What if these Christian beliefs are not true?

[firedragon]

That is proof to you and me or anyone who thinks logically but it is not proof to Christians.

Absolute truth is not subjective. You are contradicting yourself.

Unacceptance of proof does mean it's not proof.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is no cop out, it is something we can all find for our own selves.

Jesus used the Old Testament all the time to explain how it was applicable to the Word of God that Jesus was sharing.

Have at look at but one link offered by one Christian group.

The Savior’s Use of the Old Testament

The Savior’s Use of the Old Testament

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

The Message itself clarifies the Messages before, remembering that they are full of prophecies about the Messengers to come, they are full.of timeless Words, which have one and seventy and meanings

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

This is also the Word's capacity in all Scriptures.

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted."
Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

"All the texts and teachings of the holy Testaments have intrinsic spiritual meanings. They are not to be taken literally. I, therefore, pray in your behalf that you may be given the power of understanding these inner real meanings of the Holy Scriptures and may become informed of the mysteries deposited in the words of the Bible so that you may attain eternal life and that your hearts may be attracted to the Kingdom of God." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 459-460

One must Immerse themselves in the ocean of God's Word's that they may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths.

Regards Tony

That's an easy one. We all know how Christianity built itself on the foundation of the Hebrew Bible but had to reinterpret it in a way to make their religion the logical next step. But what were some of those interpretations?

That people inherited a sin nature or inherited "original" sin from Adam? Satan, hell and demons are a big part of Christian beliefs, they went back into the Bible to find any verses that helped support those beliefs. Then the resurrection... They found a verse that said God's holy one would not see corruption, that his flesh would not decay.

Baha'is don't believe that any of these are true. These are not "corrections" of Judaism, not if you, the Baha'is are correct. They are corruptions and false doctrines. Then some in Islam "corrected" the resurrection of Jesus by saying Jesus didn't die on the cross. But they believe he did ascend and is coming back?

Yes, there are a lot of things that the new religion "corrects" about the older religion. But are they corrections or just a new belief that is just as wrong as the old belief?

But going from one Abrahamic religion to the next is way too easy. Show me how which ever Abrahamic religion followed the message from Krishna corrected the mistakes in those Hindu beliefs? Then after the Buddha came and taught his message, which Abrahamic religion did he correct? And then which Abrahamic religion came after Buddhism and corrected the mistakes in Buddhism?

It is just Baha'i talk. Let's hear some proof of what you are claiming.

 

[CG Didymus]

"All the texts and teachings of the holy Testaments have intrinsic spiritual meanings. They are not to be taken literally.

But does that include historical narratives? Does it include the laws?

Actually, I'm fine with taking a story like David and Goliath as a fictional story. Or the story when the walls of Jericho fell down and the Israelite army went in and killed all the people, including woman and children. And those laws? No, can't take them literally. Killing people for breaking the Sabbath? And it could be for something as small as collecting firewood? That's got to be symbolic.

Or, like in the gospels, when it says that Jesus walked on water. Or like when the gospels have Jesus saying all those things about the meek shall inherit the Earth and to love thy neighbor. Obviously, all those things can't be taken literally.

Of course they have spiritual meaning, duh. But if the historical stories are fiction, then what are we looking at? I'd call it myth. Religious myth that has some kind of spiritual truth for the people. But who wrote this stuff? We all know it was people. Can we trust them for knowing the truth and telling the truth? No. But the followers are told they can trust it. And they are told to trust is as the literal truth. And that the stories came from God.

So, what do we have? A bunch of stories that contradict what the Baha'i Faith says is true. Now what would be a good way to resolve the contradictions? Hmmm? Maybe to say those stories aren't literally true but have some "intrinsic" spiritual message.

And of course, we can trust the Baha'i Faith as being literal true in everything it says.

Baha'is are not going to win any of these arguments. Everybody with a religion or without a religion has a good argument. For Baha'is or people in any religion, the best thing you can do is live your religion. If you believe in loving all people and showing them kindness and respect, then do it. I still believe that if the Baha'i Faith is the truth, its people have to be the ones that humble themselves and find ways to build bridges that help bring peace and unity to the world.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you can prove Jesus was a human being, he cannot be God. That's how you could prove something.

Maybe your faith is just faith, mine is not so we are speaking from different stances. That ends the conversation. It's useless.

The Baha'is have a similar problem. Although they don't make Baha'u'llah God, they do make him part human part divine. They make him a Manifestation of God. I don't know what Muslims believe about Muhammad, but for a Baha'i, he too was a Manifestation of God.

My criticism of that belief is that I don't see how they can say that about Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. Jews don't make them into anything like a Manifestation. Moses would be the closest. Another problem I have is that Baha'u'llah didn't mention Krishna, and I don't think he mentioned Buddha either. They were added in later.

But I don't know. I'm just guessing. It seems like in Islam there are two levels of prophet. Is this similar to the Baha'i concept of a Manifestation?

Bahá’u’lláh explained that the Divine Will of God does sometimes choose ordinary people as “prophets” and inspires them to play certain roles in human affairs. Examples include the Hebrew prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Still others have been inspired as “seers” or “saints.” Not even the prophets, however, are anywhere close to the station of the Manifestations, Who provide humankind with God’s infallible revelation. The prophets are still ordinary men and women whose powers of inspiration have been developed and used by God. They are referred to as “minor prophets” or “dependent prophets” in the Bahá’í writings. When this terminology is used, the Manifestations are called “universal” or “independent” Prophets:​

​

Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets who are followed; the other kind are not independent, and are themselves followers. The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle….​

 

[firedragon]

The Baha'is have a similar problem. Although they don't make Baha'u'llah God, they do make him part human part divine. They make him a Manifestation of God. I don't know what Muslims believe about Muhammad, but for a Baha'i, he too was a Manifestation of God.

There was a day I was discussing with a Bahai on this very forum. He was talking about "manifestation" and I said that there is nowhere in the Qur'an it's mentioned Muhammed was a manifestation of God.

He googled manifestation, and found that the word in Arabic is "Zahara" and just cut and pasted it. It's irrelevant. It's a strawman. This is their tactic.

It's very clear from the Qur'an that God is one and there are none of these manifestations of God on earth. It was such bad apologetics.

But I don't know. I'm just guessing. It seems like in Islam there are two levels of prophet. Is this similar to the Baha'i concept of a Manifestation?

In the Qur'an, there are indeed levels of prophethood. BUT it's not for us to judge. We told that we do not make distinction between prophets. And there is absolutely no concept of manifestations of God. Zilch. The Bahai's are making it up on the go.

You don't have to be a Muslim or a Qur'an believer to make an internal critique.

But in all honesty, I have never seen people making things up like the Bahai's do and some cut and paste from some obscure source so dishonestly it's an utter headache to engage. So much of fallaciousness it's unbelievable. So much so that some teach Arabic without having kindergarten level of knowledge on the language. It's better to block them. It helps with your blood pressure.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In the Qur'an, there are indeed levels of prophethood. BUT it's not for us to judge. We told that we do not make distinction between prophets. And there is absolutely no concept of manifestations of God. Zilch. The Bahai's are making it up on the go.

The Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah is the foundation of the Baha'is source of knowledge on all the Prophets and of the Oneness of God, and you are well aware of this book and well aware Baha'u'llah also says not to make a distinction between the prophets. @CG Didymus

Manifestation of God is introduced in Baha'i Writings, the word Manifestation includes all the God given Apostles, Prophets and Messengers ot defines the "Word Christ", it gives a greater meaning as to what it is to be an "Annointed One".

Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, who was Annointed by God to give a Message now known as the Quran.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God, who was "Christ", "Annointed" to give humanity a Message known as the New Testament.

This can be said for all the Old Testament Prophets, it can be said for all the Eastern Manifestations as well.

Logically the Baha'i make less distinction between the Prophets as a result of what Baha'u'llah offered, we see them as all "One" in God.

Regards Tony

 

[cataway]

Neither do you. Nobody knows what hell is unless they have been there and that's a heck of a way to find out.
I was only offering my belief, that's not knowledge.

acttully,,'' the word “hell” is translated from the Hebrew word sheolʹ. This word occurs 65 times in all. The King James Version of the Bible, however, translates sheolʹ 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version of the Bible translates sheolʹ as “hell” 63 times and as “pit” once and as “death” once. In the Christian Greek Scriptures the word “hell” is sometimes translated from the Greek word hádes. Both the King James and Douay versions translate hádes as “hell” in each of its ten occurrences.'' ...sooooo, yes I know what and where hell is

 

[Trailblazer]

It is no cop out, it is something we can all find for our own selves.

Jesus used the Old Testament all the time to explain how it was applicable to the Word of God that Jesus was sharing.

Have at look at but one link offered by one Christian group.

The Savior’s Use of the Old Testament

The Savior’s Use of the Old Testament

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

The Message itself clarifies the Messages before, remembering that they are full of prophecies about the Messengers to come, they are full.of timeless Words, which have one and seventy and meanings

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

This is also the Word's capacity in all Scriptures.

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted."
Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

"All the texts and teachings of the holy Testaments have intrinsic spiritual meanings. They are not to be taken literally. I, therefore, pray in your behalf that you may be given the power of understanding these inner real meanings of the Holy Scriptures and may become informed of the mysteries deposited in the words of the Bible so that you may attain eternal life and that your hearts may be attracted to the Kingdom of God." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 459-460

One must Immerse themselves in the ocean of God's Word's that they may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths.

Regards Tony

You are correct in saying that Jesus used to Old Testament to clarify misunderstandings but what @CG Didymus asked you to show him was how each manifestation clarifies the misunderstandings from the previous one.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This is because he is the Messiah. If he was killed, it would make his claims to be the Messiah false.

The Jews would disagree.

only God can forgive sin.

That's not correct. I can and I bet that you can, too. But only this god cannot tolerate sin, something I can also do, and probably you as well.

The Messengers are more than a man, they are Annointed of the Holy Spirit, the remainder of humanity is born of the human spirit.

There is no reason to believe that.

The following list contains some beliefs that are central to Christianity.

1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus is the only way to God
3) Jesus rose from the dead
4) Jesus is going to return to earth

But what if these beliefs are not true?

That's easy: If they're not true, then people who believe them have a false belief.

Believing 4 is true makes the believers complacent.

The whole religion does that. It removes accountability paradoxically by inventing accountability after death. How many people say that they answer only to their god and not man? How many Christians think that their "sin" has been washed away? How many believe that with that second coming, the earth will be destroyed in fiery apocalypse, and that this will be soon? That's all complacency.

what if all Christians realized that Jesus is never going to return to earth?

I doubt that that belief would matter at all, nor that you can make a faith-based believer believe that. As long as they get an afterlife in paradise, nothing else matters.

However, this post is based on the assumption that the above list of beliefs are false. If that is the case, I have two questions:

- Could Christianity still be a true religion from God?

What does true mean to you if its teachings are false but you ask if the religion can still be true?

- How would that change Christianity now and in the future?

Not at all. Christianity is based in choosing to believe something absent sufficient evidence and often in the face of contradictory evidence. Facts don't change any of that.

The spirit of Jesus never left but the body of Jesus left. it is only the body that is killed, not the person, since the person is a soul.

What if THAT belief is not true? Would anything change for you?

Baha'u'llah was a man but He was more than a man, just like Jesus was more than a man. They both had a twofold nature, one human, the other divine.

That doesn't mean anything to me. It sounds like poetry.

You are trying to make this earth life paradise but it was never intended to be paradise.

That was my goal as well, and I'm satisfied with the outcome. Your life as you describe it seems pretty safe and comfortable as well, but you also say that you are not happy despite your freedom, economic security, living where you choose to live, and being surrounded your cats.

By the way, did you find Vance's comment about childless cat ladies offensive? I did.

Sharing our beliefs which differ from some Christian beliefs is not tearing down anyone else's beliefs, it is only being HONEST about what we believe. When a Christian disagrees and says a Baha'i is wrong, which happens all the time, you never point that out so there is definitely a double standard. It is okay for Christians to present their beliefs and disagree with Baha'i beliefs but it is not okay for a Baha'is to present their beliefs and disagree with Christians beliefs.

Are you surprised?

Oh ok, back to the giant conspiracy wherein a bunch of common Jewish fisherman and such left their sacred religion and cultural identity, their wealth and families, created a fake story for free so they would be shunned and killed!

People do stupid things in the name of faith. There were a lot of dead bodies at Jonestown, Waco, and the Heaven's Gate compound.

Similar to Islam and even Judaism they can't bring themselves to flat out deny all of the Jesus story, so they take just enough to give their prophets legitimacy.

I'm an atheistic humanist and don't deny all of the Jesus story either - just the magic and most of what he is alleged to have said about himself.

 

[Trailblazer]

acttully,,'' the word “hell” is translated from the Hebrew word sheolʹ. This word occurs 65 times in all. The King James Version of the Bible, however, translates sheolʹ 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version of the Bible translates sheolʹ as “hell” 63 times and as “pit” once and as “death” once. In the Christian Greek Scriptures the word “hell” is sometimes translated from the Greek word hádes. Both the King James and Douay versions translate hádes as “hell” in each of its ten occurrences.'' ...sooooo, yes I know what and where hell is

I just love how some Christians commandeer the Old Testament to try to back up their beliefs.

The New Testament is the testament of Jesus. The New Testament clarified and corrected many of the misunderstandings and errors that are in the Old Testament.... There is a reason why it is called the Old Testament, because it is Old.

When you move to a new house you no longer live in the old house. You have to choose what you are going to believe, Jewish scriptures or Christian scriptures. In Christianity hell is not the grave.

That's actually the Hebrew word Sheol, which occurs 66 times in the OT, 19 of those times it is translated “hell” in the King James and New King James, the other 47 times it is translated “grave” or “pit.” The word means grave, or place of the dead. The concept of eternal punishment is not in the word Sheol.Mar 25, 2018
Finding Hell in the Old Testament

In Christian theology, Hell is the place or state into which, by God's definitive judgment, unrepentant sinners pass in the general judgment, or, as some Christians believe, immediately after death (particular judgment).
Hell in Christianity - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Absolute truth is not subjective. You are contradicting yourself.

No it isn't, but I was not talking about truth, I was talking about proof.

Unacceptance of proof does mean it's not proof.

That is true, but what is proof to you and me is not necessarily proof to Christians or to anyone else.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's easy: If they're not true, then people who believe them have a false belief.

That's what I believe to be the case. The ramifications of that are mind boggling considering how many Christians there are in this world.

The whole religion does that. It removes accountability paradoxically by inventing accountability after death. How many people say that they answer only to their god and not man? How many Christians think that their "sin" has been washed away? How many believe that with that second coming, the earth will be destroyed in fiery apocalypse, and that this will be soon? That's all complacency.

Yes, the whole religion leads to complacency since it removes accountability. All one has to do is believe that Jesus died for you and washed away your sins. So if Jesus did that Christians should be good to go. Why does Jesus need to come back to earth? Oh, I almost forgot the resurrection. Jesus needs to come back to raise them from their graves. With these kinds of beliefs it is no small wonder that the number of Christians in the United States has dropped by 12% in the last decade.

I doubt that that belief would matter at all, nor that you can make a faith-based believer believe that. As long as they get an afterlife in paradise, nothing else matters.

That's true, getting to heaven is all that matters, but unless Jesus comes back to judge them and resurrect them they cannot go to heaven, or so they believe. So you see, these beliefs 1-4 from my OP are all connected.

What does true mean to you if its teachings are false but you ask if the religion can still be true?

It means that if the central beliefs of Christianity (1-4) are false then Christianity as believed is also false.
However, Christianity could still be a 'true religion' from God if Jesus was who he claimed to be and the New Testament reflects his teachings.

Not at all. Christianity is based in choosing to believe something absent sufficient evidence and often in the face of contradictory evidence. Facts don't change any of that.

The OP is based upon the assumption that Christians realized that their beliefs (1-4) in the OP are not true, so they no longer believed they are true.
- How would that change Christianity now and in the future?

What if THAT belief is not true? Would anything change for you?

"The spirit of Jesus never left but the body of Jesus left. it is only the body that is killed, not the person, since the person is a soul."

As a religious belief it is not a fact so it cannot be proven to be either true or false.
If that belief could be proven to be false I would no longer believe it is true.
If that belief could be proven to be true would anything change for you?

That doesn't mean anything to me. It sounds like poetry.

It means what I said, and in context it makes sense, if we realize that Jesus was not God but Jesus was more than a man.
If Christians could understand the twofold nature of Jesus then they would not have to believe that Jesus is God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

That was my goal as well, and I'm satisfied with the outcome. Your life as you describe it seems pretty safe and comfortable as well, but you also say that you are not happy despite your freedom, economic security, living where you choose to live, and being surrounded your cats.

Being safe and comfortable and well-off financially is not all there is to life. With no partner I still feel like there is something important missing.
God and religion is not going to fill that hole even though that is what fellow Baha'is seem to expect.

Sometimes I wish I could choose a different life but that is easier said than done. Suffice to say I believe that free will is very circumscribed.

By the way, did you find Vance's comment about childless cat ladies offensive? I did.

I never saw that comment. Can you link me to the post?

Are you surprised?

No, I am not surprised because this double-standard for Baha'is has been going on for years.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are correct in saying that Jesus used to Old Testament to clarify misunderstandings but what @CG Didymus asked you to show him was how each manifestation clarifies the misunderstandings from the previous one.

I work full time and also have home duties Trailblazer, if CG is interested, CG is more than capable of doing that.

He could take the next step with Muhammad, we know Muhammad quoted and clarified Biblical understanding.

As for the rest, it is all about finding that connection, reincarnation is an example, which is a teaching most likely formed by men from the Word given by earlier manifestations. Passages in later scriptures show us that this life is temporal that it is a womb to be born into other world of God, not a place we revisit over amd over like ground hog day. We get but one chance to be born from this matrix in a state relative to our chosen capacity to know and love God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I work full time and also have home duties Trailblazer, if CG is interested, CG is more than capable of doing that.

I also work full time and have home duties, lots of home duties, so I know all to well what that is like!

 

[danieldemol]

I think you are having a dilemma on your own epistemology.

Any of these things can definitely be proven either true or false. Just that you need proof. You are just making a cliche statement that atheist evangelists make out of thin air with no responsibility whatsoever.

Seriously what has happened to you?

Way to take a dig at atheist evangelists just because a believer says something you don't like in my view.

 

[YoursTrue]

That is proof to you and me or anyone who thinks logically but it is not proof to Christians.

Just to be clear, not ALL those who believe in Christ as the Messiah and divine son of God believe he is/was God as some might (mis)understand it, God-in-the-flesh, or equal to the other 2 said godpersons. Just to clarify.

 

[firedragon]

No it isn't, but I was not talking about truth, I was talking about proof.

That is true, but what is proof to you and me is not necessarily proof to Christians or to anyone else.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

Way to take a dig at atheist evangelists just because a believer says something you don't like in my view.

Some cheap ad hominem. Grow up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Any of these things can definitely be proven either true or false. Just that you need proof.

No, they cannot be proven true or false. If they could be proven true or false they would be facts, not beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just to be clear, not ALL those who believe in Christ as the Messiah and divine son of God believe he is/was God

Yes, I know that, but thanks for clarifying.