardless, the point is that Ultimate Reality is completely doctrineless; being beyond all names, descriptions, forms, or concepts. Neither full nor empty can describe it. It is beyond all duality. No religion or doctrine can encapsulate it. That is why Zen calls itself a 'finger pointing to the moon, but is not the moon itself'. Silent pointing is the key.

 

[atanu]

Anyone can have any view. There is no problem there.

But when a term as Brahman is used or when a Shruti such as Tattvamasi is used, one should adhere to the correct usage.

Brahman is not defined as non existence. Brahman is not defined as 'not Self'.

(Brahman is defined as Neti Neti .. Not this not this. It cannot be grasped as an object.

Brahman is defined as Akhanda-Ekarasa-Satchidananda-Ghana (indivisible, one causal essence, True, Existent, Consciouness, Bliss, and Unparted). Self-Atman, which is the pure objectless awareness of existence in us, and Brahaman are not two.

Highlighting 'non existence' and 'not self' as attributes of the Absolute (often termed brahman in this thread), is wrong syncretism, IMO. This alone is my objection.

 

[godnotgod]

Anyone can have any view. There is no problem there.

But when a term as Brahman is used or when a Shruti such as Tattvamasi is used, one should adhere to the correct usage.

Brahman is not defined as non existence. Brahman is not defined as 'not Self'.

(Brahman is defined as Neti Neti .. Not this not this. It cannot be grasped as an object.

Brahman is defined as Akhanda-Ekarasa-Satchidananda-Ghana (indivisible, one causal essence, True, Existent, Consciouness, Bliss, and Unparted). Self-Atman, which is the pure objectless awareness of existence in us, and Brahaman are not two.

Highlighting 'non existence' and 'not self' as attributes of the Absolute (often termed brahman in this thread), is wrong syncretism, IMO. This alone is my objection.

OK. Bottom line is that Brahman is non-dual: neither existing nor not-existing. However Pure Being is absolute, and I think we need to make the distinction.

The distinction must also be made between self and Self. It is here I think that we disagree.

Question: In your view, is Self boundless and infinite; formless and invisible?

 

[atanu]

OK. Bottom line is that Brahman is non-dual: neither existing nor not-existing. However Pure Being is absolute, and I think we need to make the distinction.

The distinction must also be made between self and Self. It is here I think that we disagree.

Question: In your view, is Self boundless and infinite; formless and invisible?

If one rejects all that can be grasped as Neti-Neti (not this not this), what remains?

If one rejects all things as antta, what remains?

 

[Thief]

I did. It talks about a cute little serpent that later became the Malevolent Satan in the form of 'that old Dragon', which was created out of whole cloth in Revelation. Turns out the author or Revelation, John of Patmos, had been exiled to the Greek island of Patmos, where hallucinogenic fungi grows rampant. Much of the imagery in Revelation is consistent with hallucinatory experiences that modern researchers have documented. If not due to the fungi, his descriptions still fit those of a psychiatric conditon, known as:


Schizophreniform psychoses, in people under severe emotional or psychic stress has a sudden onset, characterized by florid hallucinations, delusions and extreme behavioral disturbances. Hallucinations are very often visual and usually involve fantastic animals with frequent religious and magical content. Psychiatrists consider prognosis very good for this condition, for symptoms very often subside quickly with no residual personality effects as is usual in true schizophrenia.


John's phantasmagoric visions of heaven, angels and fantastic beasts are remarkably schizophreniform in character. The identification of who the John of the "Book of Revelatoin" is, however, of paramount importance to our "diagnosis."


The significance of the identification of the "John" of the Book of Revelation with the Apostle John is that an old man is his nineties forcibly exiled to a derelict island by the Roman authorities may be considered a susceptible subject for schizophreniform "crisis behavior" under emotional and physical stress.

The Book of Revelation of St. John: Schizophreniform Phantasmagoria? | God Discussion

This is a rational argument against scripture. Do you have one in its defense?

No wonder you have difficulty accepting....'your'...'self'.

 

[godnotgod]

No wonder you have difficulty accepting....'your'...'self'.

You are making zero sense. What does accepting myself have to do with the validity/invalidity of scripture?

Can you provide a counter-argument to my post re: John of Patmos, or not?

 

[godnotgod]

If one rejects all that can be grasped as Neti-Neti (not this not this), what remains?

If one rejects all things as antta, what remains?

I don't make the distinction between Brahman and maya. They are one and the same, so I neither reject nor not-reject. To think 'reject or accept' is to dwell in the realm of duality.

If only Brahman is real, what is there to reject or accept?

 

[Runewolf1973]

I don't make the distinction between Brahman and maya. They are one and the same, so I neither reject nor not-reject. To think 'reject or accept' is to dwell in the realm of duality.

If only Brahman is real, what is there to reject or accept?

Excellent.

 

[`mud]

Oh so much is laying all about....but no-one picks any of it up !
Whether or not Brahman or whatever is empty or whole, filling or emptying, is caring or not, ( I would bet wishes on caring), there are way too many idols represented here, they're all over the page.
When one is dead, not a heart rate, no breath in or out, no remaining temperature, I call that dead.
No Brahman or other needed, now......what do we do with the body, do we do, do we do ?
some will burn, the life blood drained or evaporated, gone away forever, empty flask with Brahman.
What's left we'll bury in the ground, unless spilling over land and sea is appropriate, nice touch, that.
Nowwwwww.....Hell or Heaven, maybe in between, but there it is, your future, the memories of you, those memories stay with the rememberers.
Those memories stay in the minds of those that cared and somewhat with those that don't, good or bad, they can't go with you......
Who's going to repair the damage done by age, death, and spoilage for thousands of years, where'd the gas go, and etc, etc......
Hearing Theif and his cohorts, Jesus is coming back in a round of blaring trumpet calls and put everyone back together.....
Really ? Do I have that right ? OK.....when ? But that doesn't really matter, Jesus has love to give and a lot of patience,
remember, heaven, or hell, lasts a long, long time......take lunch !
How the hell is he going to put all those souls and pieces and gases back together...I'm really amazed by the incoming wave of reconstruction coming.
~
What's out waiting for me is going to be lonely, since I won't really be there, good luck with your memories, what ever they are, and your prayers.
I'm going to miss some that are gone, as some will miss me, but in a while, everything fades, so will Jesus, some day.
~
'mud

 

[Thief]

You are making zero sense. What does accepting myself have to do with the validity/invalidity of scripture?

Can you provide a counter-argument to my post re: John of Patmos, or not?

Can you accept 'you'?
So far....no.

And if your going wave a prophet in my face He should be your leaning post.
Not your distraction or redirection.

There's no respect for such tactics.

 

[atanu]

Oh so much is laying all about....but no-one picks any of it up !
Whether or not Brahman or whatever is empty or whole, filling or emptying, is caring or not, ( I would bet wishes on caring), there are way too many idols represented here, they're all over the page.
When one is dead, not a heart rate, no breath in or out, no remaining temperature, I call that dead.
No Brahman or other needed, now......what do we do with the body, do we do, do we do ?
some will burn, the life blood drained or evaporated, gone away forever, empty flask with Brahman.
What's left we'll bury in the ground, unless spilling over land and sea is appropriate, nice touch, that.
Nowwwwww.....Hell or Heaven, maybe in between, but there it is, your future, the memories of you, those memories stay with the rememberers.
Those memories stay in the minds of those that cared and somewhat with those that don't, good or bad, they can't go with you......
Who's going to repair the damage done by age, death, and spoilage for thousands of years, where'd the gas go, and etc, etc......
Hearing Theif and his cohorts, Jesus is coming back in a round of blaring trumpet calls and put everyone back together.....
Really ? Do I have that right ? OK.....when ? But that doesn't really matter, Jesus has love to give and a lot of patience,
remember, heaven, or hell, lasts a long, long time......take lunch !
How the hell is he going to put all those souls and pieces and gases back together...I'm really amazed by the incoming wave of reconstruction coming.
~
What's out waiting for me is going to be lonely, since I won't really be there, good luck with your memories, what ever they are, and your prayers.
I'm going to miss some that are gone, as some will miss me, but in a while, everything fades, so will Jesus, some day.
~
'mud

The problem with this is that awareness that animated a body before death cannot be cremated or buried. Further, when a body is buried or cremated, already the awareness and life force has shifted base.

 

[atanu]

I don't make the distinction between Brahman and maya. They are one and the same, so I neither reject nor not-reject. To think 'reject or accept' is to dwell in the realm of duality.

If only Brahman is real, what is there to reject or accept?

Hah. Hah. Your theories .. Of course.

Brahman, as per Vedanta, is non dual essential efficient and causal substance of manifestation. How a non dual Brahman appears as many is due to the power of magic inherent in Brahman. From Absolute perspective, Brahman is never partitioned and never in ignorance.

But to mind, the non dual is not evident and all actions emanate from notions of multiplicity as really real. This is mAyA.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The problem with this is that awareness that animated a body before death cannot be cremated or buried. Further, when a body is buried or cremated, already the awareness and life force has shifted base.

That awareness and "life force" are none other than the Fundamental Interactions. It is true they are what animates the body. Technically, they are what animates everything, all matter. Those interactions change over time but they do not cease at death, therefore our awareness does not cease it only changes. We simply reach a different level of awareness.

 

[godnotgod]

Hah. Hah. Your theories .. Of course.

Brahman, as per Vedanta, is non dual essential efficient and causal substance of manifestation. How a non dual Brahman appears as many is due to the power of magic inherent in Brahman. From Absolute perspective, Brahman is never partitioned and never in ignorance.

But to mind, the non dual is not evident and all actions emanate from notions of multiplicity as really real. This is mAyA.

ha ha ha ha...your beliefs, of course!

That is what I said.

If only Brahman is real, what is there to reject or accept?

 

[godnotgod]

The problem with this is that awareness that animated a body before death cannot be cremated or buried. Further, when a body is buried or cremated, already the awareness and life force has shifted base.

Actually, consciousness is always present in both life and death. The 'dead' body is very much alive, as it is now undergoing anaerobic decomposition. When it was alive, it nourishes its life via the consumption of 'dead' organic material. This is how life and death are inextricably intertwined.