GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
Matthew 5:17 to 7:12
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What if these Christian beliefs are not true?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
It is Abdul'baha's comment, and both Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá demonstrated great reverence for the Bible, which in turn indicates that so should Bahá'ís.
It is sure spiritual guidance.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So strange for me to be siding with TB on this, but I think it is being dishonest for a Baha'i to try and pretend the Baha'i Faith fully supports the Bible and the NT.
Since this thread is about Christian beliefs that could be believed to be not true, one of the biggest beliefs that a Christian could have is that Jesus came back to life after being dead for three days. Is this just some goof ball interpretation Christians came up with or is it what the gospels say? Let's take a look at the story in one of the gospels...
Matthew 28 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’
And the story goes on to say how Jesus appeared to them. But was it some kind of vision? Was he some kind of ghost or spirit? No, it says that he was alive and was not a ghost.
Acts 1:3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive.
Luke 24:36 Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
So, Christians are taught to take these stories as being true and as "sure" guides, but are Baha'is taught to take them as being true? No, this is what Abdul Baha' say about the resurrection of Jesus. And it has nothing to do with the gospel stories.
We explain, therefore, the meaning of Christ’s resurrection in the following way: After the martyrdom of Christ, the Apostles were perplexed and dismayed. The reality of Christ, which consists in His teachings, His bounties, His perfections, and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and had no outward appearance or manifestation—indeed, it was as though it were entirely lost. For those who truly believed were few in number, and even those few were perplexed and dismayed. The Cause of Christ was thus as a lifeless body. After three days the Apostles became firm and steadfast, arose to aid the Cause of Christ, resolved to promote the divine teachings and practise their Lord’s admonitions, and endeavoured to serve Him. Then did the reality of Christ become resplendent, His grace shine forth, His religion find new life, and His teachings and admonitions become manifest and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ, which was like unto a lifeless body, was quickened to life and surrounded by the grace of the Holy Spirit.
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy did not grasp the meaning of the Gospels and did not comprehend this mystery, it has been claimed that religion is opposed to science, for among other things the ascension of Christ in a physical body to the material heavens is contrary to the mathematical sciences. But when the truth of this matter is clarified and this symbol is explained, it is in no way contradicted by science but rather affirmed by both science and reason.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, The Resurrection of Christ
Very, very different... For a Baha'i the "sure" guide about the resurrection of Jesus is not what the gospels say, but it should be what Abdul Baha says. Which is fine for Baha'is. And in no way should a Baha'i be going around preaching that Jesus rose physically from the dead. Now a Christian, who does take the gospels as a "sure" guide and as being the literal Word of God, they would believe that Jesus came back to life and would go around preaching that. And Baha'is would believe that they are wrong.
So, if some Baha'is go around saying that the Bible and the NT is a "sure" guide to them, then please explain what you really mean by that. That Baha'is take those stories to be symbolic and not literally true. So, they are not "sure" guides until they are interpreted according to Baha'is beliefs, and their "true" symbolic meaning is revealed, and then they have some kind of "sure" guidance for a Baha'i.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Abdu'l-Baha's comment was made because he was pandering to Christians. On another occasion Abdu'l-Baha also said that Baha'is are Christians, which is completely false.
Baha'u'llah did not demonstrate great reverence for the Bible.
Addressing the Muslims, Baha’u’llah wrote:
“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89
the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures,
Baha'u'llah was referring to the New Testament, not to the entire Bible. The New Testament was the alleged testimony of Jesus and it was not written by Jesus. It came by way of oral tradition, through men who did not even know Jesus, and it has many errors. Logically speaking, if a book has errors there is no way it can be trusted to be true. Moreover, you cannot maintain Baha'i beliefs and also maintain that the NT is all true.
There was a reason why Baha'u'llah said what He said:
“Our purpose in relating these things is to warn you that were they to maintain that those verses wherein the signs referred to in the Gospel are mentioned have been perverted, were they to reject them, and cling instead to other verses and traditions, you should know that their words were utter falsehood and sheer calumny. Yea “corruption” of the text, in the sense We have referred to, hath been actually effected in particular instances.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 88
Baha'is are not obligated to have reverence for the Bible, that is a personal choice. I cannot have reverence for a book that has so many errors and contradictions. The resurrection stories alone are enough to question whether the writers were either deluded or outright deceptive. I cannot have reverence for a book that has falsehoods in it. For Abdu'l-Baha to try to turn the resurrection stories into something symbolic and say that is the real meaning when they were written and intended to be taken literally is dishonest an attempt to gloss over the fact that they were written to be taken literally and that what was written is false. I have to agree with @CG Didymus on this.
I agree that the Bible has a lot of spiritual guidance in it but it also has many errors which have misled Christians for thousands of years.
I consider this to be a travesty and it continues to this very day. Not only that, but the Bible is the primary reason why Christians have not recognized Baha'u'llah.
I go with what the Guardian said because he was a straight shooter, and he pandered to nobody.
From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:
...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)
...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)
When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)
We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)
We have no way of substantiating the stories of the Old Testament other than references to them in our own teachings, so we cannot say exactly what happened at the battle of Jericho.
(25 November 1950 to an individual believer)
Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
(31 January 1955 to an individual believer)
Bahá'í Library Online
Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Those verses are very good and I think they represent what Jesus actually taught, but sadly, that is not what Christianity teaches.
You said: How come no one talks about the 13 commandments Jesus gives as the way to Heaven?
No one talks about these because of the Christian doctrine that says that anyone who believes in Jesus is saved and forgiven by the blood of Jesus. We need not do anything else but 'believe in Jesus' and what He did for us on the cross to wipe away our sins order to get to Heaven.
No one talks about these because of what Paul said about the Law being not being necessary to get to Heaven.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Aug 9, 2014
In Romans and Galatians, what does Paul mean by “the works ...
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
As a Baha'i I believe that Matthew 5:17 to 7:12 offer sure spiritual guidance and there are a lot more verses that offer spiritual guidance.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
It wasn't such a "sure" guide to the writers of the NT. They took stories from the Bible and concluded that all people were born with a sin nature and were hopeless sinners. That there was no way for a person to ever be good enough to earn their way into heaven. Only... by accepting and believing that Jesus paid the penalty for your sins could a person be forgiven of their sins and made pure by the blood of Jesus to enter into heaven.
Later Christians later took stories from the Bible and tied them into their beliefs about Satan and hell. And they also took verses from the NT and declared that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were part of a God-head along with God, the Father. So, it wasn't much of a sure guide to the early Christian leaders considering that Baha'is believe that the Trinity is a false doctrine.
firedragon
Veteran Member
This question cannot really be answered by a Christian. It's an unfair question. You cannot ask this question based on taking away all foundations in the theology of Christianity.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Through my experience, the Bahai apologists do the most quote mining, and double standards. When inconvenient they will twist the Bible to mean "allegorical", and when convenient they will adopt certain verses they cherry picked. This is normal apologetics for most Bahai's.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Of course there are some verses in the Bible and the NT that can be called spiritual guidance. Here's some from Paul...
So yes, there are some spiritual teachings in the Bible and the NT that Baha'is could call "sure" spiritual guides, but are those kinds of teachings practical? Like turn the cheek every time someone slaps you? It goes on to say...
So, a "sure" guide? Yes, Baha'is, you should live by those teachings. And, by the way, do you think I could borrow some money? 100 thousand dollars should do... for now.
Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
But is a Baha'i going to listen and take to heart everything Paul said? And the Beatitudes are great, but who's going to live like that? Probably not very many. So, what is their practical purpose? Probably to get ignored and put on the back burner. And I knew some Christians that felt extremely guilty, because they couldn't live up to those kinds of teachings. And I think that leads some Christians to leading double lives. They're all "Holy" on Sunday or when they are with their Christian friends, but they're not so Holy the rest of the time. What good is that?So yes, there are some spiritual teachings in the Bible and the NT that Baha'is could call "sure" spiritual guides, but are those kinds of teachings practical? Like turn the cheek every time someone slaps you? It goes on to say...
Matthew 5:40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Yes, a very spiritual way to live, but not a good way to live in the "real" world.So, a "sure" guide? Yes, Baha'is, you should live by those teachings. And, by the way, do you think I could borrow some money? 100 thousand dollars should do... for now.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I was not asking Christians to answer the questions. I put them out for anyone who wanted to answer them.
But why would it be unfair if I asked a Christian to answer the questions?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is not a matter of practicality. Why would spirituality be practical?
Everyone is not going to be able to live up to these teachings, they are just something to shoot for.
If we did not have standards of behavior to shoot for we would have no spiritual guidance.
cataway
Well-Known Member
what difference does that make .is sounds like you all ready know every one gos to heaven
firedragon
Veteran Member
As I said already, "what if your theological foundations were all wrong" with out making an actual argument is a question in the air with no foundation. It's an unfair question. It's also not a responsible question.
Yet it's your prerogative. Cheers.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe everyone goes to heaven but I believe everyone goes to a spiritual world when they die and leave this world.
In the spiritual world they will be in heaven or hell, which is not a place but rather a state of the soul who is near or far from God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Again, I was not asking Christians, I was asking anyone who wanted to answer.
I was not looking to make an argument for or against those theological foundations. It was only a hypothetical what if scenario.
But what if these beliefs are not true?
Of course this is hypothetical since these are beliefs that cannot be proven either true or false.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I think you are having a dilemma on your own epistemology.
Any of these things can definitely be proven either true or false. Just that you need proof. You are just making a cliche statement that atheist evangelists make out of thin air with no responsibility whatsoever.
Seriously what has happened to you?
cataway
Well-Known Member
you dont know what hell is
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
The hypocrisy of wanting to put the Jewish and not Christ's commandments in schools is the end result.
That is why Abdul'baha was the "Servant of Baha", Abdul'baha was giving us the key to understanding all scriptures.Abdu'l-Baha's comment was made because he was pandering to Christians. On another occasion Abdu'l-Baha also said that Baha'is are Christians, which is completely false.
Baha'u'llah did not demonstrate great reverence for the Bible.
Addressing the Muslims, Baha’u’llah wrote:
“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89
the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures,
Baha'u'llah was referring to the New Testament, not to the entire Bible. The New Testament was the alleged testimony of Jesus and it was not written by Jesus. It came by way of oral tradition, through men who did not even know Jesus, and it has many errors. Logically speaking, if a book has errors there is no way it can be trusted to be true. Moreover, you cannot maintain Baha'i beliefs and also maintain that the NT is all true.
There was a reason why Baha'u'llah said what He said:
“Our purpose in relating these things is to warn you that were they to maintain that those verses wherein the signs referred to in the Gospel are mentioned have been perverted, were they to reject them, and cling instead to other verses and traditions, you should know that their words were utter falsehood and sheer calumny. Yea “corruption” of the text, in the sense We have referred to, hath been actually effected in particular instances.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 88
Baha'is are not obligated to have reverence for the Bible, that is a personal choice. I cannot have reverence for a book that has so many errors and contradictions. The resurrection stories alone are enough to question whether the writers were either deluded or outright deceptive. I cannot have reverence for a book that has falsehoods in it. For Abdu'l-Baha to try to turn the resurrection stories into something symbolic and say that is the real meaning when they were written and intended to be taken literally is dishonest an attempt to gloss over the fact that they were written to be taken literally and that what was written is false. I have to agree with @CG Didymus on this.
I agree that the Bible has a lot of spiritual guidance in it but it also has many errors which have misled Christians for thousands of years.
I consider this to be a travesty and it continues to this very day. Not only that, but the Bible is the primary reason why Christians have not recognized Baha'u'llah.
I go with what the Guardian said because he was a straight shooter, and he pandered to nobody.
From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:
...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)
...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)
When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)
We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)
We have no way of substantiating the stories of the Old Testament other than references to them in our own teachings, so we cannot say exactly what happened at the battle of Jericho.
(25 November 1950 to an individual believer)
Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
(31 January 1955 to an individual believer)
Bahá'í Library Online
Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materialswww.bahai-library.com
It is not about finding fault, it is about finding the Truth in the Word of God.
Shoghi Effendi was giving the Balance, showing us why the Bible was sure spiritual guidance, but also allowing Baha'i not to become so fanatical about it, that we hold on to every word and letter to prove exclusive opinions. Shoghi Effendi also said;
"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation...that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized,.."
(Shoghi Effendi, Promised Day Is Come, par. 269)
Also with quotes you must include every part of the reference and should not alter the reference.
Example two quotes above are (from a letter written to an individual on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, 11 February 1944)
We have been given the key to find all the Divine inspiration that the Bible contains and to share that inspiration, we also have the ability to cloud that inspiration with our own negative opinions.
There is a reason that these issues are not fully disclosed to us, God allows us to find our unity in our diversity. Somehow we all have to find our peace in the balance given by Baha'u'llah.
You offered above
Have you read that wrong? That's is Baha'u'llah showing great reverence for the Bible by confirming the Bible. Also it may be worth noting what Baha'u'llah has called the people that assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, this is what you are actually offering, and I see it is an incorrect action to take.
It's all about the balance, knowing the Bible is sure spiritual guidance, in the knowledge that not all the words are exactly correct.
As to how people interpreted the Bible in the past, not all took the stories literally, unfortunately a majority that wanted control over Christianity and the minds of men, did.
This is all given in the Bible and as such, it was indeed a sure spiritual guide to those that submitted to Christ and practiced Love, compassion, mercy and justice.
Regards Tony