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What Happens When You Die?

godnotgod

Thou art That
No , I don't think so. [/color]Just like water of Ganga and water of Volga are not of the same source , but still they are both water


If we remove impurity from water of Volga and Ganga , both of them will become pure. The procedure to remove impurity is the same and result is also the same. Still they are different water.

To sum it up , I believe Individual Consciousness is irreducible to Universal Consciousness.


Correct. IC cannot become UC. That is not what happens. What happens is that IC dissolves, as it is illusory, and UC shows that it has always been the case.

That water of Ganga and Volga are both water means they are from the same Source, though one or both may be impure. I do not mean from a physical source, but of the same nature.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
When you remove the impurities ie the filters , what we get is pure consciousness which is still personal, not universal consciousness.

It is the filters that comprise the personal "I", or individual 'self'. Where is this personal consciousness without such filters?

What we call "I" is merely a collection of images, experiences, impressions, etc. we acquire, or attach to in the course of life. In reality, there is no such entity, no such agent of doing called "I". Without such filters, what remains is only universal consciousness.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
So what you are saying is that Universal Consciousness is the actor, world is the actee(for the lack of actual word in English Vocabulary ) and Individual Consciousness is the agent of Universal Consciousness in this drama , right?

That is the illusion, yes. The Universal Consciousness has become lost in the drama, and thinks itself to actually be a personal consciousness. That is why it is called 'Waking Sleep'. UC has become identified with the drama, and is acting it out as if real, just as in the Second Level of Consciousness, that of Sleep with Dreams.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Your apparent unwillingness to accept other ways, paths, or truths is not the mark of a true Hindu.

Just the opposite.

If, being a Hindu, I were to insist in teaching Allah to a Muslim and Christ to a Christian, that would constitute obstinance.

To me a blanket statement such as "Brahman and mAyA are same" is not acceptable.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I originally used the ocean/wave metaphor to say that the wave is none other than the ocean. That is when YOU strained, not I. Do you wish for me to present the evidence?

I asked you "If Brahman and mAyA are same then why do you bother to teach?". It was not an accusation. It was a question.

Instead of answering, you just accused me.

Now. A wave is certainly not the ocean. The essence of a wave is same as the essence of the ocean. It is water.

Similarly. Jiva (living individual) has its essence same as Brahman. Bur an individual Jiva is not Brahman.

That does not change the fact that maya is none other than Brahman itself. [/COLOR]

Is mAyA a person? mAyA is magical power of Brahman, the One without A Second, to appear as many.

Brahman and mAyA are not of same ontological position. Brahman is Sat -- the Truth. mAyA is that which is not.

'The universe [ie maya] is [none other than] The Absolute [ie Brahman] as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation'
(bracketed words are mine)

Hello friend. Can you ever even consider that your understanding of foreign words could be wrong?

Universe is not mAyA. Universe is 'Jagat'.

Brahman, the indivisible One Without a Second (Existence-Consciousness-Bliss), appears as the variegated jagat (universe), apparently comprised of many discrete objects and beings, due to magical power (shakti) of Brahman.

This magical power is mAyA for the ignorant. When ignorance is removed there is no mAyA. There is only the non dual Brahman with its Shakti (power).


Kindly read the article fully. I show below that mAyA is not of same level as Brahman. mAyA is inscrutable power of Brahman. It is not correct to say Brahman and mAyA are same, since that will put mAyA at same ontological level as Brahman.

Reality experienced at the transcendental level is called
BRAHMAN. This term denotes the non-dual PURE
CONSCIOUSNESS which pervades the universe yet remains outside it....... In Brahman alone the apparent differences of the phenomenal world are unified. Brahman is identical with the self of man, known as atman.

The word ATMAN signifies the consciousness in man which
experiences gross objects during the waking state, subtle
objects during the dream state, and the bliss arising from
absence of the duality of subject and object in dreamless sleep.

....

The Rishis often describe the unconditioned Brahman
as existence-Knowledge-Bliss pure and absolute. Existence,
Knowledge and Bliss are not attributes of Reality, they are its
very stuff. ....

From the relative standpoint, however, the Vedas concede
the reality of the phenomenal universe with all its limitations,
and of finite living beings, who need an object of prayer and
worship. A phenomenal creature needs a liberator, a saviour
to whom he can pray, a personal God, benign and
compassionate, to whom he can stretch out his hand for
succour in the hour of stress and trial. By means of its
inscrutable power called MAYA, the unconditioned Brahman
becomes the conditioned Brahman endowed with attributes

.....
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The following is the summary of what I wish to convey.

mAyA is not of same level as Brahman. mAyA is inscrutable power of Brahman. It is not correct to say Brahman and mAyA are same, since that will put mAyA at same ontological level as Brahman.

For many, it may appear to be of little importance or of no consequence. But IMO Vedanta terms Brahman and mAyA must be understood as precisely possible. Further, this point is important for the OP.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Just the opposite.

If, being a Hindu, I were to insist in teaching Allah to a Muslim and Christ to a Christian, that would constitute obstinance.

To me a blanket statement such as "Brahman and mAyA are same" is not acceptable.

I see what your saying and I can agree with that. What I get is this... Brahman is the Absolute Truth and Maya is the illusion. Brahman is the formless and Maya is the forms. Is this correct? In a similar sense, what I call interaction is that formless (ultimate reality) whilst what we percieve as solid matter is the forms (illusions). Does this make a sense?
 

religion99

Active Member
Otherwise, how would one know that one is operating within IC?

Jainism believes that IC becomes SIC (Supreme Individual Consciousness) on self-realization. Jainism believes that IC is not illusion , but rather a real actual impure state of IC. There is a standard procedure to convert impure IC to pure IC. Jainism also denies existence of common UIC which is the source and destination of all the ICs. On becoming pure , ICs still remain individual but they remain pure forever because there is no cause to make them impure again. What is the problem with this theory?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
A metaphor is not saying that what is being compared are the same.



Nothing is ever lost. You are being fooled by the illusion of death that this is so.



My concern is not what happens after death, but what is occurring right here, right now. That is the only reality. The rest is imagination, belief, conjecture. Again, referring to Chopra, we return to where we always are, and that is none other the this eternal Present Moment. To think in terms of 'another realm' is a substantial, delusive idea.

Your concern to the present is placed well enough.
However, disregard to the consequence may prove foolish.

Are you not using terms indicative of Something Greater than yourself?

(there's a line drawn there)
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I asked you "If Brahman and mAyA are same then why do you bother to teach?". It was not an accusation. It was a question.

Instead of answering, you just accused me.

I was not accusing anyone. Was it not you who first said that it was I who 'strained', when, in fact, it was none other than you?

Now. A wave is certainly not the ocean. The essence of a wave is same as the essence of the ocean. It is water.
Yes, but the wave is indeed the ocean. We mentally isolate 'wave' but there is in fact no separation. Where do you see any such separation?

Similarly. Jiva (living individual) has its essence same as Brahman. Bur an individual Jiva is not Brahman.
Yes, individual Jiva is indeed Brahman, The Absolute! Kundalini Yoga teaches that each individual is none other than a microcosm of the entire universe.

'You are not just a drop in the ocean; you are the Mighty Ocean itself'
Rumi

Is mAyA a person? mAyA is magical power of Brahman, the One without A Second, to appear as many.
Neither is Brahman a person. There is no such 'person'. If Brahman is the One without a Second, appearing as many, that appearance is none other than Brahman.

As I understand it, maya is not the power of Brahman, but Brahman's manifestation. Brahman's power lies in tamas, rajas, and sattva, which together create maya:

"What do the Vedantins mean by maya? First, we know from the Upanishads that it is made of tamas, rajas, and sattva. Tamas has its veiling power; Rajas has its projecting power, and sattva has its revealing power. Now this language, "veiling", "projecting", and "revealing," is the language of perception, not the language of manufacture. You can't make anything out of a guna as the Sankhyans wanted to do. These three gunas, of which maya is said to be made, are just three aspects of a misperception. They are not substances, like wood, stone, or gold, out of which objects could be made. They are simply three aspects of an apparition. In order to mistake a rope for a snake, you must fail to see the rope rightly; that's the veiling power of tamas. Then you must jump to the wrong conclusion; that's the projecting power of rajas. You yourself project the snake. But the length and diameter of the rope are seen as the length and diameter of the snake; that's the revealingpower of sattva. If you hadn't seen the rope, you might have jumped to some other wrong conclusion."

The Equations of Maya

Brahman and mAyA are not of same ontological position. Brahman is Sat -- the Truth. mAyA is that which is not.
But if all is Brahman, then maya must also be Brahman. Otherwise, how can you talk about maya as different than Brahman?

Imagine that you know me well, but you do not know that I am a master of disguise. One day, I disguise myself as someone famous, and walk into the same coffee shop you are in. You think: 'Oh, look! That famous movie star, so and so!', and I come to your table and have conversation with you. You cannot believe that Mr. so and so is sitting at your table, but then I remove my mask, and we have a good laugh. Mr. so and so is none other than godnotgod, your familiar friend. In the same sense, Brahman is playing all the parts of the universe simultaneously, but the universe is, in fact, none other than Brahman.


Hello friend. Can you ever even consider that your understanding of foreign words could be wrong?

Universe is not mAyA. Universe is 'Jagat'.

Brahman, the indivisible One Without a Second (Existence-Consciousness-Bliss), appears as the variegated jagat (universe), apparently comprised of many discrete objects and beings, due to magical power (shakti) of Brahman.

This magical power is mAyA for the ignorant. When ignorance is removed there is no mAyA. There is only the non dual Brahman with its Shakti (power).
Therefore, what we thought was a snake, was all the time none other than a rope. We must congratulate the Originator of this most excellently and thoroughly convincing appearance.

It is said that, if one should meet the Devil face to face, do not fear; only congratulate him on the quality of his illusion.


Kindly read the article fully. I show below that mAyA is not of same level as Brahman. mAyA is inscrutable power of Brahman. It is not correct to say Brahman and mAyA are same, since that will put mAyA at same ontological level as Brahman.
Via your example:

By means of its inscrutable power called MAYA, the unconditioned Brahman
becomes the conditioned Brahman endowed with attributes...


I take issue with this, as unconditioned Brahman is The Changeless, and therefore cannot 'become' something other than what it is. Brahman does not 'become' the conditioned Brahman; Brahman is only revealed to have been there all the while. In fact, maya is not something that comes into being either; it was there right from the beginning:

Unless mAyA is already present, neither concealment nor projection can take place...
...For jIva itself cannot come into existence until mAyA has operated..[However] Time and space cannot claim prior existence. .It is therefore wrong to ask whether mAyA is prior to jIva or later than jIva. Ultimate Reality is beyond space and time. In the words of Swami Vivekananda [sic], time, space and causation are like the glass through which the Absolute is seen. In the Absolute itself, there is neither space, nor time nor causation.

The cause of the world versus the world itself gives us a comparison about their relative reality. When we say that the universe is unreal, we mean that it is unreal as the universe, but it is surely real as Brahman, its cause...

This phenomenon of Brahman not being visible but something else, the universe, being visible, is exactly what the term `mAyA' means. It does two things. It hides Brahman from you. Simultaneously it projects the universe to you...

The snake appears on the rope, the rope does not undergo any change, but the snake is supported by the rope, (meaning, without the rope there is no snake). But in reality the snake was never there and so it is also true to say that the snake is not in the rope. To the question: Where is the snake?, the answer is: it is in the rope. To the question, Is the snake there?, the answer is, there is no snake, the snake was never in the rope. It is in this strain that the Lord gives out, almost in the same breath, what appears to be two contradictory statements.

Everything is in Me; and nothing is in Me. This is the cosmic mystery of the existence of the Universe. It is and is not -
sad-asad-vilakshaNa, mAyA!

Professor V. Krishnamurthy


What is the nature of maya? Professor V. Krishnamurthy.
 
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AlphaAlex115

Active Member
I was not accusing anyone. Was it not you who first said that it was I who 'strained', when, in fact, it was none other than you?

Yes, but the wave is indeed the ocean. We mentally isolate 'wave' but there is in fact no separation. Where do you see any such separation?

Yes, individual Jiva is indeed Brahman, The Absolute! Kundalini Yoga teaches that each individual is none other than a microcosm of the entire universe.

'You are not just a drop in the ocean; you are the Mighty Ocean itself'
Rumi

Neither is Brahman a person. There is no such 'person'. If Brahman is the One without a Second, appearing as many, that appearance is none other than Brahman.
How are you able to be everything and nothing at the same time? You are making no sense. .
As I understand it, maya is not the power of Brahman, but Brahman's manifestation. Brahman's power lies in tamas, rajas, and sattva, which together create maya:

"What do the Vedantins mean by maya? First, we know from the Upanishads that it is made of tamas, rajas, and sattva. Tamas has its veiling power; Rajas has its projecting power, and sattva has its revealing power. Now this language, "veiling", "projecting", and "revealing," is the language of perception, not the language of manufacture. You can't make anything out of a guna as the Sankhyans wanted to do. These three gunas, of which maya is said to be made, are just three aspects of a misperception. They are not substances, like wood, stone, or gold, out of which objects could be made. They are simply three aspects of an apparition. In order to mistake a rope for a snake, you must fail to see the rope rightly; that's the veiling power of tamas. Then you must jump to the wrong conclusion; that's the projecting power of rajas. You yourself project the snake. But the length and diameter of the rope are seen as the length and diameter of the snake; that's the revealingpower of sattva. If you hadn't seen the rope, you might have jumped to some other wrong conclusion."

The Equations of Maya

But if all is Brahman, then maya must also be Brahman. Otherwise, how can you talk about maya as different than Brahman?

Imagine that you know me well, but you do not know that I am a master of disguise. One day, I disguise myself as someone famous, and walk into the same coffee shop you are in. You think: 'Oh, look! That famous movie star, so and so!', and I come to your table and have conversation with you. You cannot believe that Mr. so and so is sitting at your table, but then I remove my mask, and we have a good laugh. Mr. so and so is none other than godnotgod, your familiar friend. In the same sense, Brahman is playing all the parts of the universe simultaneously, but the universe is, in fact, none other than Brahman.


Therefore, what we thought was a snake, was all the time none other than a rope. We must congratulate the Originator of this most excellently and thoroughly convincing appearance.

It is said that, if one should meet the Devil face to face, do not fear; only congratulate him on the quality of his illusion.


Via your example:

By means of its inscrutable power called MAYA, the unconditioned Brahman
becomes the conditioned Brahman endowed with attributes...


I take issue with this, as unconditioned Brahman is The Changeless, and therefore cannot 'become' something other than what it is. Brahman does not 'become' the conditioned Brahman; Brahman is only revealed to have been there all the while. In fact, maya is not something that comes into being either; it was there right from the beginning:

Unless mAyA is already present, neither concealment nor projection can take place...
...For jIva itself cannot come into existence until mAyA has operated..[However] Time and space cannot claim prior existence. .It is therefore wrong to ask whether mAyA is prior to jIva or later than jIva. Ultimate Reality is beyond space and time. In the words of Swami Vivekananda [sic], time, space and causation are like the glass through which the Absolute is seen. In the Absolute itself, there is neither space, nor time nor causation.

The cause of the world versus the world itself gives us a comparison about their relative reality. When we say that the universe is unreal, we mean that it is unreal as the universe, but it is surely real as Brahman, its cause...

This phenomenon of Brahman not being visible but something else, the universe, being visible, is exactly what the term `mAyA' means. It does two things. It hides Brahman from you. Simultaneously it projects the universe to you...

The snake appears on the rope, the rope does not undergo any change, but the snake is supported by the rope, (meaning, without the rope there is no snake). But in reality the snake was never there and so it is also true to say that the snake is not in the rope. To the question: Where is the snake?, the answer is: it is in the rope. To the question, Is the snake there?, the answer is, there is no snake, the snake was never in the rope. It is in this strain that the Lord gives out, almost in the same breath, what appears to be two contradictory statements.

Everything is in Me; and nothing is in Me. This is the cosmic mystery of the existence of the Universe. It is and is not -
sad-asad-vilakshaNa, mAyA!

Professor V. Krishnamurthy


What is the nature of maya? Professor V. Krishnamurthy.


How are you able to be everything and nothing at the same time. . You are making no sense
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Jainism believes that IC becomes SIC (Supreme Individual Consciousness) on self-realization. Jainism believes that IC is not illusion , but rather a real actual impure state of IC. There is a standard procedure to convert impure IC to pure IC. Jainism also denies existence of common UIC which is the source and destination of all the ICs. On becoming pure , ICs still remain individual but they remain pure forever because there is no cause to make them impure again. What is the problem with this theory?

That what you call UIC still carries impurity with it. That impurity is the false notion of a separate self that is pure, compared to other selves that are impure. Duality and division where neither exist. PUre consciousness would be to go beyond pure/impure. That sounds contradictory, but there is a relative purity and an Absolute Purity. I take purity to mean clarity, and that means no self to get in the way. IOW, there is no agent of pure consciousness called 'self' or 'I'; there is only pure consciousness itself.

Q: How can that which is limited consciousness, ie; IC, become that which is unlimited consciousness, ie; UC? Is it not more like a sculpture, where material is removed to reveal the form that is already internally present? Nothing is 'becoming' something else at all.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
That what you call UIC still carries impurity with it. That impurity is the false notion of a separate self that is pure, compared to other selves that are impure. Duality and division where neither exist. PUre consciousness would be to go beyond pure/impure. That sounds contradictory, but there is a relative purity and an Absolute Purity. I take purity to mean clarity, and that means no self to get in the way. IOW, there is no agent of pure consciousness called 'self' or 'I'; there is only pure consciousness itself.

You drew line of superlatives.
All the while denying there are lines.

really?......pure/impure?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
How are you able to be everything and nothing at the same time. . You are making no sense

If you are Everything, that is Absolute, since there is then no 'other' to which you can be compared. Being Everything, you are No Particular Thing, separate 'things' being merely an illusion, since all is interconnected as 'Every-thing'.

In the sense of maya, however, the universe is merely a projection of The Absolute. In reality, it is Empty of any real substance. It is an apparition. But on the level of ordinary consciousness, ie; 'perceptual reality, the universe is real.

You recognize what appear to be existing, separate 'things' in the world only because there is a field, or background, against which all such 'things' can be determined to be as such. This background is passive, with the foreground of 'things' being the focus of your attention. But all such things cannot exist without this background against which they are seen. The background is 'no-thing-ness', or The Formless, out of which all form emerges, just as all wave-forms emerge out of, and return to, the formless, undifferentiated sea.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
You drew line of superlatives.
All the while denying there are lines.

really?......pure/impure?

You are looking only at the extreme polar opposites, and not seeing that there is a continuum from pure to impure, and that you cannot know the one state without knowing the other. This is, of course, in the relative sense. Beyond the relative, there is Absolute Purity for which no opposite exists.

When the Emperor of China asked the monk Bodhidharma: 'And what of the holy scriptures?', Bodhidharma replied:

'No holiness is clear, like space'
 
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AlphaAlex115

Active Member
If you are Everything, that is Absolute, since there is then no 'other' to which you can be compared. Being Everything, you are No Particular Thing, separate 'things' being merely an illusion, since all is interconnected as 'Every-thing'.

In the sense of maya, however, the universe is merely a projection of The Absolute. In reality, it is Empty of any real substance. It is an apparition. But on the level of ordinary consciousness, ie; 'perceptual reality, the universe is real.

I am not following you. .. so the universe is an illusion?
 
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