What if we accepted each others Religion?

[Trailblazer]

What is the proper divinely mandated role and function of an older revealed religion (say Christianity) in the world when the dispensation passes from it to a newer revealed religion (say Islam)?

I am not much interested in definitional niceties. Can you answer this with a simple yes and no?

According to Bahai beliefs, God has ordained that all people of the world ought to follow one and only one religious system at a given period of time throughout the world......and that religion is the Bahai religion at the current time of history?

Yes or No?

Yes, I believe that God has ordained that in this age all people of the world should follow the Baha'i Faith.

However, that does not mean that this was true in the past ages, since it was never mandated by God that everyone in the world should follow one particular religion until this age. However, I believe that God expected the Jews to recognize Jesus as a divine prophet and embrace Christianity, since Jesus was prophesied in the Bible.

According to my understanding, God did not actually abrogate any religious dispensations until the coming of Baha'u'llah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What do religious/spiritual teachers from India have to do with any of the Abrahamic ones? For instance, what did Moses correct and say was wrong teachings of Krishna or Buddha? And, if you say that Moses came after one or both of them, then what did Jesus find wrong with their teachings and had to correct?

The problem I have with this Baha'i belief is that I don't think there is a connection.

It depends also on the place. Buddha definitely corrected misconceptions of the Brahmins as did Jesus the Pharisees. im just including one instance here regarding Buddha re the caste system. You might like to read on in the link.

In the following conversation between the Buddha and the proud brahmin Assalayana (after whom the Assalayana Sutta is named), the Buddha offers some ways to address the obdurate belief in superiority of caste, race, or any other birth group.

The Buddha Talks to a Brahmin Supremacist - Tricycle: The Buddhist Review

How a Buddhist teaching on dismantling the superiority of the brahmin class can help us take on racism.

tricycle.org

Master Gotama, the brahmins say, ‘Brahmins are the superior caste; any other caste is inferior. Only brahmins are the fair caste; any other caste is dark. Only brahmins are pure, not non-brahmins. Only brahmins are the sons and offspring of Brahma: born of his mouth, born of Brahma, created by Brahma, heirs of Brahma.’ What does Master Gotama have to say with regard to that?

The Buddha begins to dismantle Assalayana’s notions of superiority by noting that we all enter the world the same way:

But, Assalayana, the brahmins’ brahmin-women are plainly seen having their periods, becoming pregnant, giving birth, and nursing [their children]. And yet the brahmins, being born through the birth canal, say, “Brahmins are the superior caste . . .”

With Jesus it was corruption and hypocrisy of the leaders of Judaism.

Unless your righteousness should exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you would certainly not enter the kingdom of the heavens” (Matt. 5:20).

But apart from making some corrections, Their main purpose was to teach us new spiritual truths, expand our horizon and vision, and bring laws suited to that time. For example , at a time when there is so much disunity in the world, Baha’u’llah has brought teachings for world unity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The same could be said for buying a new car. I 'progressed' to a new car. Do you keep the old one hanging around?

By re-educate, do you include conversion therapy, the practice some Baha'is still advocate, but is illegal in modern countries? It is more humane than stoning for sure.

It’s the spiritual teachings of the past religions are eternal which even the new car still needs to function.

I was speaking about past religions which had harsh laws due to desert environment but that in our age many of the Baha’i laws involve a fine if broken or temporary loss of administrative rights. There is no such thing in the Baha’i Faith as conversion therapy.

 

[sayak83]

My understanding is that such a scenario is progressive not exclusive.

Christ could not have given teachings for world unity in His time as neither the world was fully discovered nor had world communications been invented. But in this age now that humanity has scientifically grown to become as one neighbourhood, God has sent Baha’u’llah with teachings to unite mankind. To love all mankind complements and broadens Christ’s teaching of loving one’s neighbour making the vision universal.

And laws such as stoning and crucifying have been replaced with more humanitarian laws because in the past God’s Revelation appeared to Moses and Muhammad in the desert where there was no prisons, police, courts, judges or rehabilitation centres so laws had to be harsh . But in this day we have all these facilities to reeducate the offender so laws have changed in this age.

Yes, I believe that God has ordained that in this age all people of the world should follow the Baha'i Faith.

However, that does not mean that this was true in the past ages, since it was never mandated by God that everyone in the world should follow one particular religion until this age. However, I believe that God expected the Jews to recognize Jesus as a divine prophet and embrace Christianity, since Jesus was prophesied in the Bible.

According to my understanding, God did not actually abrogate any religious dispensations until the coming of Baha'u'llah.

I think that myself and many others here would consider what both of you said to be a clear cut case of exclusivist religious worldview. I have no objection if a religion does claim exclusivism, only that it should not say it's pluralistic when it is not. But I understand that you feel that a religion is exclusive only if claims to be exclusive for all times. But I feel it's a pedantic distinction without any actual, on the ground, difference. Others are free to differ.

 

[sayak83]

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it …….” God Passes By, p. 100

The difference between supersede and abrogate is that supersede is displace in favor of another while abrogate is to put an end to; to do away with. What is the difference between supersede and abrogate?

In God Passes By, when Shoghi Effendi wrote that the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh abrogates all the Dispensations gone before it, he meant that it puts and end to/does away with all the former dispensations.

To say that all the previous dispensations have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah means that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world for the present age is through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not through any of the former dispensations.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

That does not mean to say that the religions have been abrogated, because a divinely revealed religion can never be abrogated.

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58

Yes, the Baha'i claim that the Baha'i Faith is the divinely mandated religion for this age but that is not the definition of exclusivism.
Baha'is do not believe that only one particular religion or belief system is true.

What does exclusivism mean in religion?

Religious exclusivism, or religious exclusivity, is the doctrine or belief that only one particular religion or belief system is true. This is in contrast to religious pluralism.

Religious exclusivism - Wikipedia​

No, the Baha'i Faith is not like the older religions, such as Judaism, Christianity. None of those religions claim that they are the one correct religion for a given time period. All of those religions claim they are the one correct religion for all of time. Can't get any more exclusivist than that!

Doing away with mandate for X' (say Islam) and promulgating a new mandate X'' (Bahai) is by definition superseding.
Abrogate is doing away with something without putting forth a replacement (abrogating slavery).
Supersede is doing away with something and promulgating a replacement (new inheritance law superseding the older inheritence law).
So Bahai religion is clearly superseding the older religions (abrogation of the old, adoption of Bahai). Once again this looks like a word game or a poor understanding of English by those who are translating it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So, one group believes in Krishna and that he is an incarnation of the God Vishnu or is God himself. For Baha'is, they believe he is a manifestation of the one true God that they believe in.

The other group has Shiva as their "main" deity. And if he is their main deity, who are the other deities they believe in? And who was their manifestation? And how do Baha'is make sense of these beliefs in different Gods? But also, since Baha'is do believe that Krishna was a true manifestation of God, then aren't they wrong in not accepting him?

If there was an official Baha'i answer, I'd love to hear it. But I don't expect that there is. Baha'is have put themselves into this fix. How do Baha'is explain their way out of it?

Hinduism is a very diverse religion. It is not like the other world religions such as Buddhism or Christianity where a founder can be identified. Theistic beliefs range from polytheism, monotheism and atheism. Krishna is generally seen as Vishnu or God incarnate, not a manifestation. In that regard there is some similarity with Christianity where Jesus is seen as God incarnate. As Hinduism emerged in relative isolation from Abrahamic Faiths, the approach and thinking is very different from Christianity or other Abrahamic Faiths.

The Baha'i writings have very little to say about Hinduism other than it is a religion of Divine origins. We have nothing to go on in regards historical documentation or artefacts. There is nothing in the writings to distinguish groups such as Vaishnavas and Saivites. From a Baha'i perspective there was in all likelihood previous Manifestations of God that lived in India prior to Krishna. Any records of their existence is lost within the mists of time. It would be a long bow to draw to assume one sect is more Divine or better than another based on whether or not Krishna is worshipped.

And another one... Sabeans? Why do Baha'is make them one of the nine religions? Other than they needed the amount to add up to the "sacred" number nine.

I don't know to be honest. I understand it is an extant religion.

I did find these interesting quotes from Shoghi Effendi:

As to the religion of the Sabaeans, very little is known about the origins of this religion, though we Bahá’ís are certain of one thing, that the founder of it has been a divinely-sent Messenger. The country where Sabaeanism became widespread and flourished was Chaldea, and Abraham is considered as having been a follower of that Faith.
Shoghi Effendi, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 20

With reference to your question concerning the Sabaean and Hindu religions: there is nothing in the Teachings that could help us in ascertaining which one of these two Faiths is older. Neither history seems to be able to provide a definite answer to this question. The records concerning the origin of these religions are not sufficiently detailed and reliable to offer any conclusive evidence on this point.
Shoghi Effendi, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 20

There is a more detailed letter from the research department at the Baha'i world centre if you are interested.

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

 

[Dawnofhope]

Doing away with mandate for X' (say Islam) and promulgating a new mandate X'' (Bahai) is by definition superseding.
Abrogate is doing away with something without putting forth a replacement (abrogating slavery).
Supersede is doing away with something and promulgating a replacement (new inheritance law superseding the older inheritence law).
So Bahai religion is clearly superseding the older religions (abrogation of the old, adoption of Bahai). Once again this looks like a word game or a poor understanding of English by those who are translating it.

It supercedes some aspects of the older religion for those choose to follow the new religion. With going from Christian to Baha'i there are new laws in regards prayer and fasting. However the fundamental virtues of truthfulness, justice, compassion and love for others remain the same.

It does not supercede the old religion for those who choose to follow the old religion and decline to recognize the new religion.

How is that exclusive?

 

[sayak83]

It supercedes some aspects of the older religion for those choose to follow the new religion. With going from Christian to Baha'i there are new laws in regards prayer and fasting. However the fundamental virtues of truthfulness, justice, compassion and love for others remain the same.

It does not supercede the old religion for those who choose to follow the old religion and decline to recognize the new religion.

How is that exclusive?

A religion is inclusive or pluralistic if it believes that there are paths other than itself which people can legitimately follow today which are also as efficacious in leading to God/Ultimate as one's own path.
Does Bahai faith meet that criteria?

 

[Dawnofhope]

A religion is inclusive or pluralistic if it believes that there are paths other than itself which people can legitimately follow today which are also as efficacious in leading to God/Ultimate as one's own path.
Does Bahai faith meet that criteria?

Yes

 

[loverofhumanity]

Doing away with mandate for X' (say Islam) and promulgating a new mandate X'' (Bahai) is by definition superseding.
Abrogate is doing away with something without putting forth a replacement (abrogating slavery).
Supersede is doing away with something and promulgating a replacement (new inheritance law superseding the older inheritence law).
So Bahai religion is clearly superseding the older religions (abrogation of the old, adoption of Bahai). Once again this looks like a word game or a poor understanding of English by those who are translating it.

Baha’is definitely don’t see it that way. We believe that Baha’u’llah is the ‘fulfilment’ of the prophecies of past religions. So if Baha’u’llah is the the return of Christ in the Glory of the Father then former Christians like myself see Him as the One for Whom I have long awaited as a Christian. So His return is an integral part of my Christian belief not a replacement and not superseding but fulfilling.

Christ also mentioned fulfilment when He said:

For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
John 5:46-47

And in the Quran 61:6

And when Jesus the Son of Mary said, O children of Israel, verily I am the apostle of GOD sent unto you, confirming the law which was delivered before me, and bringing good tidings of an apostle who shall come after me, and whose name shall be Ahmed.

The Bab

"I am,I am, I am the Promised One! I am the One Whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, (God Passes By)

Baha’u’llah

Lo, the sacred Pledge hath been fulfilled, for He, the Promised One, is come!’ ”

So Each has claimed to have fulfilled the Promises given to the followers of each religion not superseded or replaced. There is a very big difference.

Baha’is are people from all the different religious backgrounds who believe these claims to be true including Buddhist scriptures and the Bhagavad Gita as well as Zoroastrian prophecies.

And so Baha’u’llah is what unites us despite our previous conflicting backgrounds. So former Jews accept Christ, Muhammad. Former Christians accept Muhammad, Buddha and Krishna and so on. Once they considered only their own religion as true and the rest false prophets or created by Satan but now they have come together because of the unifying teachings of Baha’u’llah.

So for Baha’is it is about fulfilment not replacing or superseding. Is Baha’u’llah Who He claims to be is the question?

 

[sayak83]

Yes

How can that be so when Bahai writings quoted to me clearly say that all previous religious dispensations has been abrogated. If that is the case how can these older dispensations and religious paths thereof be equally efficacious?

 

[sayak83]

Baha’is definitely don’t see it that way. We believe that Baha’u’llah is the ‘fulfilment’ of the prophecies of past religions. So if Baha’u’llah is the the return of Christ in the Glory of the Father then former Christians like myself see Him as the One for Whom I have long awaited as a Christian. So His return is an integral part of my Christian belief not a replacement and not superseding but fulfilling.

Christ also mentioned fulfilment when He said:

For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
John 5:46-47

And in the Quran 61:6

And when Jesus the Son of Mary said, O children of Israel, verily I am the apostle of GOD sent unto you, confirming the law which was delivered before me, and bringing good tidings of an apostle who shall come after me, and whose name shall be Ahmed.

The Bab

"I am,I am, I am the Promised One! I am the One Whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, (God Passes By)

Baha’u’llah

Lo, the sacred Pledge hath been fulfilled, for He, the Promised One, is come!’ ”

So Each has claimed to have fulfilled the Promises given to the followers of each religion not superseded or replaced. There is a very big difference.

Baha’is are people from all the different religious backgrounds who believe these claims to be true including Buddhist scriptures and the Bhagavad Gita as well as Zoroastrian prophecies.

And so Baha’u’llah is what unites us despite our previous conflicting backgrounds. So former Jews accept Christ, Muhammad. Former Christians accept Muhammad, Buddha and Krishna and so on. Once they considered only their own religion as true and the rest false prophets or created by Satan but now they have come together because of the unifying teachings of Baha’u’llah.

So for Baha’is it is about fulfilment not replacing or superseding. Is Baha’u’llah Who He claims to be is the question?

From our pov, this fulfillment talk is just a word game you guys have played till time immemorial to legitimize the new religion which aims to replace the older one. So Jesus fulfills the Judaic messiah expectation. Mohammed is the final fulfillment of the prophets.
Bahai is another fulfillment. Maroni tablets yet another...and so on. More are there and will be claimed doubtless.
In all these the word fulfillment is about superseding the older strictures by saying a new updated or prophesied version has arrived. The writings of the new fulfillment guy supercedes the writings of the guy who activity he is fulfilling for this era/end times/epoch.
Windows 98, XP, 7, 10, 11......

 

[Dawnofhope]

How can that be so when Bahai writings quoted to me clearly say that all previous religious dispensations has been abrogated. If that is the case how can these older dispensations and religious paths thereof be equally efficacious?

There are universal laws present in all religions that enable one to reach their spiritual goals.

There are traditions and practices that need are a barrier to one's spiritual path and need to be abrogated. I don’t know a lot about Hinduism but the caste system in India could be a barrier. There's certainly beliefs in Christianity that are problematic.

If one is able to follow the highest principles of their faith and dispense with aspects of their traditions that are no longer helpful and relevant, they will achieve their goals.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, they make up a connection, like the Dharmic and Abrahamic religions all came from the same God. I still think they would have been better off just saying that all the other religions are wrong.

I concur. It's direct, and it's honest.

 

[sayak83]

There are universal laws present in all religions that enable one to reach their spiritual goals.

There are traditions and practices that need are a barrier to one's spiritual path and need to be abrogated. I don’t know a lot about Hinduism but the caste system in India could be a barrier. There's certainly beliefs in Christianity that are problematic.

If one is able to follow the highest principles of their faith and dispense with aspects of their traditions that are no longer helpful and relevant, they will achieve their goals.

So not equally efficacious. Possible but requires rejections of those aspects of faith the Bahai teachings say have been abrogated?
In other words if they follow only those aspects of their traditions that are there in the Bahai faith and rejects those that are not there, then they can?
What is the difference between that and saying "if they follow what Bahai faith says, then they can even if they do not put the name label on it?"

 

[Vinayaka]

It’s the spiritual teachings of the past religions are eternal which even the new car still needs to function.

I was speaking about past religions which had harsh laws due to desert environment but that in our age many of the Baha’i laws involve a fine if broken or temporary loss of administrative rights. There is no such thing in the Baha’i Faith as conversion therapy.

If you mean Islam, then say Islam.

 

[loverofhumanity]

From our pov, this fulfillment talk is just a word game you guys have played till time immemorial to legitimize the new religion which aims to replace the older one. So Jesus fulfills the Judaic messiah expectation. Mohammed is the final fulfillment of the prophets.
Bahai is another fulfillment. Maroni tablets yet another...and so on. More are there and will be claimed doubtless.
In all these the word fulfillment is about superseding the older strictures by saying a new updated or prophesied version has arrived. The writings of the new fulfillment guy supercedes the writings of the guy who activity he is fulfilling for this era/end times/epoch.
Windows 98, XP, 7, 10, 11......

You’re entitled to believe that but Baha’is are very serious about Baha’u’llah being the Promised One of all religions. Not a ploy or tactic or word games. Other religions as I pointed out say the same. I said it was all nonsense 50 years ago until I looked into it deeply. So I understand your skepticism and I believe it’s good you are suspicious because these kinds of claims need to be put through the fire not just blindly accepted.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What about African Christians, a lot of Christians including Egypt came to Islam. I don't know where you get your facts, probably like everything else you just make it up.

I was talking about why Messengers were rejected. Even as Quran says:

""Ah! Alas for (My) Servants! There comes not a messenger to them but they mock him!" 36:30

I gave four reasons why people every time reject Messengers. All of them are mentioned in the Quran.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you mean Islam, then say Islam.

I meant both the Jews and Islam had harsh laws as they had to maintain law and order in a desert environment.

 

[Vinayaka]

I meant both the Jews and Islam had harsh laws as they had to maintain law and order in a desert environment.

Then let's start eliminating Buddhism and Hinduism as religions that need to change. Just say Islam and Christianity rather than all previous religions, or the big 8. Some other Baha'i here have already done that.