What if these Christian beliefs are not true?

[Colt]

No, that is not why I believe in Baha'u'llah. I believe in Him because of the evidence and because His teachings make sense.
Even if I was not a Baha'i I would never believe that a man rose from the dead after three days.
That would serve no purpose except to support the doctrines of Christianity. I don't think God would do something that makes no sense.

For those of us who do believe that Jesus returned in order to prove life after death to those who believed in him, it makes perfect sense!

 

[SalixIncendium]

The beliefs I listed in my OP are human held beliefs.
God does not have beliefs, God has knowledge.

What to us are beliefs are knowledge to God.
God knows which of our beliefs are true or false because God is all-knowing.

So you're asking what if Christian beliefs aren't true to God? I'm not sure that question makes any sense to me or why what a person believes would matter to God. How would what a person believes have any influence on God?

 

[Trailblazer]

For those of us who do believe that Jesus returned in order to prove life after death to those who believed in him, it makes perfect sense!

Yes, it makes perfect sense to those who believe in the doctrines of Christianity.

It would make sense to me if Jesus rose from the dead in a spiritual body to prove life after death to those who believed in him, so those people would know there is life after death.

It makes no sense to me that Jesus rose from the dead in a physical body to prove life after death to those who believed in him, because that would serve no purpose, since nobody else is going to rise from the dead in a physical body. Moreover, the belief that Jesus rose physically has led to the false belief that they will also rise physically, so it is causing millions of people to hope for something that will never happen, which is barring them from knowing the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you're asking what if Christian beliefs aren't true to God? I'm not sure that question makes any sense to me or why what a person believes would matter to God. How would what a person believes have any influence on God?

I am asking what if those Christian beliefs are not true. What if they did not originate from God.

I am not saying that what a person believes matters to God or has any influence on God.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I am asking what if those Christian beliefs are not true. What if they did not originate from God.

I am not saying that what a person believes matters to God or has any influence on God.

So I'll ask again. What if Christian beliefs aren't true to whom? To Christians? To non-Christians? To Hindus? To my neighbor's cats?

 

[Colt]

Yes, it makes perfect sense to those who believe in the doctrines of Christianity.

It would make sense to me if Jesus rose from the dead in a spiritual body to prove life after death to those who believed in him, so those people would know there is life after death.

It makes no sense to me that Jesus rose from the dead in a physical body to prove life after death to those who believed in him, because that would serve no purpose, since nobody else is going to rise from the dead in a physical body. Moreover, the belief that Jesus rose physically has led to the false belief that they will also rise physically, so it is causing millions of people to hope for something that will never happen, which is barring them from knowing the truth.

They saw him again, he would suddenly appear and vanish! Think about it, at first the apostles didn't even believe it! But then they witnessed it, so when they told others who might say "you saw a ghost", but no no, we saw him with our own eyes!!!! Oh come on, you saw a spirit or something!!! Noooo!!! We touched him, it was really him!!!! And how would they even understand what was happening? He kept appearing to believers over a period of 40 days and then bid them farewell!

 

[CG Didymus]

there is a well-known hadith attributed to Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (AS) that states:"حديثنا صعب مستصعب لا يؤمن به إلا ملك مقرب أو نبي مرسل أو عبد مؤمن امتحن الله قلبه للإيمان"

Translation:

"Our Hadith is difficult, extremely difficult, none can believe in it except an angel near to Allah, a prophet sent by Him, or a servant whose heart Allah has tested for faith."


"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.”"

Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude

So, God purposely put in verses in the Bible that an evil person would believe literally? And what are some of those verses?

 

[CG Didymus]

Truer words have never been spoken.

But that can be applied to her religion also. Baha'is are just as indoctrinated into a bunch of beliefs as much as anybody in any other religion.

This become very evident to me, when several Atheists questioned TB, Tony (TransmutingSoul) and Loverofhumanity and InvestigateTruth.

Epic threads where the majority of posts from the Atheists were asking "Where's your evidence? Where's your proof?" The "proof" and "evidence" was their prophet. Baha'u'llah was their proof... What he said and what he did.

Which is very similar to what Christians use as their proof. "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." I tried to believe in both of those religions. Now I don't trust either one.

 

[CG Didymus]

They saw him again, he would suddenly appear and vanish! Think about it, at first the apostles didn't even believe it! But then they witnessed it, so when they told others who might say "you saw a ghost", but no no, we saw him with our own eyes!!!! Oh come on, you saw a spirit or something!!! Noooo!!! We touched him, it was really him!!!! And how would they even understand what was happening? He kept appearing to believers over a period of 40 days and then bid them farewell!

And that is what the gospels say. Are the gospel writer lying? Most Baha'is will not go that far. But they will usually say the old... "He rose symbolically." Or, "His spirit rose, not his physical body." And, "They were seeing a vision. It seemed real to them."

Baha'is don't need nor want Christian beliefs and interpretations. They need people to believe in their "truth". Their guy is the return of Christ. What he said is what will bring "salvation" to the world.... which is by applying Baha'i laws and following their institutions. The main one being the Universal House of Justice. Any problem the people of the world my have, they will figure it out and give a divinely guided answer.

The more holes they can poke into the beliefs of Christians the better. Trouble is... Christians, Muslims, Atheists etc. are poking holes in the Baha'i beliefs. No one seems to be winning, but it sure makes for some great arguments.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So, God purposely put in verses in the Bible that an evil person would believe literally? And what are some of those verses?

Evil person might be too strong word for everyone.

But no, that's not about believing them literally. It is this:


"...The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed." Baha'u'llah


It is about denying the truth after they are revealed.
Example of this, is "God Resurrects the Dead on the Judgement Day"

It means, a Day comes, God sends a guidance to revive the Religion and guides the spiritually dead people.
It is a prophecy about next Manifestation of God. Now look at the quote again and see what Baha'u'llah said. There are only two types of responses. A group accepts and believes. Another group disbelieves and rejects the truth. Thus, it become evident who is truely a believer in God, and who is not. Thus whatever lies hidden in their heart is made manifest.

 

[Trailblazer]

So I'll ask again. What if Christian beliefs aren't true to whom? To Christians? To non-Christians? To Hindus? To my neighbor's cats?

To God.

 

[Trailblazer]

They saw him again, he would suddenly appear and vanish! Think about it, at first the apostles didn't even believe it! But then they witnessed it, so when they told others who might say "you saw a ghost", but no no, we saw him with our own eyes!!!! Oh come on, you saw a spirit or something!!! Noooo!!! We touched him, it was really him!!!! And how would they even understand what was happening? He kept appearing to believers over a period of 40 days and then bid them farewell!

All I have to say to that is that anyone can write a story, but that does not mean that the story is true.

 

[Spice]

applying Baha'i laws and following their institutions. The main one being the Universal House of Justice. Any problem the people of the world my have, they will figure it out and give a divinely guided answer.

This is the danger and sadness I find in ANY religion that thinks for its congregants--interpretation made by a few to be followed by all.

Many years decades ago, I wrote to the Billy Graham Camp to ask for answers to a couple of simple questions. What I received back was scripture recommendations without conclusion. At the time I was very disappointed, but over time I came to realize how right that response was -- and this from Baptist! LOL (I pick on Baptist often 'cause so many have made direct and rude judgement on me, however, there are some mighty fine Christians of Baptist persuasion.)

I recognize that new comers to faith need a guiding hand, but it should be a light touch. Jesus warned against following the doctrines of men.

 

[Trailblazer]

@CG Didymus said:
Baha'is don't need nor want Christian beliefs and interpretations. They need people to believe in their "truth". Their guy is the return of Christ. What he said is what will bring "salvation" to the world.... which is by applying Baha'i laws and following their institutions. The main one being the Universal House of Justice. Any problem the people of the world my have, they will figure it out and give a divinely guided answer.

This is the danger and sadness I find in ANY religion that thinks for its congregants--interpretation made by a few to be followed by all.

The Universal House of Justice does not think for the Baha'is. They only step in if there is a question about what Baha'i Laws mean, or how and when those Laws should be applied. We believe the UHJ is divinely guided since it was ordained by Baha'u'llah, who we believe was both divine and human.

Bahá'u'lláh ordained the creation of this institution in His book of laws, the Kitáb-i-Aqdas. The Universal House of Justice is a nine-member body, elected every five years by the entire membership of all national Bahá'í assemblies. The Universal House of Justice - Bahai.org

I recognize that new comers to faith need a guiding hand, but it should be a light touch. Jesus warned against following the doctrines of men.

Baha'is do not follow the doctrines of men. We follow the Laws of Baha'u'llah which He penned in His own hand.
By contrast, Christians follow the doctrines of men rather than the teachings of Jesus.

 

[cataway]

oh how ironic "Baha'is do not follow the doctrines of men. We follow the Laws of Baha'u'llah which He penned in His own hand.''

 

[Hockeycowboy]

God does and can not do illogical things

I think that God could do illogical things but God does not do illogical things because God wants us to use our rational minds to determine what is true.

What is illogical or irrational about thinking that God would give people another chance to live free of our current imperfections, and living without the misleading influences we have today?

Once the issues of Sovereignty and its related questions (raised in Genesis 3) get resolved, it only seems just of Jehovah God to give His human creation - his children (Luke 3:38) — another opportunity to live, this time in peace and with accurate knowledge, under His loving rulership. That’s what the Kingdom is for. Matthew 6:9,10…. Daniel 2:44


Trailblazer, you quoted 1 Corinthians 15:51….

“But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!”

I must inform you:
Where the Bible that you’re using says “we shall not all die”, at 1 Corinthians 15:51, it is in error. It is mistranslating the Greek word κοιμηθησόμεθα, which means sleep. It actually says, “we (those who belong to Christ) shall not all sleep” — as Paul said that some christians in his day had already ‘fallen asleep’ in death (1 Corinthians 15:6). Those “in union with Christ” who are living “during Christ’s presence”, ie., “at Christ’s coming”, will not have to ‘sleep in death.’ — See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

And Resurrection doesn’t mean transformation. It literally means “stand up again”, as in “come back to life.”

The Bible makes perfect sense, when its meaning is accurately understood. Which requires the help of it’s Author, Jehovah God. - Luke 10:21

Have a good day.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

The following list contains some beliefs that are central to Christianity.

1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus is the only way to God
3) Jesus rose from the dead
4) Jesus is going to return to earth

But what if these beliefs are not true?

Of course this is hypothetical since these are beliefs that cannot be proven either true or false.

However, this post is based on the assumption that the above list of beliefs are false.
If that is the case, I have two questions:

- Could Christianity still be a true religion from God?
- How would that change Christianity now and in the future?

I am particularly interested in 4), the belief that Jesus is going to return to earth. Many Christians will continue to wait for Jesus to return as long as they 'believe' that Jesus will return someday, but what if all Christians realized that Jesus is never going to return to earth?

I think item number one Jesus is God is correct. We have to define God, God is the infinite psychic cloud that exists everywhere and Jesus was able to connect with that infinite cloud and therefore Jesus is God, but the other three points are not necessarily correct.

On point 4 that Jesus is going to return to earth, I think it may be possible. When Jesus died, his soul rose and merged into the infinite cloud. But if merging does not mean that he has obliterated his individual consciousness. It is like a cloud inside a cloud and so it is possible that Jesus may decide someday to come back to the earth and he may incarnate as another, prophet.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I am particularly interested in 4), the belief that Jesus is going to return to earth.

Yes, the mainstream understanding of this, is not accurate.

Everybody says “coming”, like most Bibles at Matthew 24:3.
But the Greek word the apostles used, was “parousia”, which means “presence.” It would be an invisible presence.

If it was a physical coming, why did the Apostles ask for “signs”?

No signs would be needed; they’d see Him!
It’s interesting also, that His presence according to the Apostles, also corresponds with the time of the end / conclusion of this System of things / end of the world. (Not the planet, though.)

 

[Trailblazer]

oh how ironic "Baha'is do not follow the doctrines of men. We follow the Laws of Baha'u'llah which He penned in His own hand.''

Baha'u'llah was a man but He was more than a man, just like Jesus was more than a man.
They both had a twofold nature, one human, the other divine.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, the mainstream understanding of this, is not accurate.

Everybody says “coming”, like most Bibles at Matthew 24:3.
But the Greek word the apostles used, was “parousia”, which means “presence.” It would be an invisible presence.

None of that matters. The important point is that Jesus never said He was coming back to earth, visibly or invisibly.
Note that Jesus did not answer the apostles in the affirmative, He eluded the question by changing the subject.
He warned that many men would come claiming to be Christ and try to deceive people and He also said what would happen before Christ returned.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

If it was a physical coming, why did the Apostles ask for “signs”? No signs would be needed; they’d see Him!

If Jesus did return physically people would see Him but how would they know it was Jesus? Any man can claim to be Jesus.