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What has gold to do with religion?!

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I do care about you that you agree with me. I respect every human being just because they are fellow human beings.

Hahahaha, don't be absurd. If you respected people you'd at least try to understand their religions enough to realise that quoting Gautama Buddha in relation to Hindus using gold in temple construction is a non-starter. If you respected people you wouldn't try to ignore the points they've brought up that your own religion does the exact same things you criticise non-Muslims for. If you respected people you'd at least try to understand that we're not as enslaved to the writings of dead men as you are because we can think for ourselves.
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Here, the narratives of Exodus, the narrators/scribes/clergy are at work. Moses never authored Exodus. Did he?
Book of Exodus

Jewish and Christian tradition viewed Moses as the author of Exodus and the entire Pentateuch, but by the end of the 19th century the increasing awareness of the discrepancies, inconsistencies, repetitions and other features of the Pentateuch had led scholars to abandon this idea.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exodus
8. Meyers, p. 16.​
Regards
Judaism people made the Golden Calf and started worshiping it:

220px-Worshiping_the_golden_calf.jpg

Worshiping the Golden Calf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_calf
Moses had to kill 3000 Jews, as per Torah, for this sin.
Even then the Jews could not forsake the love of gold, and the narrators/scribes/clergy tried to amass it under one pretext or the other.

Jesus cursed the Judaism people for this trend:
Matthew 23:15-33
15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You traverse land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes it sacred? 18And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes it sacred? 20So then, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the One who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the One who sits on it.
23Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cummin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside may become clean as well.
27Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside, but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and every impurity. 28In the same way, you appear to be righteous on the outside, but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?​
http://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/23.htm
Regards
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In other words Vedas were revealed to none, if they cannot name one person to whom a Veda was revealed. It has no founder. Please
Regards
It was revealed to hundreds of seers over a span of thousands of years, whose names are in the Vedas. But the major Samhitas were thought to have been revealed to the 7 great Brahmarshi-s (7 Supreme Seers). The number 7 (like the 12 Apostles) is a holy, so there was probably a few more than 7, but only 7 names are cited at a time. The most cited ones are

Angiras
Atri
Vasistha
Viswamitra
Bhrigu
Gautama
Bharadwaja
Kashyapa
Kanva



They have been thought to have been complied in the present format by the editor in chief of all Hindu scripture, Maharshi Veda Vyasa.

This is what Hindu-s believe. And this in accordance with the internal structure of the hymns themselves where the authors do sometimes refer to themselves.

Rig Veda first hymn:-
[01-001] HYMN I. Agni.
1 I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice, The hotr, lavishest of wealth.
2 Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers. He shall bring hitherward the Gods.
3 Through Agni man obtaineth wealth, yea, plenty waxing day by day, Most rich in heroes, glorious.
4 Agni, the perfect sacrifice which thou encompassest about Verily goeth to the Gods.
5 May Agni, sapient-minded Priest, truthful, most gloriously great, The God, come hither with the Gods.
6 Whatever blessing, Agni, thou wilt grant unto thy worshipper, That, Angiras, is indeed thy truth.
7 To thee, dispeller of the night, O Agni, day by day with prayer Bringing thee reverence, we come
8 Ruler of sacrifices, guard of Law eternal, radiant One, Increasing in thine own abode.
9 Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son: Agni, be with us for our weal.


That's what Hindus believe. Vedas are revealed scripture to great Seers with these names (and a few others) at the beginning of mankind.

 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
It was revealed to hundreds of seers over a span of thousands of years, whose names are in the Vedas. But the major Samhitas were thought to have been revealed to the 7 great Brahmarshi-s (7 Supreme Seers). The number 7 (like the 12 Apostles) is a holy, so there was probably a few more than 7, but only 7 names are cited at a time. The most cited ones are

Angiras
Atri
Vasistha
Viswamitra
Bhrigu
Gautama
Bharadwaja
Kashyapa
Kanva



They have been thought to have been complied in the present format by the editor in chief of all Hindu scripture, Maharshi Veda Vyasa.

This is what Hindu-s believe. And this in accordance with the internal structure of the hymns themselves where the authors do sometimes refer to themselves.

Rig Veda first hymn:-
[01-001] HYMN I. Agni.
1 I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice, The hotr, lavishest of wealth.
2 Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers. He shall bring hitherward the Gods.
3 Through Agni man obtaineth wealth, yea, plenty waxing day by day, Most rich in heroes, glorious.
4 Agni, the perfect sacrifice which thou encompassest about Verily goeth to the Gods.
5 May Agni, sapient-minded Priest, truthful, most gloriously great, The God, come hither with the Gods.
6 Whatever blessing, Agni, thou wilt grant unto thy worshipper, That, Angiras, is indeed thy truth.
7 To thee, dispeller of the night, O Agni, day by day with prayer Bringing thee reverence, we come
8 Ruler of sacrifices, guard of Law eternal, radiant One, Increasing in thine own abode.
9 Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son: Agni, be with us for our weal.


That's what Hindus believe. Vedas are revealed scripture to great Seers with these names (and a few others) at the beginning of mankind.

Kindly identify which verses were revealed on whom, the name of the seer, and your basis.
Regards
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Kindly identify which verses were revealed on whom, the name of the seer, and your basis.
Regards
Certainly. Here.
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/rig/ch2.htm

As I have shown you, many of the verses cite the authors themselves and there are extensive and early list of authors, families and lineages to whom these verses belong to. I have already referred to verse 1 where the author names himself Angirasas. 14 verses later, a set of hymns is composed by the Kanvas.

[01-014] HYMN X1V. Visvedevas.
1 To drink the Soma, Agni, come, to our service and our songs.With all these Gods; and worship them.
2 The Kanvas have invoked thee; they, O Singer, sing thee songs of praise Agni, come hither with the Gods;
3 Indra, Vayu, Brhaspati, Mitra, Agni, Pusan, Bhaga, Adityas, and the Marut host.
4 For you these juices are poured forth that gladden and exhilarate, The meath-drops resting in the cup.
5 The sons of Kanva fain for help adore thee, having strewn the grass, With offerings and all things prepared.
6 Let the swift steeds who carry thee, thought-yoked and dropping holy oil, Bring the Gods to the Soma draught.
7 Adored, the strengtheners of Law, unite them, Agni, with their Dames: Make them drink meath, O bright of tongue.
8 Let them, O Agni, who deserve worship and praise drink with thy tongue Tle meath in solemn sacrifice.
9 Away, from the Sun's realm of light, the wise invoking Priest shall bring All Gods awaking with the dawn.
10 With all the Gods, with Indra, with Vayu, and Mitra's splendours, drink, Agni, the pleasant Soma juice.
11 Ordained by Manu as our Priest, thou sittest, Agni, at each rite: Hallow thou this our sacrifice.
12 Harness the Red Mares to thy car, the Bays, O God, the flaming ones:With those bring hitherward the Gods.

A few verses later, one of the authors again names himself
[01-018] HYMN XVIII. Brahmanaspati.
1 O BRAHMANAPSATI, make him who presses Soma glorious, Even Kaksivan Ausija.
2 The rich, the healer of disease, who giveth wealth, increaseth store, The prompt,-may he be with us still.
3 Let not the foeman's curse, let not a mortal's onslaught fall on us Preserve us, Brahmanaspati.
4 Ne'er is the mortal hero harmed whom Indra, Brahmanaspati, And Soma graciously inspire.
5 Do, thou, O Brahmanaspati, and Indra, Soma, Daksina, Preserve that mortal from distress.
6.To the Assembly's wondrous Lord, to Indra's lovely Friend who gives Wisdom, have I drawn near in prayer.
7 He without whom no sacrifice, e'en of the wise man, prospers; he Stirs up the series of thoughts.
8 He makes the oblation prosper, he promotes the course of sacrifice: Our voice of praise goes to the Gods.
9 I have seen Narasamsa, him most resolute, most widely famed, As 'twere the Household Priest of heaven.

So we have internal testimony of the hymns with detailed listing of the authors and clans for each and every verse of the 4 Vedas as appendices (anukramani) to the Vedas themselves.

What more do you want?

For a detailed analysis of the author list, critical analysis and historical inferences, see this paper
http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/anukramani.pdf
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Judaism people made the Golden Calf and started worshiping it:

220px-Worshiping_the_golden_calf.jpg

Worshiping the Golden Calf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_calf
Moses had to kill 3000 Jews, as per Torah, for this sin.
Even then the Jews could not forsake the love of gold, and the narrators/scribes/clergy tried to amass it under one pretext or the other.

Jesus cursed the Judaism people for this trend:
Matthew 23:15-33
15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You traverse land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes it sacred? 18And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes it sacred? 20So then, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the One who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the One who sits on it.
23Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cummin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, so that the outside may become clean as well.
27Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside, but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and every impurity. 28In the same way, you appear to be righteous on the outside, but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?​
http://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/23.htm

Jesus says:
Matthew 19:23-24
23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
http://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/19.htm

Regards
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So your god(s) have a gold dependency? It's just some random metal that humans have arbitrarily assigned value do.
lol ... There is no gold dependency. It is much more like the fact of copper being an excellent conductor of electricity. Certain metals have certain properties. The mystics believe gold does. I don't expect anyone to agree or understand.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Kindly identify which verses were revealed on whom, the name of the seer, and your basis.
Regards

That's beyond silly and is disrespectful. You are in essence claiming that the Vedas are made up. That's an affront to Hindus.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What has gold to do with religion?!

Krishna's Bhagavad Gita on gold

Chapter 6, Verse 8

A person is said to be established in self-realization and is called a yogī [or mystic] when he is fully satisfied by virtue of acquired knowledge and realization. Such a person is situated in transcendence and is self-controlled. He sees everything—whether it be pebbles, stones or gold—as the same.
http://asitis.com/6/

Please
Regards
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
That's beyond silly and is disrespectful. You are in essence claiming that the Vedas are made up. That's an affront to Hindus.

What has gold to do with religion?!

Krishna's Bhagavad Gita on gold

Chapter 6, Verse 8

A person is said to be established in self-realization and is called a yogī [or mystic] when he is fully satisfied by virtue of acquired knowledge and realization. Such a person is situated in transcendence and is self-controlled. He sees everything—whether it be pebbles, stones or gold—as the same.
http://asitis.com/6/

Please
Regards

Are the majority of Hindus mystics?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What has gold to do with religion?!

Krishna's Bhagavad Gita on gold

Chapter 6, Verse 8

A person is said to be established in self-realization and is called a yogī [or mystic] when he is fully satisfied by virtue of acquired knowledge and realization. Such a person is situated in transcendence and is self-controlled. He sees everything—whether it be pebbles, stones or gold—as the same.
http://asitis.com/6/

Please
Regards
Which also shows you can use stones or gold as material to make idols, as to God they are all the same, and to a devotee.
So now that it is proved that material is absolutely irrelevant and one can use any (including gold), one comes back to metallurgy to determine that if one wants a metal idol (lighter than stone, easier to work with and shape) then gold plating is an excellent pragmatic choice...my first response.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
A major tenet of Hinduism, and possibly the very definition of being Hindu is accepting the authenticity of the Vedas as being apauruṣeyā, "not of human origin".

Okay, I didn't know that and now I do. Thanks for that. :) It's not what I was aiming for though. Paarsurrey is taking a verse that specifically talks about yogis and is applying it to Hinduism in general as if all or most Hindus are yogis. Is that the case?
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Which also shows you can use stones or gold as material to make idols, as to God they are all the same, and to a devotee.
So now that it is proved that material is absolutely irrelevant and one can use any (including gold), one comes back to metallurgy to determine that if one wants a metal idol (lighter than stone, easier to work with and shape) then gold plating is an excellent pragmatic choice...my first response.

Be prepared for the "this is not a metallurgy forum. Please." evasion :rolleyes:
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Which also shows you can use stones or gold as material to make idols, as to God they are all the same, and to a devotee.
So now that it is proved that material is absolutely irrelevant and one can use any (including gold), one comes back to metallurgy to determine that if one wants a metal idol (lighter than stone, easier to work with and shape) then gold plating is an excellent pragmatic choice...my first response.
Did Krishna as per Bhagvad Gita make any idol of gold himself and worship it? Please
Note: There is no intention to hurt anybody's personal feeling. We are just discussion a religious issue in search of Truth.
Regards
 
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