It seems you are taking disagreement of his interpretations as far fetch as mockery?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
What if we accepted each others Religion?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
I've asked you guys before about @InvestigateTruth interpretation of Muslims political situation as punishment from God. I don't see how picking on Muslims as "fire for disbelievers" verses are all about them per your brother in faith, is at all brotherhood.
Salam
I make a distinction, I understand rejecting Messengers per Islam and Bahai Faith results in hell. This is not my contention, my contention is seeing the political situation in real time and saying this is God punishing them.
I think you guys are a security issue to Muslim majority counties if this is the case of your faith.
I make a distinction, I understand rejecting Messengers per Islam and Bahai Faith results in hell. This is not my contention, my contention is seeing the political situation in real time and saying this is God punishing them.
I think you guys are a security issue to Muslim majority counties if this is the case of your faith.
I don't know what that means or looks like on a daily, practical level.
I think you’re referring to this quote. . If the world chooses in 600 years time to follow Baha’u’llah then that’s their choice.
When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God's Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I looked into him, and he did not. Give me some examples of the Laws and Ordinances he has. What is the name of his holy book?
It is up to each of us to read the reality of our own lives and determine what works well and what doesn't. What works for you may not work for me and vice versa.
The spiritual journey is a personal one for each of us. There is one live only that we are ultimately responsible for and that is our own. Jesus taught judge not lest ye be judged. Take the log out of your own eye before removing the speck from your brothers eye. That is the heart of the matter.
It makes as no sense for me to determine the efficacy of my path by using your religion as a yardstick. Why should you use my religion as a yardstick to measure your progress?
I see what you are saying but it is not the way I think or live my life as a Baha'i and human being. It looks like you are trying to fit Baha'is into your preconceived ideas.
Whether it is your personal intention or not, that's how it comes across. For one thing, you could enter topics here besides Baha'i started or Baha'i focused ones. I understand how, for some people, their religion is their overwhelming daily focus. In Hinduism, we try to act rather that talk. That's why you don't hear much about it on the forums, or compared to Baha'i, Hinduism is vastly under represented here.
BTW, 'oneness of humanity' is a uniquely Baha'i slogan.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
If you remember we discussed this before.
When the Jews rejected Jesus and killed Him, according to Quran, God made the Jews weaker, and caused their enemies to overcome them. The same things are happening to the Muslims just as happend to the Jews. This is not what I am saying. This is in the Quran and Hadith. I copy from Bihar alanwar, vol 51-53:
" it is mentioned in the authentic traditions of Ahle Bayt (a.s.) that
whatever happened in Bani Israel will happen in this Ummah also exactly. "
Through his chains of narrators, it is narrated from Abu Khalid Qummat from Humran bin Ayyan that:
“Once I asked Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) if there is something in Bani Israel, which will not happen in this Ummah?
He replied: No.
Zamakhshari has quoted from Huzaifah in Tafsir Kashaf that the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) said:
You are very similar to Bani Israel in your habits and practices and you will act in the same way as them. You will walk step by step according to them. Although I cannot say whether you will worship the calf like them or not.
It is mentioned in a correct tradition of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) that he said: Very soon, all that has passed in Bani Israel will come to pass in my Ummah also. That is if someone entered a porpoise hole in Banu Israel, you would also enter it.
Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) said:
“I swear by Him, Who made me a rightful Prophet and harbinger of good news that all those things are going to occur in my Ummah in the same order, which had occurred during previous Ummahs. So much so that if a snake entered a hole in Banu Israel, it would happen in my Ummah also.”
Notice it says, ALL happend to Bani Isreal will happen to Muslims in the same order.
So, why is it strange to you, when the Jews killed their Messiah, the Muslims would not?
Here is a Hadith that says the Muslims will kill their Qaim:
I heard Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) say:
“In the Master of the Affair there is a tradition from Musa, a tradition from Isa, a tradition from Yusuf and a tradition from Muhammad (a.s.). As for the tradition from Musa, he is fearful, vigilant; as for the tradition from Isa, it is that the same that was said about Isa will be said about him; as for the tradition from Yusuf, it is the prison and the Taqayyah; ....
Do you know what was said about Jesus? This is an allusion to the verse of the Quran:
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا ٱلْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ ٱللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱخْتَلَفُوا۟ فِيهِ لَفِى شَكٍّۢ مِّنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِۦ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا ٱتِّبَاعَ ٱلظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًۢا ١٥٧
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary....
So, there are so many Hadithes from Imams and Muhammad, that everything that happend to Jews, will happen to Muslims.
My suggestion is, read history and see what happend to the Jews after they killed Jesus.
No, I wasn't referring to that quote, but to a combination of various others from what I've read. The entire idea of 'entry by troops' is an example. One of your fellow Baha'is said it directly not so long ago on this thread.
Many slogans are like that. MAGA comes to mind.
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Calling a religion exclusivist is nothing more than name-calling, a way to try to knock the religion down.
I do differ in my opinion, for reasons I already explained, and also for logical reasons, which I will explain below..
I don't think it makes any logical sense to follow the older religions, since they were not revealed for modern-day society. Whereas their spiritual teachings of those religions are still valid and always will be, religion is about more than spiritual teachings. Religion should also have practical value, in order to be useful for living in the world, as well as teachings and laws from God that pertain to the modern age. Moreover, the message of a religion should address the 'needs of humanity' for the present age, which are not the same as what humanity needed 2000 or 5000 years ago.
“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80
“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Counsels Tony, Counsels.
“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The difference between supersede and abrogate is that supersede is displace in favour of another while abrogate is to put an end to; to do away with. What is the difference between supersede and abrogate?
abrogate If someone in a position of authority abrogates something such as a law, agreement, or practice, they put an end to it.
The definition of abrogate does not say what you said: "Abrogate is doing away with something without putting forth a replacement (abrogating slavery)."
You added to the definition. If something is abrogated it is not necessarily replaced by something else. It may or may not be replaced by something else, but in the case of the former revelations from God, there was a replacement.
According to the book God Passes By, the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh abrogates all the Dispensations gone before it, he meant that it puts an end to/does away with all the former dispensations.
* * * * * * * * * *
Abrogate and supersede are two words that are often used interchangeably, but they have distinct meanings. Understanding the difference between these two words is important for clear communication and accurate usage.
Abrogate refers to the act of repealing or revoking a law, agreement, or contract. It is a formal and legal term that is commonly used in the context of constitutional law. Supersede, on the other hand, means to replace or take the place of something that is outdated or no longer effective. It is a more general term that can be used in a variety of contexts.
Abrogate vs Supersede: How Are These Words Connected?
I believe that the Baha'i Faith not only abrogates all the former dispensations, I believe it also supersedes all the older religions, since it replaces/takes the place of religions that are outdated and no longer effective.
Last edited:
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I think Humanity has spiritual diseases. We need spiritual cure.
The diseases are greed, jealousy, dishonesty, disunity, lust, ego and fanaticism.
They come from being too attached to worldly and materistic things.
We need a spiritual education system to promote ethics and spirituality in place of materialism and worldly attachments.
The Bahai Faith has this system in place, and it does not require people to convert. Just offering the education to the communities and asking them to promote and participate.
Education to the community.
I'm not sure I know what that looks like, either.
And if it was put on by a specific faith, that would be off-putting.
But, how do you, @InvestigateTruth , and me, George, work together for this?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
With all due respect, the spiritual cure has been offered in all the older religions, especially Christianity.
Christians have been instructed not love the world and not to lay up their treasures on earth.
John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Baha'u'llah reiterated those teachings, but that is not what Baha'is are teaching to Baha'is in their communities or people they invite to participate in their activities. They are teaching the oneness of humanity, oneness of religion, and offering people new social teachings such as elimination of prejudice. Nobody is talking about materialism. Baha'is are working to build a new world order, but there will never be a new world order unless people stop living for the material world and all it has to offer.
That is not even to mention denying our selfish desires. Jesus told us to deny self, and Baha'u'llah reiterated that, and until that starts happening nothing in this world is going to change.
Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
“Say: Deliver your souls, O people, from the bondage of self, and purify them from all attachment to anything besides Me. Remembrance of Me cleanseth all things from defilement, could ye but perceive it. Say: Were all created things to be entirely divested of the veil of worldly vanity and desire, the Hand of God would in this Day clothe them, one and all, with the robe “He doeth whatsoever He willeth in the kingdom of creation,” that thereby the sign of His sovereignty might be manifested in all things. Exalted then be He, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Almighty, the Supreme Protector, the All-Glorious, the Most Powerful.”
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Plus, Baha'is say that the older religions, as taught and believed today, all contain doctrines and beliefs based on wrong interpretation and man-made traditions that have been added in. Making them pretty much useless, since they are not teaching the truth about God. Which leaves only the Baha'i Faith that is teaching the truth.
I don't see why they just don't clearly proclaim it. It's like they are trying not to offend anybody in the other religions.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I'm talking about the jump from either what Krishna taught or what Buddha taught to anyone of the many "manifestations" Baha'is believe in that came from Judaism. The main one being Moses. Where does he fit in? Do you believe he came before or after Krishna and/or Buddha?It depends also on the place. Buddha definitely corrected misconceptions of the Brahmins as did Jesus the Pharisees. im just including one instance here regarding Buddha re the caste system. You might like to read on in the link.
In the following conversation between the Buddha and the proud brahmin Assalayana (after whom the Assalayana Sutta is named), the Buddha offers some ways to address the obdurate belief in superiority of caste, race, or any other birth group.
The Buddha Talks to a Brahmin Supremacist - Tricycle: The Buddhist Review
How a Buddhist teaching on dismantling the superiority of the brahmin class can help us take on racism.tricycle.org
Master Gotama, the brahmins say, ‘Brahmins are the superior caste; any other caste is inferior. Only brahmins are the fair caste; any other caste is dark. Only brahmins are pure, not non-brahmins. Only brahmins are the sons and offspring of Brahma: born of his mouth, born of Brahma, created by Brahma, heirs of Brahma.’ What does Master Gotama have to say with regard to that?
The Buddha begins to dismantle Assalayana’s notions of superiority by noting that we all enter the world the same way:
But, Assalayana, the brahmins’ brahmin-women are plainly seen having their periods, becoming pregnant, giving birth, and nursing [their children]. And yet the brahmins, being born through the birth canal, say, “Brahmins are the superior caste . . .”
With Jesus it was corruption and hypocrisy of the leaders of Judaism.
Unless your righteousness should exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you would certainly not enter the kingdom of the heavens” (Matt. 5:20).
But apart from making some corrections, Their main purpose was to teach us new spiritual truths, expand our horizon and vision, and bring laws suited to that time. For example , at a time when there is so much disunity in the world, Baha’u’llah has brought teachings for world unity.
If Moses came after, then what God told him should have "corrected" the misconceptions that became part of the beliefs surrounding the teachings of Krishna and the Buddha. If Moses came before one or both of them, then their teachings should have corrected the wrong beliefs that had crept into Judaism.
That is what you are claiming. That each manifestation corrected the previous religions.