What if these Christian beliefs are not true?

[Trailblazer]

What is illogical or irrational about thinking that God would give people another chance to live free of our current imperfections, and living without the misleading influences we have today?

Once the issues of Sovereignty and its related questions (raised in Genesis 3) get resolved, it only seems just of Jehovah God to give His human creation - his children (Luke 3:38) — another opportunity to live, this time in peace and with accurate knowledge, under His loving rulership. That’s what the Kingdom is for. Matthew 6:9,10…. Daniel 2:44

There is no reason why God would give people another opportunity to live another life on earth, let alone live on earth forever!
If everyone lived on earth forever no new people could be born because the earth could not support that much population.

God intended for people to live their lives on earth and then die and go to a spiritual world, aka heaven, and that is the real paradise.
You are trying to make this earth life paradise but it was never intended to be paradise.

Trailblazer, you quoted 1 Corinthians 15:51….

“But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!”

I must inform you:
Where the Bible that you’re using says “we shall not all die”, at 1 Corinthians 15:51, it is in error. It is mistranslating the Greek word κοιμηθησόμεθα, which means sleep. It actually says, “we (those who belong to Christ) shall not all sleep” — as Paul said that some christians in his day had already ‘fallen asleep’ in death (1 Corinthians 15:6). Those “in union with Christ” who are living “during Christ’s presence”, ie., “at Christ’s coming”, will not have to ‘sleep in death.’ — See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

And Resurrection doesn’t mean transformation. It literally means “stand up again”, as in “come back to life.”

The Bible makes perfect sense, when its meaning is accurately understood. Which requires the help of it’s Author, Jehovah God. - Luke 10:21

Have a good day.

You can cherry-pick verses and interpret them any way you want to so you can continue to hold your beliefs.
You can also claim that verses have been mistranslated so you an make them mean what you want to believe.
I am not going to argue with you because it is futile.

You will only realize that your physical body is not coming back to life after you die and that does not happen - ever. You will be waiting for a resurrection of a physical body that will never take place. That is going to be very confusing for you and all the other JWs who believe like you. I feel bad for you but there is nothing I can do.

 

[SalixIncendium]

To God.

So we've come full circle, and with that, you've answered your own question.

 

[Colt]

All I have to say to that is that anyone can write a story, but that does not mean that the story is true.

Oh ok, back to the giant conspiracy wherein a bunch of common Jewish fisherman and such left their sacred religion and cultural identity, their wealth and families, created a fake story for free so they would be shunned and killed!

 

[PearlSeeker]

Oh ok, back to the giant conspiracy wherein a bunch of common Jewish fisherman and such left their sacred religion and cultural identity, their wealth and families, created a fake story for free so they would be shunned and killed!

No. A buncuf of educated Greek (or Hellenistic Jews) wrote a story about Jewish fishermen...

 

[Trailblazer]

So we've come full circle, and with that, you've answered your own question.

But what if these beliefs are not true?
Could Christianity still be a true religion from God?

The answer is yes.
Christianity could still be a true religion from God without those beliefs 1-4 that I listed in the OP.
In fact, it would only be a true religion from God without those beliefs because with those beliefs it would be false. Imo.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh ok, back to the giant conspiracy wherein a bunch of common Jewish fisherman and such left their sacred religion and cultural identity, their wealth and families, created a fake story for free so they would be shunned and killed!

"left their sacred religion and cultural identity, their wealth and families" does not mean that the resurrection stories were true.
Nobody will ever know why they made up those stories. Only they knew why.

 

[SalixIncendium]

But what if these beliefs are not true?
Could Christianity still be a true religion from God?

As I see it, there is no "true religion from God." All religion is from humans created by them to help them understand their existence and the world they experience.

 

[Trailblazer]

As I see it, there is no "true religion from God." All religion is from humans created by them to help them understand their existence and the world they experience.

As I see it, a true religion is based upon a Revelation from God that came through a messenger of God.
After that Revelation religions are created by humans.

 

[Colt]

"left their sacred religion and cultural identity, their wealth and families" does not mean that the resurrection stories were true.
Nobody will ever know why they made up those stories. Only they knew why.

Your faith that they made the stories up is misplaced.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your faith that they made the stories up is misplaced.

I do not need faith hold the opinion that they made the stories up.
You need faith to believe that the stories are true.
Your faith that the stories are true is misplaced.

 

[CG Didymus]

Your faith that they made the stories up is misplaced.

Strange stuff... Baha'is believe Christianity is a true, revealed religion from God. But what do Baha'is believe is true about it? All we know is what people wrote about it. Some stories and letters were accepted and others were rejected and then canonized and declared to be the "Word of God" by people.

I really wonder why Baha'is even bother claiming that any of it was true?

But like TB's other thread... For those that believe, it does matter and is sacred. I don't see Baha'is believing in enough of the NT to make it meaningful and sacred for them.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I do not need faith hold the opinion that they made the stories up.
You need faith to believe that the stories are true.
Your faith that the stories are true is misplaced.

I believe this is true because, as I read about Jesus in comparative mythology, my belief in his stories and the Bible dwindled until it was gone.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You can cherry-pick verses and interpret them any way you want to so you can continue to hold your beliefs.
You can also claim that verses have been mistranslated so you an make them mean what you want to believe.

This is a common practice among most Christians, in my opinion.

I am not going to argue with you because it is futile.

I learned this was true a long time ago. It is futile to argue (and debate) with anyone about the afterlife or anything else related to the paranormal.

You will only realize that your physical body is not coming back to life after you die and that does not happen - ever. You will be waiting for a resurrection of a physical body that will never take place. That is going to be very confusing for you and all the other JWs who believe like you. I feel bad for you but there is nothing I can do.

I agree. Well said, in my opinion.

 

[Colt]

Strange stuff... Baha'is believe Christianity is a true, revealed religion from God. But what do Baha'is believe is true about it? All we know is what people wrote about it. Some stories and letters were accepted and others were rejected and then canonized and declared to be the "Word of God" by people.

I really wonder why Baha'is even bother claiming that any of it was true?

But like TB's other thread... For those that believe, it does matter and is sacred. I don't see Baha'is believing in enough of the NT to make it meaningful and sacred for them.

Similar to Islam and even Judaism they can't bring themselves to flat out deny all of the Jesus story, so they take just enough to give their prophets legitimacy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Similar to Islam and even Judaism they can't bring themselves to flat out deny all of the Jesus story, so they take just enough to give their prophets legitimacy.

None of us need Jesus to give our prophets legitimacy since our prophets stand on their own.
And we especially don't need any fictitious stories written about Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

Similar to Islam and even Judaism they can't bring themselves to flat out deny all of the Jesus story, so they take just enough to give their prophets legitimacy.

I believe that the people here honestly believe their religious stories are true. But their beliefs contradict the beliefs of the people in some other religion. What to do?

Each has to argue that their Scriptures and their interpretations are correct. Baha'is need parts of the Jesus story to be fictional. Some Baha'is try to soften it by saying that the stories were symbolic. That way they can say that the stories were true... just not "literally" true.

For many Christians that's not good enough. The stories need to be absolutely, literally true.

But what do Christians, the Born-Again Christians especially, think of the Baha'i Faith? Unlike the Baha'is that believe that Christianity is a true, God-given religion, there's no reason for a Christian to think that about the Baha'i Faith. In fact, for many Christians, all of the claims of the Baha'i Faith have to be rejected as false.

Some Baha'i believe they must fight back and argue against Christians that think that way. And they say that some of the Christian beliefs are false. And that is taught in the Baha'i religion. They don't believe in hell, Satan, the resurrection, Ishmael vs. Isaac as the son taken to be sacrificed and several others. Who's gonna win that argument?

I think the Baha'i Faith is the biggest loser, because they claim their main purpose is to bring peace and unity. They say that they believe in the "oneness" or religion, yet some of their members try and tear down the other religions. But again, their religion does say what is wrong with the beliefs of the other religions. So, how does a Baha'i work towards bringing peace and oneness between the religions while at the same time telling people in the other religions how wrong they are with some of their beliefs?

Anyway, that is what you and other Christians are up against. They firmly believe that their prophet is the return of Christ and what he said is true. And part of that "truth" is that most all Christians have misunderstood and misinterpreted their own Scriptures.

I guess it is worth debating and arguing over, because we all are learning from it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think the Baha'i Faith is the biggest loser, because they claim their main purpose is to bring peace and unity. They say that they believe in the "oneness" or religion, yet some of their members try and tear down the other religions.

Sharing our beliefs which differ from some Christian beliefs is not tearing down anyone else's beliefs, it is only being HONEST about what we believe. When a Christian disagrees and says a Baha'i is wrong, which happens all the time, you never pointy that out so there is definitely a double standard. It is okay for Christians to present their beliefs and disagree with Baha'i beliefs but it is not okay for a Baha'is to present their beliefs and disagree with Christians beliefs.

But again, their religion does say what is wrong with the beliefs of the other religions. So, how does a Baha'i work towards bringing peace and oneness between the religions while at the same time telling people in the other religions how wrong they are with some of their beliefs?

Christians say what is wrong with the beliefs of the other religions -- all of the other religions are wrong because Jesus is the Only Way.
Again, the double standard that you are too biased to see.

This is a debate forum so people can respectfully disagree. That is not equivalent to tearing others down.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

None of that matters. The important point is that Jesus never said He was coming back to earth, visibly or invisibly.
Note that Jesus did not answer the apostles in the affirmative, He eluded the question by changing the subject.
He warned that many men would come claiming to be Christ and try to deceive people and He also said what would happen before Christ returned.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

If Jesus did return physically people would see Him but how would they know it was Jesus? Any man can claim to be Jesus.

Right. Jesus is not coming back to Earth.

And how phrases are worded, and which words are used (and their definitions), does matter.

 

[LuisDantas]

The following list contains some beliefs that are central to Christianity.

1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus is the only way to God
3) Jesus rose from the dead
4) Jesus is going to return to earth

But what if these beliefs are not true?

The way I see it, 1) is irrelevant (and should be).

2) is either irrelevant or very worrisome, depending on what people (mainly Christians) perceive as being a proper "way to God". It is just not obvious what that would be, or even whether it is for good or worse.

3) is irrelevant as well - except for Jesus himself, I would think.

4) ... I just don't know. Again, it should be important for Jesus the person, I suppose.

I never understood why Christianity relies so much on Jesus specifically.

Of course this is hypothetical since these are beliefs that cannot be proven either true or false.

Not exactly, but perhaps something best left for another thread.

However, this post is based on the assumption that the above list of beliefs are false.
If that is the case, I have two questions:

- Could Christianity still be a true religion from God?

Sure, by certain expectations and/or definitions of the terms.

Whether it would be valid is an entirely different question.

- How would that change Christianity now and in the future?

I am particularly interested in 4), the belief that Jesus is going to return to earth. Many Christians will continue to wait for Jesus to return as long as they 'believe' that Jesus will return someday, but what if all Christians realized that Jesus is never going to return to earth?

I think that history has made it entirely clear, for millennia now, that nothing would change.

Christianity might conceivably change, even radically, if many Christians convinced themselves that one, some or all of those four beliefs is innacurate. But even that is not entirely clear.

 

[GoodAttention]

How come no one talks about the 13 commandments Jesus gives as the way to Heaven