What if we accepted each others Religion?

[Trailblazer]

Evidently you don't get that as an "or" statement you dont have to be both to be homophobic in my view.

I do not have any negative attitudes or feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (LGBT).
Quite the contrary. I have coworkers and neighbors who are homosexuals and they are the nicest people one could ever meet.

People are not defined by their sexual orientation since sex is not who we are as human beings.
Sex is only one aspect of our being and certainly not the most important aspect.

Where I draw the line is when people start speaking for me and defining me as homophobic when I well know that is not what I am.

 

[ppp]

never said eating foods from different cultures and reading books from different religions was multiculturalism, rather 'part' of multiculturalism.

I phrased "Merely eating the foods of different cultures and reading the books of different religions is not multiculturalism" poorly. You did not claim that those actions are the equivalent to multiculturalism, rather 'part' of multiculturalism.

I will rephrase.
Merely eating the foods of different cultures and reading the books of different religions are not components of multiculturalism. People can and do eat the foods of many diverse cultures without engaging in multiculturalism. People can and do read the texts of many diverse cultures without engaging in multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism is about the recognition, acceptance, and respect for cultural diversity, and often involves policies and practices that support and uphold these values in society. This does not mean that one must accept or respect all practices of another culture in order to have a multicultural attitude. And one should certainly not expect someone from another culture to accept all of your practices in order for them to be multicultural.

No?

I don't see a lot of cultural exploitation happening on this thread. Do you?

Implicitly, yes. As @Dao Hao Now pointed out earlier, the OP is bait. It is a low level form of love bombing. An expression of attention and interest and validation for the reader, designed for making the representative of the religion (and thus the religion itself) appealing.

I say yes, because the Baha'i faith explicitly exploits the repute of the older and more widespread religions by coopting their holy figures and reinterpreting their sacred texts. And yes, I am aware that those older religions have done their own exploitation of other cultures for their own gain.

IMHO, obs.

 

[danieldemol]

I wonder if you are reading something into the OP that isn't there. Acceptance does not mean or even imply full agreement. I accept atheism and agnosticism as legitimate worldviews though don't necessarily agree with everything about those perspectives. Similarly I accept atheists as my friends, workmates and colleagues yet I am a theist.

Possible although the nature of a good dog whistle is to have plausible deniability. If its just about acceptance of other paths as legitimate worldviews why not just state it plainly and more to the point, why restrict it to only the religions the Baha'i faith sees as major as opposed to also including atheism and agnosticism, non religious spirituality, and other religious groups that although small are probably larger than the Baha'i faith?

 

[danieldemol]

I do not have any negative attitudes or feelings toward homosexuality

You have stated in the past that you hate homosexuality, that you think it is against God's law, a cause of net harm to society etc, but if you've changed your mind since then I guess we can say you dont have negative attitudes towards it in my view.

 

[ppp]

It pretty clear language if you ask me.

"Religious Organizations
Unlike churches, religious organizations that wish to be tax exempt generally must apply to the IRS for tax-exempt status unless their gross receipts do not normally exceed $5,000 annually."

"Jeopardizing Tax-Exempt Status
All IRC Section 501(c)(3) organizations, including churches and religious organizations, must abide by certain rules:
their net earnings may not inure to any private shareholder or individual;
they must not provide a substantial benefit to private interests;
they must not devote a substantial part of their activities to attempting to influence legislation;
they must not participate in, or intervene in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office;
and the organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violate fundamental public policy."

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf Pg.4

Filing Requirements for Churches and Religious Organizations

Generally, tax-exempt organizations must file an annual information return (Form 990PDF or Form 990-EZPDF). Most small tax-exempt organizations whose annual gross receipts are normally $50,000 or less can satisfy their annual reporting requirement by electronically submitting Form 990-N if they choose not to file Form 990 or Form 990-EZ. Churches, some church-affiliated organizations and certain other types of organizations are excepted from filing.

What is form 990?

Form 990 is a United States Internal Revenue Service form that provides the public with information about a nonprofit organization. It is also used by government agencies to prevent organizations from abusing their tax-exempt status.

 

[ppp]

An organization, institution, corporation, etc... Is equal to more than each of it's individual members, it is equal to that and the sum of it's members collectively. No individual is the sole representative of the group, but the group can be seen as the sole representation of the individual.

You are talking about the fact that individual working together in a group can accomplish more work than each individual by itself. That is true, but irrelevant to the question of moral and ethical probity. Institutions are hollow shells. Social constructions lacking in awareness. It is only the individuals who comprise the organization who are accountable moral agents.

Institutions and their ideals can persevere through time, without supporters or members, waiting to be rehashed from what remains of it in the annals of history. Tribalism and groupthink behavior are pitfalls of joining and upholding the banner of any collective. IMHO.

I disagree. A record of the institution or or an ideal can survive without a living supporter, but the actual institution or ideal cannot. If all record and memory of the Red Cross and its ideals were lost today, then found again in 50 years, that institution would not exist for 50 years. It's ideals would not exist till that rediscovery.

 

[Trailblazer]

It was sarcasm. See post 40. Nor do I put people on ignore, and never would, for similar reasons. The only reason I got involved with discussing Baha'i in the first place was to correct misconceptions I read about Hinduism. So I do get your point. And I don't go looking for contrary posts either. Have a great rest of the day. It has warmed to -27C now.

Imo, Baha'is should not be trying to define Hinduism, not any more than Hindus should try to define the Baha'i Faith. It is not our religion.
Unfortunately, there is one person on this forum who consistently asks Baha'is about Hinduism, and apparently some Baha'is feel compelled to answer.

It has warmed up to 22F (-5.5C) today, which is considered brutally cold here.

I like the stillness and quietness of winter, but this is ridiculous! My new furnace cannot warm my house to over 62 degrees, which is not that cold, but sometimes it is hard to type for long periods of time when it is below 65. I cannot imagine what this hard freeze is going to do to my electric bill since it is already over 400 a month every month on what they call the 'budget plan.' Thank God it is supposed to be back in the low 50s by next weekend!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Multiculturalism is about the recognition, acceptance, and respect for cultural diversity, and often involves policies and practices that support and uphold these values in society. This does not mean that one must accept or respect all practices of another culture in order to have a multicultural attitude. And one should certainly not expect someone from another culture to accept all of your practices in order for them to be multicultural.

No?

Works for me.

Implicitly, yes. As @Dao Hao Now pointed out earlier, the OP is bait. It is a low level form of love bombing. An expression of attention and interest and validation for the reader, designed for making the representative of the religion (and thus the religion itself) appealing.

It appears to reading a lot into the OPs motivation and intent.

I say yes, because the Baha'i faith explicitly exploits the repute of the older and more widespread religions by coopting their holy figures and reinterpreting their sacred texts. And yes, I am aware that those older religions have done their own exploitation of other cultures for their own gain.

Therein lies the problem. Any OP written by a Baha'i with a theme related to Baha'i Teachings becomes fair game for all manner of criticism simply because it is "Baha'i". As a Baha'i posts, all the usual criticisms of the Baha'i Faith are dredged up.

The argument the Baha'i Faith misappropriates and exploits different cultures and religions, I had never heard of before coming on this forum. Like any criticism of any ideology or religion, its another opportunity for discussion and debate.

 

[Vinayaka]

Imo, Baha'is should not be trying to define Hinduism, not any more than Hindus should try to define the Baha'i Faith. It is not our religion.
Unfortunately, there is one person on this forum who consistently asks Baha'is about Hinduism, and apparently some Baha'is feel compelled to answer.

It has warmed up to 22F (-5.5C) today, which is considered brutally cold here.

I like the stillness and quietness of winter, but this is ridiculous! My new furnace cannot warm my house to over 62 degrees, which is not that cold, but sometimes it is hard to type for long periods of time when it is below 65. I cannot imagine what this hard freeze is going to do to my electric bill since it is already over 400 a month every month on what they call the 'budget plan.' Thank God it is supposed to be back in the low 50s by next weekend!

I'm envious of your weather. The technology of furnaces has improved dramatically. We got a new one about 6 years ago, and it easily replaced two furnaces, although one was a backup for days like today.

 

[Trailblazer]

Back in the 80's the faith did run a limited advertising campaign. In the end the dollar value was the killer, so fee people trying to so so much with so little.

That has not really changed, so few things to do so much, with so little.

That's too bad. I have seen the figures. The Baha'i administration has money and Imo with all the money the Baha'i administration spends on other things they should have enough money for some advertising.

One reason I am not giving to anything but my local fund is because I don't approve of where the money goes, to building temples and shrines. I do not care if the temples are supposed to help people in the future, we need to help people NOW. Most people in the world don't even know that the Baha'i Faith exists, and I think that Baha'u'llah would be aghast.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Possible although the nature of a good dog whistle is to have plausible deniability. If its just about acceptance of other paths as legitimate worldviews why not just state it plainly and more to the point, why restrict it to only the religions the Baha'i faith sees as major as opposed to also including atheism and agnosticism, non religious spirituality, and other religious groups that although small are probably larger than the Baha'i faith?

Well if it is a dog whistle the plausible deniability appears strong. You would need to ask the OP about their choice of wording.

I doubt if too many experts of comparative religion would disagree with the notion that Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity or Judaism are major religions. Atheism and agnosticism are not religions and in my experience those who identify with such views don't want themselves considered religious. But they are all worldviews and legimate along with a vast array of other views including nonreligious spirituality that were not mentioned. I doubt if too many Baha'is would consider that only the views held by adherents of the major religions are legitimate. I doubt if too many Baha'is would be too bothered by not being considered a major religion given our relatively modest numbers.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, and as it turns out we live in the real world, where lots of people have opinions of what should be, and not all of them compatible.

It’s important to acknowledge reality in order to have a hope of ever attaining an ideal world of how things should be, or anything approaching it.

Unfortunately the imploring of others to adopt their method of worshiping while conspicuously misrepresenting the reality of the conflict between different religions with statements such as these is not the way.
The bait;


followed by the switch:


which is of course not the view of the other religions and is in fact heretical to them.

I’m not certain if this is a result of blindness brought on by confirmation bias, or a disingenuous attempt at evangelizing for the Baha’i faith.

As I stated before….

The main thing here is that after centuries of conflict and wars between religions it’s time for reconciliation and peace. There are many paths we can take to achieve that end. Mixing with each other, visiting each others place of worship. The age of heresy and prejudice needs to come to an end through peaceful dialogue and cooperation between religions.

It’s no wonder the world is turning off religion because of all the lack of unity and harmony between faiths.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

I disagree. A record of the institution or or an ideal can survive without a living supporter, but the actual institution or ideal cannot. If all record and memory of the Red Cross and its ideals were lost today, then found again in 50 years, that institution would not exist for 50 years. It's ideals would not exist till that rediscovery.

The following quote comes to mind:

“That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.” - H P Lovecraft

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm envious of your weather. The technology of furnaces has improved dramatically. We got a new one about 6 years ago, and it easily replaced two furnaces, although one was a backup for days like today.

You probably have different kinds of furnaces up there where you live, since it is so much colder, and for long periods of time.

The furnace I replaced last February was a 1986 furnace and it was close to death. It still limped along but it was becoming a fire hazard and that scared me into purchasing a new one. I have it set to 60F while I am asleep and to 65F during the day and this is the first time it has been unable to keep to those temps. It is 62F in here right now and that is livable. Where we used to live we only had a wood stove for heat and during the week when we were working it was too late for a fire when we got home so it was in the 50s. Wood heat was sure a lot cheaper but the electric furnace is a lot easier!

 

[ppp]

It appears to reading a lot into the OPs motivation and intent.

I have come to that conclusion based on extended interaction with the poster. I would not expect that to be enough for you. Nor should you expect your reticence to be enough for me.

Therein lies the problem. Any OP written by a Baha'i with a theme related to Baha'i Teachings becomes fair game for all manner of criticism simply because it is "Baha'i".

That is not a problem. It is a repute earned by the past behavior of the poster. You don't get to act with a consistent set of behaviors then complain that people are unwilling to pretend that your reputation is unearned.

As Baha'i posts and all the usual criticisms of the Baha'i Faith are dredged up.

The usual criticisms do not exist in a vacuum. As someone brilliant and devastatingly attractive so recently said, You don't get to act with a consistent set of behaviors then complain that people are unwilling to pretend that your reputation is unearned.

The argument the Baha'i Faith misappropriates and exploits different cultures and religions, I had never heard of before coming on this forum. Like any criticism of any ideology or religion, its another opportunity to discussion and debate.

Heh. Ask a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim what a Messiah is. And who the Messiah is.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's an interesting thread, for me not because of the ideas presented but the negative reactions generated.

The whole idea of gaining inspiration from reading scripture from various world religions or attending an event at another's place of worship is just an integral part of multiculturalism. I might eat Turkisk one night and an Indian curry the next. I may read verses from the Quran one day and then from the Christian Bible the next.

I have no desire to stay within the confines of any one cultural tradition. Obviously not everyone feels the same.

At first when I became a Baha’i it was all Bahai. Then, because we are taught The oneness of religion I began studying the Quran and Bible and Bhagavad-Gita and found it all so liberating. And that expanded my horizons so much more. In my area I go to mass sometimes and now the priest is our good friend and drops in for tea. I pray to the different Manifestations sometimes and it’s so invigorating not being confined to a spiritual strait jacket.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

Filing Requirements for Churches and Religious Organizations


What is form 990?

From what I read, they don't have to report yearly. However, they are subject to 'examinations' (a term that was changed from "audit") from 'examiners' (term changed from agents) if there is any peculiarities in their case. It's all very bureaucratic as would be expected, but as far as the paperwork side of things goes, I for one am satisfied.

Above everything else, all of this would require for the federal agencies to maintain and uphold the regulations. Which they have a poor track record of accomplishing.

 

[ppp]

I doubt if too many experts of comparative religion would disagree with the notion that Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity or Judaism are major religions.

Is Judaism a major religion? Demographically, it is really tiny, and it is only a major player on the world stage because of its religious import to Christianity and Islam.

 

[Trailblazer]

Right. However, the higher level needs are still NEEDS. They are just lower priority needs.

I have psychology background so I remember studying Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs back in college.
I cannot remember what I thought about the hierarchy back then, but I have changed a lot since I was in college. One thing that has changes is that I was not into religion back then.

Now I believe that only PHYSIOLOGICAL NEEDS and SAFETY AND SECURITY are needs. I don't think the three at the top are needs.

I don't think they are needs because a person can survive without LOVE AND BELONGING, SELF-ESTEEM or SELF-ACTUALIZATION.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is Judaism a major religion? Demographically, it is really tiny, and it is only a major player on the world stage because of its religious import to Christianity and Islam.

Judaism is a good example of how size and being a major player on the world stage does not make a religion major.