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What if these Christian beliefs are not true?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
It says first resurrection. It says nothing about a second resurrection; it says second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What does Revelation 20:6 mean?

According to this verse whoever participates in the first resurrection is blessed and holy. "Blessed" is a beatitude that means "happy" or "spiritually prosperous." A blessed person may not be materially rich, but he is happy and spiritually prosperous. All who rise from the dead in the first resurrection, regardless of when or how they died, are blessed, and they are free forever from the second death. The second death refers to suffering forever in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14).


I think this interpretation incorrect firstly because nobody is ever going to be raised from the dead. That contradicts what Paul said in 1 Cor 15.
Secondly, I guess that second death is supposed to mean dying a second time, so those who are blessed will never die again. It is true that the blessed will never die again since we only die once, but it is also true that nobody is ever going to die twice so second death is an oxymoron.

The souls of people who are distant from God will continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies but they will be “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

I do not believe that Heaven is a place people go to after thy die, I believe it is a state of the soul who is near to God, and since not all souls are near to God not everyone will be in Heaven after they die. However, since the soul is immortal all souls will go to the spiritual world and souls that are far from God will be as dead souls since they will be spiritually dead.

Wherever the Bible says that the meek will inherit the earth that means that the new earth/kingdom of God on earth will be inherited by people who are living on earth and their progeny. Nowhere does the Bible say that means that dead people who were meek will rise from their graves and live on earth forever.
Well, first of all, thanks for your reply.

You wrote: “It says first resurrection. It says nothing about a second resurrection;”
Come on, Trailblazer…
If I said something was “the first”, you automatically know there’s gonna be a second.

Look at the context, vss.4&5. It states in the New Living Translation:
4Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

The second resurrection.



If you would, please read vs.6 again:
“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

So these in the “first resurrection”, what do they become? It says “they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.”

Can everyone be a king? No.
Do kings have subjects? Always.

These subjects are those who pray for / want God’s Kingdom to “come”, for His “will to be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.” — Matthew 6:9,10.

These make up the “mankind” over whom “the tent of God” will be spread. “And death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:3,4.) Isaiah 45:18 tells us that God ‘formed the Earth to be inhabited.’ And if there’s ‘no more death’…. I’m sure you can see the implication.

One thing the Bible is telling us, from beginning to end, is how mankind started in perfect surroundings… a paradise… then how mankind’s perfect start was marred by sin & rebellion, and God’s Sovereignty was challenged (Genesis 3), through an enemy (John 8:44). Physical death resulted (Romans 5:12…. “For just as through one man, sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” ; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22…For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.”)
And at 1 John 3:8, we are told the reason Christ came: “ to break up the works of the Devil”, and ‘to unify all things, in Heaven and on Earth.’ - Ephesians 1:10.

Read about the War in Heaven, @ Revelation 12:7-12. It portrays Satan and his angels, aka demons, as real entities misleading the entire inhabited earth. BTW, “the sea” mentioned there, refers to the wicked, the more tumultuous part of society. (See Isaiah 57:20.) The same as the “sea” at Revelation 21:1 & the “roaring of the sea” at Luke 21:25,26. We can see Luke 21 being fulfilled, it seems, everywhere we look.


(But honestly, since you don’t have faith in all of the Bible, I doubt what I say will have any impact. Hope so…)

Have a good day, Trailblazer!
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
He did this, by including two types of verses. One type, are Muhkamaat, these are light. They are the true guidance. Another type, are Mutishabihat. These are misleading. Whoever goes after them, thinking them as literally true, taking their Apparent as true, will be Mislead.
Who is to blame? Then one who does not use his mind to distinguish light from darkness? That is how God tests.
I still don't know why you have to make it so complicated. People wrote the stuff. They made up stories to make their God and prophets amazing beyond belief. Did you have Baha'i quotes that support this really, really stupid belief? I thought the "official" Baha'i belief was that those verses were symbolic but the religious leaders took them as being literal. Which to me is still stupid.

Again, people wrote the stuff. The wrote fictional stories. Embellished true stories. But, as I read through the Bible, I really believe they were meant to be taken as being true. Which, for a lot of us, it would be stupid to take them literally.
The God of yours is disgusting and make me want to vomit. But to each their own. :)
Here I thought Satan was the deceiver, but it was God all the time. I know you and I have our problems with some of the Baha'i beliefs and interpretations, but I hope this is just InvestigateTruth's own interpretation and not that of the Baha'i Faith.
Why? Is God not powerful enough?
Weird stuff... Baha'is believe God created life out of nothing, but he can't bring a lifeless body back to life.

But there is a reason they don't want Jesus to be alive, in a human body that is, because they don't want there to be any reason for him to be the one coming back. Their guy, Baha'u'llah, is the "Christ". He is the end-time Messiah. It's so important that TB, a person who used to say that she didn't know much about the Bible and the NT, studied them until she found some verses that have Jesus saying that his work is finished.

I ask again and again, why take those verses so literal and not the others? To tie this into her other thread... Beliefs do matter. Your Christian beliefs are important to you. But TB and InvestigateTruth's beliefs matter to them. But their Baha'i beliefs contradict your Christian beliefs. So, what can each of you do but to try and support your beliefs and knock down the other person's beliefs. Which, for some of us, makes both religions look stupid.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
The following list contains some beliefs that are central to Christianity.

1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus is the only way to God
3) Jesus rose from the dead
4) Jesus is going to return to earth

But what if these beliefs are not true?

Of course this is hypothetical since these are beliefs that cannot be proven either true or false.

However, this post is based on the assumption that the above list of beliefs are false.
If that is the case, I have two questions:

- Could Christianity still be a true religion from God?
- How would that change Christianity now and in the future?

I am particularly interested in 4), the belief that Jesus is going to return to earth. Many Christians will continue to wait for Jesus to return as long as they 'believe' that Jesus will return someday, but what if all Christians realized that Jesus is never going to return to earth?
Similar to:

1) The terminator was a cyborg from the future
2) Sarah Connor was the only way to change that future
3) The terminator was destroyed but kept coming back
4) Skynet promises to return.

Or any other fictional tale. Belief in a religion is a question of cultural habituation, nothing more.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I don't know that it is a con job.
Christians want to believe it so they believe it. They are getting something from believing it so I cannot feel sorry for them...
So that’s why you believe in the Baha i guy? Simply because you want to???

Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed arethey that have not seen, and yet have believed.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So that’s why you believe in the Baha i guy? Simply because you want to???

Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
No, that is not why I believe in Baha'u'llah. I believe in Him because of the evidence and because His teachings make sense.
Even if I was not a Baha'i I would never believe that a man rose from the dead after three days.
That would serve no purpose except to support the doctrines of Christianity. I don't think God would do something that makes no sense.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I never said you did. But your response "God" implied it. Here is the exchange...

This implies that God has belief. Why would God have belief?
The beliefs I listed in my OP are human held beliefs.
God does not have beliefs, God has knowledge.

What to us are beliefs are knowledge to God.
God knows which of our beliefs are true or false because God is all-knowing.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I still don't know why you have to make it so complicated. People wrote the stuff. They made up stories to make their God and prophets amazing beyond belief. Did you have Baha'i quotes that support this really, really stupid belief? I thought the "official" Baha'i belief was that those verses were symbolic but the religious leaders took them as being literal. Which to me is still stupid.

Again, people wrote the stuff. The wrote fictional stories. Embellished true stories. But, as I read through the Bible, I really believe they were meant to be taken as being true. Which, for a lot of us, it would be stupid to take them literally.

Here I thought Satan was the deceiver, but it was God all the time. I know you and I have our problems with some of the Baha'i beliefs and interpretations, but I hope this is just InvestigateTruth's own interpretation and not that of the Baha'i Faith.

Weird stuff... Baha'is believe God created life out of nothing, but he can't bring a lifeless body back to life.

But there is a reason they don't want Jesus to be alive, in a human body that is, because they don't want there to be any reason for him to be the one coming back. Their guy, Baha'u'llah, is the "Christ". He is the end-time Messiah. It's so important that TB, a person who used to say that she didn't know much about the Bible and the NT, studied them until she found some verses that have Jesus saying that his work is finished.

I ask again and again, why take those verses so literal and not the others? To tie this into her other thread... Beliefs do matter. Your Christian beliefs are important to you. But TB and InvestigateTruth's beliefs matter to them. But their Baha'i beliefs contradict your Christian beliefs. So, what can each of you do but to try and support your beliefs and knock down the other person's beliefs. Which, for some of us, makes both religions look stupid.
there is a well-known hadith attributed to Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (AS) that states:"حديثنا صعب مستصعب لا يؤمن به إلا ملك مقرب أو نبي مرسل أو عبد مؤمن امتحن الله قلبه للإيمان"

Translation:

"Our Hadith is difficult, extremely difficult, none can believe in it except an angel near to Allah, a prophet sent by Him, or a servant whose heart Allah has tested for faith."


"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.”"

Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, first of all, thanks for your reply.

You wrote: “It says first resurrection. It says nothing about a second resurrection;”
Come on, Trailblazer…
If I said something was “the first”, you automatically know there’s gonna be a second.
“Two great resurrections await the inhabitants of the earth: one is the first resurrection, the resurrection of life, the resurrection of the just; the other is the second resurrection, the resurrection of damnation, the resurrection of the unjust. (John 5:28–29; Rev. 20; D.
Chapter 32: The Resurrection and the Judgment

That would make sense in light of:
1 Corinthians 15: 51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

The first resurrection is the resurrection (transformation) to spiritual life, and it is for those who recognize Christ when he returns.
The second resurrection is for those who don't recognize Christ and don't have spiritual life, the resurrection of damnation, the resurrection of the unjust.
Look at the context, vss.4&5. It states in the New Living Translation:
4Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

The second resurrection.

If you would, please read vs.6 again:
“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

So these in the “first resurrection”, what do they become? It says “they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.”

Can everyone be a king? No.
Do kings have subjects? Always.

These subjects are those who pray for / want God’s Kingdom to “come”, for His “will to be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.” — Matthew 6:9,10.

These make up the “mankind” over whom “the tent of God” will be spread. “And death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:3,4.) Isaiah 45:18 tells us that God ‘formed the Earth to be inhabited.’ And if there’s ‘no more death’…. I’m sure you can see the implication.

One thing the Bible is telling us, from beginning to end, is how mankind started in perfect surroundings… a paradise… then how mankind’s perfect start was marred by sin & rebellion, and God’s Sovereignty was challenged (Genesis 3), through an enemy (John 8:44). Physical death resulted (Romans 5:12…. “For just as through one man, sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” ; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22…For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.”)
And at 1 John 3:8, we are told the reason Christ came: “ to break up the works of the Devil”, and ‘to unify all things, in Heaven and on Earth.’ - Ephesians 1:10.

Read about the War in Heaven, @ Revelation 12:7-12. It portrays Satan and his angels, aka demons, as real entities misleading the entire inhabited earth. BTW, “the sea” mentioned there, refers to the wicked, the more tumultuous part of society. (See Isaiah 57:20.) The same as the “sea” at Revelation 21:1 & the “roaring of the sea” at Luke 21:25,26. We can see Luke 21 being fulfilled, it seems, everywhere we look.
I am not going to try to interpret these verses. Suffice to say anyone can find verses and interpret those verses to mean anything that they want to believe. Any logical person would realize this, but their personal bias and their church doctrines prevent people from thinking for themselves.
(But honestly, since you don’t have faith in all of the Bible, I doubt what I say will have any impact. Hope so…)
No, I don't have faith in all the Bible but this is not really about that. What I don't have faith in is YOUR personal interpretation of the Bible.
You have a literal interpretation of everything in Revelation and most of Revelation is not literal truth, it is a metaphor for something you do not understand.
 
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