What if we accepted each others Religion?

[Link]

Question: who are those who see the Judgement Day far?

If you say, these are the disbelievers as in Atheists, then sure they do not believe in the Judgement Day in the first place. So, to say this verse is referring to the disbelievers, is not logical.
If you say, these are the Christians, that also is not true, as many times Christians saying this year is the End and Jesus comes.
So, again, who are those who believe in the Judgement Day, but think it is very far?!!!!

We've been through this before.

 

[Muffled]

Not at all. There are many good people working for peace and we Baha’is are just one of many such groups.

I believe the Anti-Christ will bring peace but as the embodiment of evil that won't last long.

 

[Muffled]

No group had the interpretation of Baha'allah. It would mean all up to that point, no one understood the Quran the way Bahais do. Why do you suppose that is the case? Weren't Imams supposed to safeguard the proper interpretation?

Per Philosophers definition of fallacy of double meaning, God would be a liar if what Bahais say is true.

I believe often the protectors of an interpretation are protecting an incorrect interpretation.

 

[Muffled]

The reality is the 10 countries that hold apostacy is punishable by death or atheism or whatever, it's stated in law, but not applied today. It's there in theory alone.

I think it should be allowed to leave your religion, but I'm just saying people do it and there are no consequences. In theory, the law would punish them but it's not applied.

I believe the possible exception to that is Iran where a woman was executed recently.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There's a difference. Although they have meeting point where they can be used interchangeably, they also have points where they don't, just like any synonyms in other languages.

Ok.

To use for worth, it would have use the latter.

Prove this.

 

[Link]

Ok.

Prove this.

I can give an example of it elsewhere in Quran:

Meqdaar:

اللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا تَحْمِلُ كُلُّ أُنْثَىٰ وَمَا تَغِيضُ الْأَرْحَامُ وَمَا تَزْدَادُ ۖ وَكُلُّ شَيْءٍ عِنْدَهُ بِمِقْدَارٍ | Allah knows what every female carries [in her womb], and what the wombs reduce and what they increase, and everything is by [precise] measure with Him, | Ar-Ra'd : 8

Qadar:

مَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ | They do not regard Allah with the regard due to Him. Indeed Allah is all-strong, all-mighty. | Al-Hajj : 74

And also:

فَقُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّرَ | Perish he, how he decided! | Al-Muddaththir : 19

The deciding here is regarding how he valued the Quran and Mohammad (S) and signs shown to him. It's not an exact measurement, but more the value he gave it.

The preceding verse is how they regard God, again, no one can measure God in exact terms. The Meqdaar is the measurement in exact terms.

Where Qadar and Meqdaar become synonymous really is when God does it with his creation, since his valuing (subjectively) is one and the same with his exact measurement.

But to say it's WORTH, the VALUE in terms of how good it is or awesome or great, you would use the latter two. You wouldn't talk about it in exact measuring type word.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We've discussed this before. The verse about 1000 years is not about judgment day unlike the 50 000 years.

Both verse are talking about Ascension ( يعرج). Clearly, about the same event.

Plus, there is another verse, that clearly says the 1000 years period, is about the Judgement Day:


"They challenge you ˹O Prophet˺ to hasten the torment. And Allah will never fail in His promise. But a day with your Lord is indeed like a thousand years by your counting." 22:47

 

[Link]

Both verse are talking about Ascension ( يعرج). Clearly, about the same event.

Plus, there is another verse, that clearly says the 1000 years period, is about the Judgement Day:


"They challenge you ˹O Prophet˺ to hasten the torment. And Allah will never fail in His promise. But a day with your Lord is indeed like a thousand years by your counting." 22:47

Eh, this is getting to be a headache. Can you explain why my explanation does not work?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I can give an example of it elsewhere in Quran:

Meqdaar:

اللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا تَحْمِلُ كُلُّ أُنْثَىٰ وَمَا تَغِيضُ الْأَرْحَامُ وَمَا تَزْدَادُ ۖ وَكُلُّ شَيْءٍ عِنْدَهُ بِمِقْدَارٍ | Allah knows what every female carries [in her womb], and what the wombs reduce and what they increase, and everything is by [precise] measure with Him, | Ar-Ra'd : 8

Qadar:

مَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ | They do not regard Allah with the regard due to Him. Indeed Allah is all-strong, all-mighty. | Al-Hajj : 74

And also:

فَقُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّرَ | Perish he, how he decided! | Al-Muddaththir : 19

The deciding here is regarding how he valued the Quran and Mohammad (S) and signs shown to him. It's not an exact measurement, but more the value he gave it.

The preceding verse is how they regard God, again, no one can measure God in exact terms. The Meqdaar is the measurement in exact terms.

Where Qadar and Meqdaar become synonymous really is when God does it with his creation, since his valuing (subjectively) is one and the same with his exact measurement.

But to say it's WORTH, the VALUE in terms of how good it is or awesome or great, you would use the latter two. You wouldn't talk about it in exact measuring type word.

Hmmm, i dont see how that proves your point.
Question was, in case of the 1000 years, it clearly says, as per your reckoning. But in case of 50,000 years it does not!
Beside this, you agree مقدار and قدر can have identical meaning.
Also, In Arabic, it is not common to use the word مقدار for the length of a period.
Beside all these, there are Hadithes, as shown, that on Day of Resurrection, things happen fast, so that a year is like a moment of flame of fire.
Now, how logical it is to say, the Qaim cannot come and say, God caused this 50,000 years, to pass in a moment?

Don't you see, how this can be an example, that the Muslims argue with Qaim to reject Him? (The same way, other Ummah argued with their messengers?)

 

[Link]

Hmmm, i dont see how that proves your point.
Question was, in case of the 1000 years, it clearly says, as per your reckoning. But in case of 50,000 years it does not!
Beside this, you agree مقدار and قدر can have identical meaning.
Also, In Arabic, it is not common to use the word مقدار for the length of a period.
Beside all these, there are Hadithes, as shown, that on Day of Resurrection, things happen fast, so that a year is like a moment of flame of fire.
Now, how logical it is to say, the Qaim cannot come and say, God caused this 50,000 years, to pass in a moment?

Don't you see, how this can be an example, that the Muslims argue with Qaim to reject Him? (The same way, other Ummah argued with their messengers?)

It proves my point and everything you stated after is already refuted. You repeat same points and your mistranslations have been already been exposed.

 

[Balthazzar]

Firstly I am only referring to the major religions.

Next I’m speaking of accepting the Founder and the spiritual teachings such as virtues and prayer etc not the laws. The administration of each faith would remain.

So Christians would accept Buddha and Muhammad, Buddhists would accept Christ and Baha’is etc

And instead of segregating ourselves in our own churches, pagodas, temples and synagogues, we would visit each others places of worship to meditate and pray together. We Baha’is already do this and read from all the sacred scriptures of each religion in all our services.

In this way we can celebrate our diversity. I think in many places this is happening and also interfaith breaking down barriers. I myself I accept all the major religions and their Founders and Holy Books and find this enriches me greatly. So I read something Christ or Buddha said and it’s a great experience. Christ says to love and Buddha says to fight hate with love and that the greatest of all conquerors is he who conquers his own self. So much wisdom from all these faiths. Why should we deprive ourselves.? If you have any favourite verses please feel most welcome to share them.

Accepting the virtues and not the law of virtues practiced can get complicated without some type of segregation. Expectations of one will not be shared by others, so sometimes if only to honor the virtue of its adherent, separation is necessary if we are to remain true to our own. I do enjoy places like this. They offer a stage for the sharing of ideas and concepts, a place of assembly for the discourse and efforts of understanding.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Eh, this is getting to be a headache. Can you explain why my explanation does not work?

If I understood your explanation, you are saying, first, there will be a period of 50,000 years, then Judgement day comes.
I dont see how you prove this. There is no Hadith that says so. And I dont see this, in line with other verses of the Quran, as I explained.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It proves my point and everything you stated after is already refuted. You repeat same points and your mistranslations have been already been exposed.

I didnt translate those Hadithes. I gave you the hints in them. If you dont see it that way, fine.

 

[Link]

Don't you see, how this can be an example, that the Muslims argue with Qaim to reject Him? (The same way, other Ummah argued with their messengers?)

No, this has nothing to do with it. Your interpretation and that of your Prophets are impossible with the Quran. No one refuted Mohammad (s) in a similar manner.

If your Prophets did not acknowledge the Quran as 100% authentic, then it would not be a way to refute to them.

 

[Link]

If I understood your explanation, you are saying, first, there will be a period of 50,000 years, then Judgement day comes.
I dont see how you prove this. There is no Hadith that says so. And I dont see this, in line with other verses of the Quran, as I explained.

No. That's not the explanation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, this has nothing to do with it. Your interpretation and that of your Prophets are impossible with the Quran. No one refuted Mohammad (s) in a similar manner.

If your Prophets did not acknowledge the Quran as 100% authentic, then it would not be a way to refute to them.

I explained that in verse 32:5 it says a Day, which its measure is 1000 years from your reckoning, but in verse 70:4 it says as Day, which its measure is 50,000 years. It does not specify the unit of measurement.
In the 32:5, God specifies the unit of measurement is as per your reckoning, in the second case, He does not specify.
Why not? It is a valid question.

If you ponder, you would realize, it is because, when the Qaim comes, and says this 50,000 years is passed in a moment, the disbelievers disagree, but the believers will see, the Quran did not specify "as per your reckoning"


One who argues that, in this verse, the 50,000 years is as per human reckoning, he is adding something to the Quran, which is not there!

 

[Link]

I explained that in verse 32:5 it says a Day, which its measure is 1000 years from your reckoning, but in verse 70:4 it says as Day, which its measure is 50,000 years. It does not specify the unit of measurement.
In the 32:5, God specifies the unit of measurement is as per your reckoning, in the second case, He does not specify.
Why not? It is a valid question.

If you ponder, you would realize, it is because, when the Qaim comes, and says this 50,000 years is passed in a moment, the disbelievers disagree, but the believers will see, the Quran did not specify "as per your reckoning"


One who argues that, in this verse, the 50,000 years is as per human reckoning, he is adding something to the Quran, which is not there!

And I’ve already responded.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, this has nothing to do with it. Your interpretation and that of your Prophets are impossible with the Quran.

why not?

No one refuted Mohammad (s) in a similar manner.

yes, what you say is true, as this Hadith says:

Fadl b. Yasar heard Imam Baqir saying:

"When our Qa'im rises he will face so much difficulty from the people, that even the Prophet during the period of jahiliyya did not face."
Fadl asked: "Why should that be so?"
The Imam said:
When the Prophet was appointed people worshipped stones and wood. However, when our Qa'im arises people will interpret the ordinances of God against his interpretation, and will argue with him and dispute by means of the Qur'an.
By God, the justice of the Qa'im will enter inside their homes, just as the heat and the cold enter them.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And all this makes sense to Baha'is? Other than, because Abdul Baha' said so, why do you agree with his interpretation?

I don't know of any Baha'i who have joined because of this explanation. It does look like a long and convoluted explanation but then again that is the two thousand year history since Christ's ministry. So too the story of Islam since Muhammad heard the Angel Gabriel in the cave of Hira over 1,400 years ago. Like or hate the Baha'i Faith, its now been around 180 years.

What 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation does for me is it encourages me learn world history and learn about key events in regards the unfolding of the two largest and most influential religions on the planet. Through myth and metaphor we reflect on the journey about what makes these religions great and how corruption has contributed to their demise.

Look no further than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to recognize religion and the world is not as it should be.

Studying the book of Revelation as you have may not convince you to join the Baha'i Faith but it will help you understand the world as it is.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

That did not address what CG put in his post about the year 1260AH (1844AD), the year of the Declaration of the Bab.

Did you know that the Bab and the Iranians/Persians also use a third calendar? Those years are 1222 SH (Solar Hijri) on the Iranian/Persian calendar.

Today (2024 AD) is 1402 AH (Anno Hegirae) and 1445 SH. You might find this calendar converting website useful or interesting.

Years are about eleven days shorter in the Islamic calendar, a lunar calendar, than in either of the other two, which are solar calendars, so 50,000 years on a lunar calendar isn't the same length of time as 50,000 years on a solar calendar. Lunar calendars are based in synodic months, or the time from one new moon to the next. Twelve of these only take about 354 days. Solar calendars like the Gregorian calendar are based on the tropical year, or the time from one winter solstice to the next and are 365-366 days long. The length of the months are chosen to fill that duration.

And for completeness, lunisolar calendars like the Hebrew calendar, combine features of both. They alternate between 29- and 30-day months like the lunar calendars but use leap months every few years (seven every 19 years) to keep the holidays in the same seasons. This is how the sun gets into the calendar. There are 235 lunar cycles (synodic months) in 19 orbits around the sun (tropical years).

Sophistry is when language loses meaning and can mean multiple things - almost anything. When you say 50 000 years can pass in a moment that is sophistry.

That's not what the word sophistry normally means. Sophistry is fallacious and often deliberately deceptive (specious) argumentation. Somebody who knows that a given argument is fallacious is deceptively sophistic. Somebody who believes and repeats it without any intention to deceive is still making a sophistic (fallacious) argument but is not being deceptive. The arguments in defense of OT messianic prophecy foretelling Jesus are sophistry. Creationist arguments against evolution are sophistry. You can judge for yourself which of the people making these arguments is trying to deceive you and which have been deceived themselves.

You're describing ambiguity in your first sentence. And your second sentence is neither ambiguous nor sophistic. Its meaning is quite clear and not deceptive. Furthermore, it's not an argument and therefore cannot be said to contain a logical fallacy. I'd call it poetry or metaphor.