What if we accepted each others Religion?

[loverofhumanity]

I believe LH truly wants for all of us to love, respect and get along with each other and accept the things in each religion that are common in all of them. Which he says is the virtues. Okay, so we don't focus on our different man-made and dogmatic beliefs, but all start loving and being kind to each other. Great... then what?

Unfortunately, we all know all religions that seek new converts first shower them with love and acceptance. Are Baha'is one of those types of religions? I think so. Because the real barrier between being able to love one another and accept one another is that we must accept God's messengers... all of them. And who is the latest and newest messenger that we must all accept? Hmmm? Could it be Baha'u'llah?

And once again here is a quote from Abdul Baha' on Buddhism with the added bonus of his thoughts on Confucianism....

Buddha also established a new religion, and Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues, but their institutions have been entirely destroyed. The beliefs and rites of the Buddhists and Confucianists have not continued in accordance with their fundamental teachings. The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images" So it is with religions; through the passing of time they change from their original foundation, the truth of the Religion of God entirely departs, and the spirit of it does not stay; heresies appear, and it becomes a body without a soul. That is why it is renewed. The meaning is that the Buddhists and Confucianists now worship images and statues. They are entirely heedless of the Oneness of God and believe in imaginary gods like the ancient Greeks. But in the beginning it was not so; there were different principles and other ordinances. ('Abdu'l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pp. 165-166​

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It's hard to take a Baha'is seriously, when they talk of accepting the other religions, when one of their leaders says things like that. I wonder... will Baha'is be the first to dump their man-made beliefs and dogmas for the sake of love and unity between the other religions?

Then what? We each go our own way in life. We are each on our own journey. You go the way that suits you and me mine but we don’t hate on each other. We can disagree that’s fine. Nothing wrong with healthy discussion. Just not to allow it to turn us against each other. So after you’ve heard Baha’i ideas you go your own way and decide for yourself what you think is true or not. And all our duty is is to respect that.

As to your statement that It’s hard to take us seriously. We will weed out and dump man made doctrines such as terrorism, Isis, racism, prejudices between religions that are a cause of war etc. Baha’is are not extremists so are taught not to be fanatical. Then there are teachings regarding unity of race. Then we believe in other religions.

So there is a lot of Baha’is dumping some extremely harmful and dangerous man made doctrines which cause race riots (racism), religious wars (religious prejudices) and terrorist attacks (extremism). Getting rid of these man made ideologies will change the world.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The only Christian group still in existence that I'm aware of who don't believe Jesus is God is the Jehovah's witnesses, and a great many Christians do not accept them as fellow Christians due to this belief.

My point was simply that you have competing truth claims that cannot just be glossed over.

That’s true but there’s nothing stopping them coming together if they really want to obey Christ’s teaching to love one another.

 

[Trailblazer]

Eternal in the sense that there will always be religion but not in the sense that every religion is eternal.

Yes, I know that, that's the part I left out.

The religion of God is one religion that is continually unfolding. The Revelations from God are like chapters in a book, each one following the previous one, and these become the individual religions.

According to Baha'u'llah in the passage below, once a Revelation from God has served its purpose it will be renewed. Imo, that is when we should move on to the next chapter, although that is not what has happened. Instead, people cling to their own chapter and keep reading it over and over again.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81​

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That’s true but there’s nothing stopping them coming together if they really want to obey Christ’s teaching to love one another.

What is stopping them from "coming together" is that they don't agree on basic facts such as what God is and who Jesus is. Again, I'm not advocating any particular position here. I'm pointing out that there are irreconcilable differences between the different positions, and that it is really kind of Pollyannish to assume that these differences can be glossed over.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, I know that, that's the part I left out.

The religion of God is one religion that is continually unfolding. The Revelations from God are like chapters in a book, each one following the previous one, and these become the individual religions.

According to Baha'u'llah in the passage below, once a Revelation from God has served its purpose it will be renewed. Imo, that is when we should move on to the next chapter, although that is not what has happened. Instead, people cling to their own chapter and keep reading it over and over again.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81​

I really wish I were you sometimes. You always find the exact specific relevant passage. Thanks so much for that quote. So we seem to have a lot of people that haven’t had a change of clothes for centuries! lol

 

[loverofhumanity]

What is stopping them from "coming together" is that they don't agree on basic facts such as what God is and who Jesus is. Again, I'm not advocating any particular position here. I'm pointing out that there are irreconcilable differences between the different positions, and that it is really kind of Pollyannish to assume that these differences can be glossed over.

What’s more important what Jesus said or what theology the fallible error prone human mind of the priest says? If Christians can turn to what Christ said which they know comes from God then be united. The basic foundation of Christianity is Christ not individual interpretations but they have gone away from that so I agree it’s difficult but not impossible.

 

[Brickjectivity]

And instead of segregating ourselves in our own churches, pagodas, temples and synagogues, we would visit each others places of worship to meditate and pray together.

You'd need to develop very strict behavior protocols to make such visitations a success. Catholics, Orthodox, Jews and Buddhists have means of visiting one another. That has already been worked out. These each have a large contingent of people who do not have any problem with the other three religions. That would be your place to begin perhaps. I think protocols are needed. Its easy to offend people when you don't know how to behave around them. I think you should investigate how Catholics, Jews and Buddhists visit one another and what the rules are; and you should publish some etiquette rules.


Staring at the problem and thinking about it rarely leads to solutions. On large state university campuses you can observe what really divides people, but finding solutions to division finding a way around problems. If you visited enough campuses you might find a campus that has made some progress. Then you could study that success and perhaps find something there which can be replicated, to add to what you learn from the Catholics Jews and Buddhists. Its very important because campuses are absolutely caked with social fear, isolation and cliques. People there want to meet the right people, network, then get out of there. They don't generally want to know everyone, because many people are toxic, dangerous, losers, etc. My idea is to find a campus or some campuses that have managed to overcome the fear and cliques. This should lend some light to your problem.

Next I’m speaking of accepting the Founder and the spiritual teachings such as virtues and prayer etc not the laws. The administration of each faith would remain.

I'm envisioning a large glass window at each place. At each meeting hall participating religious places could have a large room that visitors could stand in and observe services through such a window, and visitors could be seen, too through that same large window. Its a two way window, possibly soundproof. They could visit, and the congregants or meditators could be assured of some level of normalcy. There could still be interruptions, but they'd be less likely because of the window pane. I think this idea needs work, but its an idea. You might be able to get some participation at a lot of places.

The window room needs have a good name, because you'd need to get funding to buy these window rooms. You'd need to call it something savvy that would encapsulate its purpose.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What’s more important what Jesus said or what theology the fallible error prone human mind of the priest says? If Christians can turn to what Christ said which they know comes from God then be united. The basic foundation of Christianity is Christ not individual interpretations but they have gone away from that so I agree it’s difficult but not impossible.

You do understand that Christians are a minority in the world? For a great many people, it is utterly irrelevant what Jesus may have said or did.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

I have corrected you on the issue of Churches and the fact that they do not have to require income on more than one occasion over the past few hours. Even if you don't agree that you were legitimately, you should be able to, at the very least, recognize the format of what a correction would be. I have stopped taking you seriously.

Actually, it would seem in many cases they don't even have to require proof of income even once. Although, there are no drawbacks and only benefits for a church or religious organization to apply for a verified 501 c3 exemption status. They just have to qualify as a church or religion based on determination criteria, and if they are recognized as affiliated to a major denomination that's a quick check and approval.

Beyond that, it is up to the 'examiner' assigned to their case to note any peculiarities in the case, and then bump it up to the proper level of treasury for an 'examination'.

Any corruption or embezzlement going on that they get away with, is completely illegal. The laws cannot be blamed and more laws won't provide a solution, the enforcement is the issue.

 

[F1fan]

Then what? We each go our own way in life. We are each on our own journey. You go the way that suits you and me mine but we don’t hate on each other. We can disagree that’s fine. Nothing wrong with healthy discussion. Just not to allow it to turn us against each other. So after you’ve heard Baha’i ideas you go your own way and decide for yourself what you think is true or not. And all our duty is is to respect that.

Individual freedom as compromised with social contract, which is personal responsibility and accountability.

As to your statement that It’s hard to take us seriously. We will weed out and dump man made doctrines such as terrorism, Isis, racism, prejudices between religions that are a cause of war etc. Baha’is are not extremists so are taught not to be fanatical. Then there are teachings regarding unity of race. Then we believe in other religions.

Big words. How will you "weed out" extremists and dump them when they want to kill you? Write them letters? That ought to do it, thanks.

I've asked you Baha'i how you would remedy the global extremists and you have NO solution. Has it ever occurred to you that your idealism is unrealistic?

So there is a lot of Baha’is dumping some extremely harmful and dangerous man made doctrines which cause race riots (racism), religious wars (religious prejudices) and terrorist attacks (extremism). Getting rid of these man made ideologies will change the world.

But you won't drop your anti-gay bigotry, so where is your virtue?

 

[ppp]

Big words. How will you "weed out" extremists and dump them when they want to kill you? Write them letters? That ought to do it, thanks.

I've asked you Baha'i how you would remedy the global extremists and you have NO solution. Has it ever occurred to you that your idealism is unrealistic?

And what is an "extremist" for a Baha'i? More interesting, what is the minimal standards to qualify as an extremist for a Baha'i?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Is Judaism a major religion? Demographically, it is really tiny, and it is only a major player on the world stage because of its religious import to Christianity and Islam.

Judaism is certainly much smaller than the other four but it is the other factors you mention that make it major. I can’t imagine any expert on world religion would minimize the importance of Judaism both in religious and world history up until this day.

 

[Trailblazer]

I really wish I were you sometimes. You always find the exact specific relevant passage. Thanks so much for that quote.

I wish I was anyone other than me sometimes but at least I feel good for something.
I have been saving and cataloging quotes from the Writings and all manner of other things related to religion since 2016, and it helps that I have a photographic memory so I usually know where they are within seconds or under a minute.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

I wish I was anyone other than me sometimes

I wish we were all One again. We'll get there some day, stay cheery!

 

[Vinayaka]

Then what? We each go our own way in life. We are each on our own journey. You go the way that suits you and me mine but we don’t hate on each other. We can disagree that’s fine. Nothing wrong with healthy discussion. Just not to allow it to turn us against each other. So after you’ve heard Baha’i ideas you go your own way and decide for yourself what you think is true or not. And all our duty is is to respect that.

As to your statement that It’s hard to take us seriously. We will weed out and dump man made doctrines such as terrorism, Isis, racism, prejudices between religions that are a cause of war etc. Baha’is are not extremists so are taught not to be fanatical. Then there are teachings regarding unity of race. Then we believe in other religions.

So there is a lot of Baha’is dumping some extremely harmful and dangerous man made doctrines which cause race riots (racism), religious wars (religious prejudices) and terrorist attacks (extremism). Getting rid of these man made ideologies will change the world.

I believe that 90% of this extremism you speak of applies to one religion only. Why include the rest of us in that judgement?

 

[ppp]

Judaism is certainly much smaller than the other four but it is the other factors you mention that make it major. I can’t imagine any expert on world religion would minimize the importance of Judaism both in religious and world history up until this day.

When I call Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or Hindu a major religion, primarily I am referring to the number of people who are bound to that religious culture, and whose actions are informed by those doctrines. Secondarily, I am talking about the number of people/cultures that have been directly modified by actions informed by those doctrines. I don't think that Judaism ranks under either of those criteria. Though I agree that Judaism has a huge secondary impact on the world via Christian doctrine and the fall-out from centuries of Christian abuse.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you won't drop your anti-gay bigotry, so where is your virtue?

The Baha'i law that states that 'sex is only allowed to a man and woman who are married' is not anti-gay bigotry.
A particular law in the Book of Laws is not bigotry on the part of the Baha'is, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.​

bigotry means - Google Search​

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Bigotry: the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life:​

bigotry​

The only bigotry I see here is the bigotry against the Baha'is on the basis of their membership in the Baha'i Faith, disliking the Baha'is just because we have different beliefs and a different way of life from what is commonly accepted.

 

[Dawnofhope]

ve come to that conclusion based on extended interaction with the poster. I would not expect that to be enough for you. Nor should you expect your reticence to be enough for me.

That is not a problem. It is a repute earned by the past behavior of the poster. You don't get to act with a consistent set of behaviors then complain that people are unwilling to pretend that your reputation is unearned.

I haven't been too active on this forum over the last 6 - 12 months.

The usual criticisms do not exist in a vacuum. As someone brilliant and devastatingly attractive so recently said, You don't get to act with a consistent set of behaviors then complain that people are unwilling to pretend that your reputation is unearned.

I think it was Oscar Wild who said there was only one thing worse than being talked about and that's not being talked about.

Heh. Ask a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim what a Messiah is. And who the Messiah is.

None of the above will agree with the Baha'is on that one but I've never heard Christians or Muslims complain the Baha'is have misappropriated their religion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe that 90% of this extremism you speak of applies to one religion only. Why include the rest of us in that judgement?

Extremism is not just violence but includes prejudice and hatred by religionists towards other religions which exists all over the world. At the worst extreme it involves violence and killing but also condemning each other’s Prophets and condescension of others. Basically anything beyond Ahimhsa is leaning towards extremism and that can be verbal and written as well.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

From

It appears to reading a lot into the OPs motivation and

To

Therein lies the problem. Any OP written by a Baha'i with a theme related to Baha'i Teachings becomes fair game for all manner of criticism simply because it is "Baha'i".

This brings to mind something about a pot and a kettle.
For what it’s worth, I had no idea the OP was written by a Baha’i when I looked at it.

It started if with an appeal towards inclusiveness, then the very first sentence is:

Firstly I am only referring to the major religions.

Which is of course exclusionary.
And the jumped straight to:

Next I’m speaking of accepting the Founder and the spiritual teachings such as virtues and prayer etc not the laws. The administration of each faith would remain.

So Christians would accept Buddha and Muhammad, Buddhists would accept Christ and Baha’is etc

Which I read as:
Christians would “accept” Buddha and Muhammad as legitimate prophets or intermediaries to “salvation”.
Buddhists would “accept” Christ and Baha’u’llah and presumably Muhammed as a path towards enlightenment and liberation.

It’s important to note, this is not the same as
say Christians “accepting” (as in being tolerant of) Buddhists and Muslims and Baha’i and
vice versa.
But specifically “accepting” their prophet/founders presumably as being at least theoretically legitimate.
I must admit to my spidey sense being alerted at this point.

Of course about half way through it became apparent with the quote

We Baha’is already do this and read from all the sacred scriptures of each religion in all our services.

I was content merely reading along until 83 posts in when the “switch” came with:

each of these religions prophecies the return of its own Prophet so there is a ‘link’ connecting the religions to one another making them all part of one unfolding process. We believe that Baha’u’llah was prophesied by all these Faiths so in reality He is an integral part of ‘their’ beliefs as He fulfills their prophecies.

To which I pointed out:

Yet all those faiths see Baha’u’llah as heretical.

To the part about a “link” connecting the religions and being part of “one unfolding process “.

And further pointed out:

They also warn of false profits…….
Surely you can see the problem here.

To the part about “we” (Baha’is) believing that Baha’u’llah was “prophesied” by, and an “integral” part of “their” beliefs and “fulfills” their prophecies.

I then finished with:

That you yearn for peace and unity among mankind is admirable.
That you can’t fathom that religions are antithetical to that goal is naive.

Thus the criticism was not “simply because it is Baha’i”, but rather because it went of the rails of reality with the bait of…..

“why can’t we be inclusive and all get along”,
to the switch of……

“we’ve incorporated the parts of your religions that we accept (while eschewing the core parts that differentiate each from the other) so why can’t you accept the part that you deem heretical which differentiates our religion and be like “us” so we can all get along.”

As a Baha'i posts, all the usual criticisms of the Baha'i Faith are dredged up.

This is a debate forum.
If you are adverse to criticisms and have a thin skin it would appear you’re in the wrong place.