What if these Christian beliefs are not true?

[Link]

No, they cannot be proven true or false. If they could be proven true or false they would be facts, not beliefs.

I think you guys are talking past each other.

Is the truth of religion provable? Yes. Is it proven to the degree as other things we know about nature? No.

It's as Quran says, it's for who wants to remember to remember.

God is both manifest and hidden. His proof is both manifest to the degree he pleases and hidden to the degree he pleases. As miracles are no longer in the open and much of Quran is about philosophy of being humble to miracles and accepting, we can say, the manifestation of the proof in this age is more hidden then it was when miracles were in the open for example during the reign of Sulaiman (a).

But we all have the same right Ibrahim (a) has when asking to show how God revives the dead. We have a right to miracles. If we turn to God often, promise him truthfully we won't reject miracles and not accuse the guide of being a sorcerer or rather possessed when shown miracles, but accept them as signs and proofs, then there is no reason for God to hide the proof from us. Rather he has promised guidance to such people in regards to miracles.

Of course miracles are a proof, but they can be denied and imagined to be magic and sorcery by a heart averse to the truth and wanting to run away from the guide performing them.

Even Musa (a) first ran in fear.

The only time truth can't be denied per Quran is on the day of judgment. There will be eight type of proofs/signs offered by God's forces, and the authority of God will be proven beyond doubt on that day.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Any of these things can definitely be proven either true or false.

You can't prove or disprove any of them.

If you can prove Jesus was a human being, he cannot be God. That's how you could prove something.

But you didn't do that and can't.

Seriously what has happened to you?

You first. Look at your posting above.

Some cheap ad hominem. Grow up.

Same answer. You first (see the following comment of yours)

You are just making a cliche statement that atheist evangelists make out of thin air with no responsibility whatsoever.

She and we atheists are correct. You can neither prove nor disprove any of it.

Way to take a dig at atheist evangelists just because a believer says something you don't like in my view.

He's a typical insecure theist and atheophobe:

"I always flinch in embarrassment for the believer who trots out, 'Atheism is just another kind of faith,' because it's a tacit admission that taking claims on faith is a silly thing to do. When you've succumbed to arguing that the opposition is just as misguided as you are, it's time to take a step back and rethink your attitudes." - Amanda Marcotte

If that belief could be proven to be true would anything change for you?

That souls exist? No. What would you suggest I do differently? Start praying? To what, and why?

It means what I said, and in context it makes sense, if we realize that Jesus was not God but Jesus was more than a man.

By that reckoning, Jesus was neither. That's not a dual nature. You're not a god, but you're more than a fish. Shall we call that a dual nature, too?

Being safe and comfortable and well-off financially is not all there is to life.

You mentioned companionship. You can have that, but you've indicated that it needs to be with another Baha'i. If so, and if that's not a realistic option for you given where you live, then your religious beliefs are a barrier to you finding happiness.

I have safety, comfort, and financial security as well. I also have a loving wife with whom I enjoy spending time and doing things, but if I lost her, I would either adapt to being alone or find somebody to spend time with. My only requirements are that she be a decent person, even temperament, clean, a nonsmoker with no other addictions or compulsions like gambling and hoarding, that she be compatible with my dogs, that she not be suspicious or try to control me, and that if she were a theist or a conservative that she be so privately.

I never saw that comment. Can you link me to the post?

There are many articles on the Internet about it. From JD Vance doubles down on 'childless cat ladies' dig: 'I've got nothing against cats'

"Sen. JD Vance, the Republican nominee for vice president, is doubling down on remarks he made in 2021 about "childless cat ladies" running the country that sparked backlash this week. Vance told SiriusXM's "The Megyn Kelly Show" in an interview that aired Friday: “Obviously, it was a sarcastic comment. I’ve got nothing against cats" and then blamed the media for "focusing so much on the sarcasm and not on the substance of what I actually said.” Vance made the remarks in 2021 on Tucker Carlson's Fox News show, referring to Vice President Kamala Harris, now the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, as one of the “childless cat ladies” running the nation who “want to make the rest of the country miserable too." The Ohio Republican added, "If you look at Kamala Harris, Pete Buttigieg, AOC [Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez], the entire future of the Democrats is controlled by people without children."

This comment is reverberating across the nation now, along with his desire to send the police after people going out of state to get an abortion, equating Trump with Hitler in the past, and writing the forward to the upcoming Project 2025 book.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't prove or disprove any of them.

She and we atheists are correct. You can neither prove nor disprove any of it.

Correct.

That souls exist? No. What would you suggest I do differently? Start praying? To what, and why?

I said: If that belief could be proven to be true would anything change for you?
In other words, if you knew that the soul is the person (which would mean that the body is not the person) would anything change for you?

I didn't suggest that you do anything differently. You'd have to have a reason to believe in the soul, and you don't have a reason.
Unless you want to believe in the soul why would you start praying?

By that reckoning, Jesus was neither. That's not a dual nature. You're not a god, but you're more than a fish. Shall we call that a dual nature, too?

By my reckoning, Jesus was a Manifestation of God who was 'both' divine and human, so he had a dual nature, one nature human, the other nature divine.

Jesus was a man, but he was more than an ordinary man, because an ordinary man does not have a divine nature. Only Manifestations of God have both a divine and human nature.

You mentioned companionship. You can have that, but you've indicated that it needs to be with another Baha'i. If so, and if that's not a realistic option for you given where you live, then your religious beliefs are a barrier to you finding happiness.

I forgot when we last discussed this, but companionship or marriage certainly would not have to be with another Baha'i. I won't even say that would be preferable. There would be pros and cons of marrying a Baha'i again. Just because my late husband was a Baha'i that doesn't mean I could ever find another Baha'i with whom I am compatible. Compatible personalities and lifestyles are much more important than religion, although I would not want to marry a man who was averse to my religion because that would cause disharmony. I might be compatible with a liberal Christian but I don't think I could marry a Christian if he held the beliefs 1-4 from the OP. I could see myself married to a Buddhist or an agnostic.

I have safety, comfort, and financial security as well. I also have a loving wife with whom I enjoy spending time and doing things, but if I lost her, I would either adapt to being alone or find somebody to spend time with. My only requirements are that she be a decent person, even temperament, clean, a nonsmoker with no other addictions or compulsions like gambling and hoarding, that she be compatible with my dogs, that she not be suspicious or try to control me, and that if she were a theist or a conservative that she be so privately.

That is what most widowed people do, either adapt to being alone or find somebody to spend time with. My requirements are that I am physically attracted to a man, especially if he wants sex, that our personalities and lifestyles are compatible, that he is a nonsmoker with no other addictions or compulsions like gambling and hoarding, that he be compatible with my cats, that he not be suspicious or try to control me, and that if he were a theist or an atheist that he did not try to convert me to his beliefs or non-beliefs. My late husband met all those requirements although he smoked for the first 10 years we were married, he had so many other good qualities that I was able to live with that. I was used to it since my mother had been a smoker and I lived with her for most of my adult life before I got married.

There are many articles on the Internet about it. From JD Vance doubles down on 'childless cat ladies' dig: 'I've got nothing against cats'

"Sen. JD Vance, the Republican nominee for vice president, is doubling down on remarks he made in 2021 about "childless cat ladies" running the country that sparked backlash this week. Vance told SiriusXM's "The Megyn Kelly Show" in an interview that aired Friday: “Obviously, it was a sarcastic comment. I’ve got nothing against cats" and then blamed the media for "focusing so much on the sarcasm and not on the substance of what I actually said.” Vance made the remarks in 2021 on Tucker Carlson's Fox News show, referring to Vice President Kamala Harris, now the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, as one of the “childless cat ladies” running the nation who “want to make the rest of the country miserable too." The Ohio Republican added, "If you look at Kamala Harris, Pete Buttigieg, AOC [Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez], the entire future of the Democrats is controlled by people without children."

This comment is reverberating across the nation now, along with his desire to send the police after people going out of state to get an abortion, equating Trump with Hitler in the past, and writing the forward to the upcoming Project 2025 book.

I have not been following the news so I did not see any of that. I get my news about politics from my good friend @Truthseeker. I was glad to hear that Biden dropped out and Harris stepped in because Biden is too old to be president, but Trump is also too old. The best thing that could happen to this country is Harris getting elected, the worst thing that could happen is Trump getting elected. The fact that Trump has so many supporters tells us the state America is in right now. If I did not have faith in America's spiritual destiny I would be worried.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The only time truth can't be denied per Quran is on the day of judgment.

In Baha'i Scriptures, the only time truth cannot be denied, is when a person took the last breath.

" Know thou that the souls of the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise......

The souls of the infidels, however, shall—and to this I bear witness—when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies."

- Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

In Baha'i Scriptures, the only time truth cannot be denied, is when a person took the last breath.

I guess you mean the only time truth cannot be denied, is after a person took the last breath. I can be a stickler for details.

“He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

 

[CG Didymus]

There was a day I was discussing with a Bahai on this very forum. He was talking about "manifestation" and I said that there is nowhere in the Qur'an it's mentioned Muhammed was a manifestation of God.

He googled manifestation, and found that the word in Arabic is "Zahara" and just cut and pasted it. It's irrelevant. It's a strawman. This is their tactic.

It's very clear from the Qur'an that God is one and there are none of these manifestations of God on earth. It was such bad apologetics.


In the Qur'an, there are indeed levels of prophethood. BUT it's not for us to judge. We told that we do not make distinction between prophets. And there is absolutely no concept of manifestations of God. Zilch. The Bahai's are making it up on the go.

You don't have to be a Muslim or a Qur'an believer to make an internal critique.

But in all honesty, I have never seen people making things up like the Bahai's do and some cut and paste from some obscure source so dishonestly it's an utter headache to engage. So much of fallaciousness it's unbelievable. So much so that some teach Arabic without having kindergarten level of knowledge on the language. It's better to block them. It helps with your blood pressure.

Thank you so much for your comments. You are someone I've come to respect for their knowledge and honesty.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus was a Manifestation of God, who was "Christ", "Annointed" to give humanity a Message known as the New Testament.

A message he didn't write. And according to Baha'is has lots of misinformation.

I work full time and also have home duties Trailblazer, if CG is interested, CG is more than capable of doing that.

You made the claim. I don't believe your claim is true. And if you can't support it, then don't say it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A message he didn't write. And according to Baha'is has lots of misinformation.

You made the claim. I don't believe your claim is true. And if you can't support it, then don't say it.

Time to use your boots for walking CG. I say that, only as I see it is in your best interests to do so, as getting it 2nd hand from me is progressively erroneous.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

But you didn't do that and can't.

Irrelevant to the point being made. I presume you understand logic.

 

[firedragon]

Thank you so much for your comments. You are someone I've come to respect for their knowledge and honesty.

Honored brother.

 

[Link]

In Baha'i Scriptures, the only time truth cannot be denied, is when a person took the last breath.

" Know thou that the souls of the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise......

The souls of the infidels, however, shall—and to this I bear witness—when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies."

- Baha'u'llah

Disbelievers may initially regret, but they won't be able to perceive the truth. They will see Angels as evil and Satanic comforters from human and Jinn to to be good. The dead disbelieving souls, Satan today is their master. They obey him and follow his orders like Satanic jinn.

When Angels punish them, it won't be that level of intensity, that it will be when they enter hell.

If it was not so, Jinn would not doubt. But some Jinn doubt God even though deep inside they all know they will be raised and are being arrogant like Pharaoh was arrogant toward signs.

They doubt the order of things, and are like Gnostics who deny the order is controlled by the right forces.

God hides the day of judgment and it's proof till that moment it will be when God is in full control, so Jinn and humans earn what they strive for.

 

[cataway]

In Christian theology, Hell is the place or state into which, by God's definitive judgment, unrepentant sinners pass in the general judgment, or, as some Christians believe, immediately after death (particular judgment).
Hell in Christianity - Wikipedia

you speak of false Christian beliefs . its well known and for told there would be deviations from the truth .
you should know there is no judgment after death . death was in fact the judgment given for sin.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's an easy one. We all know how Christianity built itself on the foundation of the Hebrew Bible but had to reinterpret it in a way to make their religion the logical next step. But what were some of those interpretations?

That people inherited a sin nature or inherited "original" sin from Adam? Satan, hell and demons are a big part of Christian beliefs, they went back into the Bible to find any verses that helped support those beliefs. Then the resurrection... They found a verse that said God's holy one would not see corruption, that his flesh would not decay.

Baha'is don't believe that any of these are true. These are not "corrections" of Judaism, not if you, the Baha'is are correct. They are corruptions and false doctrines. Then some in Islam "corrected" the resurrection of Jesus by saying Jesus didn't die on the cross. But they believe he did ascend and is coming back?

Yes, there are a lot of things that the new religion "corrects" about the older religion. But are they corrections or just a new belief that is just as wrong as the old belief?

But going from one Abrahamic religion to the next is way too easy. Show me how which ever Abrahamic religion followed the message from Krishna corrected the mistakes in those Hindu beliefs? Then after the Buddha came and taught his message, which Abrahamic religion did he correct? And then which Abrahamic religion came after Buddhism and corrected the mistakes in Buddhism?

It is just Baha'i talk. Let's hear some proof of what you are claiming.

Hi CG. How are you doing? I always enjoy reading your posts because you mostly ask very reasonable questions and get us all thinking. I learn so much from you and many here but I’m afraid I will never know everything even in a thousand lifetimes but it’s fun sharing and comparing notes.

About the concept of original or mortal sin. My understanding is that the Bible says that man was born in God’s image so if he was born a sinner then that would mean God is a sinner too so I think that has been misunderstood and that we are all born sin free but that we learn bad habits.

Spiritually all the religions complement one another. Let’s see. Hinduism teaches ahimsa which is non violence. What did Christ teach? Love one another even our enemies and to forgive them. So to me that is just ahimsa but in different words.

As far as corrections I think that religionists do get carried away with man made dogma and drift away from the original message so we need to be spiritually revived. The essence all religions are things like peace, love, unity, etc When we descend into violence and wars then we need renewal. All the teachings were right but people have added so much dogma that the original message of love and peace has been lost.

its not the religion that gets corrected but people’s misconceptions and accumulated doctrines and dogmas that were never initially taught. Christ taught humility when He washed the feet of His disciples but now a lot of what we hear is full of pride and ego. So a revival is needed.

 

[Link]

Hi CG. How are you doing? I always enjoy reading your posts because you mostly ask very reasonable questions and get us all thinking. I learn so much from you and many here but I’m afraid I will never know everything even in a thousand lifetimes but it’s fun sharing and comparing notes.

About the concept of original or mortal sin. My understanding is that the Bible says that man was born in God’s image so if he was born a sinner then that would mean God is a sinner too so I think that has been misunderstood and that we are all born sin free but that we learn bad habits.

Spiritually all the religions complement one another. Let’s see. Hinduism teaches ahimsa which is non violence. What did Christ teach? Love one another even our enemies and to forgive them. So to me that is just ahimsa but in different words.

As far as corrections I think that religionists do get carried away with man made dogma and drift away from the original message so we need to be spiritually revived. The essence all religions are things like peace, love, unity, etc When we descend into violence and wars then we need renewal. All the teachings were right but people have added so much dogma that the original message of love and peace has been lost.

its not the religion that gets corrected but people’s misconceptions and accumulated doctrines and dogmas that were never initially taught. Christ taught humility when He washed the feet of His disciples but now a lot of what we hear is full of pride and ego. So a revival is needed.

Salam

You should study realism. I think a lot of people get into prosperity, unity talks, and other things. I think realism is a reality though. Quran should be understood in lenses of realism as there are many verses that hint to this being a true theory in politics.

It's good to hold on to ideals, but it's good to be realistic and acknowledge the reality of the situations. Power dynamics. Few ruling majority, corruption, and wars.

I think Bahai plan to world peace is impossible because of this theory. I think the prayers by Imams (a) regarding Imam Mahdi (a) showing it will be by outward domination and war against the leaders of disbelief is realistic. Yours might sound more peaceful and ideal, but the prayers taught by Imams (a) are more in line with reality of humans and situations we find ourselves in.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Salam

You should study realism. I think a lot of people get into prosperity, unity talks, and other things. I think realism is a reality though. Quran should be understood in lenses of realism as there are many verses that hint to this being a true theory in politics.

It's good to hold on to ideals, but it's good to be realistic and acknowledge the reality of the situations. Power dynamics. Few ruling majority, corruption, and wars.

Salam.

Link I believe we are all brothers and sisters except we listen too much to the divisive voices that want to keep us apart. I always keep a Quran by my bedside because I believe it is the Holy Word of God.

 

[Link]

Salam.

Link I believe we are all brothers and sisters except we listen too much to the divisive voices that want to keep us apart. I always keep a Quran by my bedside because I believe it is the Holy Word of God.

Salam

There is what you believe then there is reality of evil entities from human and Jinn planning, and you shouldn't underestimate the chaos that will happen without resistance.

This is a problem that you guys don't acknowledge Satan nor his Kahen sorcerers (Gog) nor their followers (Magog), and don't acknowledge the major role the Taghut (sorcerer Satan has chosen from humans) and Jibt (same meaning, but different dialect more emphasis with sorcerer part) plays in politics.

The two sorcerers that ruined Islam were not normal people at all. They knew what to say to blind people to Quran and forbid writing of hadiths and burned the hadiths and Uthman forbid commentary in Quran and burned all those for a reason.

Realism combined with what Quran says about the freemasons (most of Bani-Israel followed that sorcery attributed to Solomon (a) which today is the key of Solomon which is believed by freemasons) should make you realize the battle between good and evil, is not simply, telling everyone let's get along.

The reality is believers are holding on to dear life - but it is as Rasool (s) said "let Iblis and his armies come".

The Mahdi (a) is said to fight for a reason. It's a realistic theory. He will dominate the lands, and there will be no army except he destroys and no power except he brings down.

This also confirmed in the Quran when it says that Gog and Magog will descend from every high place.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Salam

There is what you believe then there is reality of evil entities from human and Jinn planning, and you shouldn't underestimate the chaos that will happen without resistance.

This is a problem that you guys don't acknowledge Satan nor his Kahen sorcerers (Gog) nor their followers (Magog), and don't acknowledge the major role the Taghut (sorcerer Satan has chosen from humans) and Jibt (same meaning, but different dialect more emphasis with sorcerer part) plays in politics.

The two sorcerers that ruined Islam were not normal people at all. They knew what to say to blind people to Quran and forbid writing of hadiths and burned the hadiths and Uthman forbid commentary in Quran and burned all those for a reason.

Realism combined with what Quran says about the freemasons (most of Bani-Israel followed that sorcery attributed to Solomon (a) which today is the key of Solomon which is believed by freemasons) should make you realize the battle between good and evil, is not simply, telling everyone let's get along.

The reality is believers are holding on to dear life - but it is as Rasool (s) said "let Iblis and his armies come".

The Mahdi (a) is said to fight for a reason. It's a realistic theory. He will dominate the lands, and there will be no army except he destroys and no power except he brings down.

This also confirmed in the Quran when it says that Gog and Magog will descend from every high place.

We believe in Satan but the Satan of self not a mythical creature. And also we believe we must fight evil with armies but armies of light as only light can vanquish darkness. Not forgetting that darkness is merely the absence of light with no real existence of itself.

Baha’u’llah says we must unite as does the Quran 61:4

Lo! Allah loveth them who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure.

But what kind of a battle do we fight? Knives, guns, bombs, nuclear missiles? This is the Baha’i interpretation of the meaning of battle in Sura 61:4

“O ye beloved of the Lord! This day is the day of union, the day of the ingathering of all mankind. 'Verily God loveth those who, as though they were a solid wall, do battle for His Cause in ‘serried lines!'Note that He saith 'in serried lines'—meaning crowded and pressed together, one locked to the next, each supporting his fellows.

To do battle, as stated in the sacred verse, doth not, in this greatest of all dispensations, mean to go forth with sword and spear, with lance and piercing arrow—but rather weaponed with pure intent, with righteous motives, with counsels helpful and effective, with godly attributes, with deeds pleasing to the Almighty, with the qualities of heaven. It signifieth education for all mankind, guidance for all men, the spreading far and wide of the sweet savours of the spirit, the promulgation of God's proofs, the setting forth of arguments conclusive and divine, the doing of charitable deeds.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

 

[Trailblazer]

you speak of false Christian beliefs . its well known and for told there would be deviations from the truth .
you should know there is no judgment after death . death was in fact the judgment given for sin.

It is typical for Christians to call other Christian beliefs false. Just look at al the discussions and debates on this forum.
But why are their beliefs false and your beliefs true? Because the Governing Body of the JW church told you they are true?

Christian beliefs are different because of how they interpret the Bible, but why is your interpretation correct and the other Christian interpretations incorrect? Who gave the Governing Body of the JW church the authority to interpret the Bible? Certainly not Jesus.

 

[Link]

Knives, guns, bombs, nuclear missiles? This is the Baha’i interpretation of the meaning of battle in Sura 61:4

The Iron and other things that make technology possible in the past till now, is a severe trial, but it's so he knows who help his Messengers hiddenly and that God will help who helps him.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is typical for Christians to call other Christian beliefs false. Just look at al the discussions and debates on this forum.
But why are their beliefs false and your beliefs true? Because the Governing Body of the JW church told you they are true?

Christian beliefs are different because of how they interpret the Bible, but why is your interpretation correct and the other Christian interpretations incorrect? Who gave the Governing Body of the JW church the authority to interpret the Bible? Certainly not Jesus.

So what do you believe is the penalty for sin? Or rather I should ask what the Bab says.