What if we accepted each others Religion?

[Vinayaka]

Some religions have to be right... completely right. Others are okay with people being on a different path.

Baha'is, depending on who and when you talk to them, say both. "Oh, your path is fine. Your religion is as good and equal to all the rest." Then they turn around and say, "Baha'u'llah is the messenger for today. All the other religions pointed to this day. He fulfills the promises made in all those other religion. He is the divine physician. Only his teachings can cure the ills of the world."

Yeah, maybe so. But I don't believe it... yet. If it's true, I'll believe it. But so far Baha'is haven't given me a good enough reason to believe... Along with JW's, Mormons, Fundy Christians, and countless other proselytizing religious movements.

Now your spiritual/religious beliefs fascinate me, because in all these years, you have never pushed them on me.

And I never will, lucky you.

 

[CG Didymus]

Day of judgment is 50 000 years of Ascension towards God per Quran. I think @InvestigateTruth said this was a scenario and the other was 1000 years and that God then picked the 1000 years. What he quotes is that a day with God is a thousand years that we reckon. So he sees Mohammad (s) till Bab as 1000 years and the day of God.

The problem is his interpretation is just conjecture that is obviously false. Day of judgment is indeed 50 000 years towards ascending to God and then even more after the ascension takes place. There is no contradiction and no need to say they are two different promises.

Rather the day with God being 1000 years, refers to how God and Angels assess every day. They slow down time and so do Jinn (evil forces included), and there is a long battle every day for every soul, but people don't see it. Imam of time is linked to this world but also to the higher worlds.

It can be said each day with us is 1000 years with God through this perspective.

There can be even be more meanings with this but how they annul the 50 000 years and ignore it, is strange to say the least.

They are interested in not knowing meaning of the Quran though. They just want to hammer their view on it. As warned about in 3:7, they follow unclear meanings which is condemned.

Yes, I didn't think of it before, but that whole thing in the Book of Revelation about the 1260 days depends on the Islamic calendar. It's still incredible that 1844 happens to be the year 1260. But why would it by prophesied in the Christian Scriptures but not in the Quran? It would have been so easy if somewhere it would have been mentioned that 1260 was an important date. And if what the Baha'i's say is true, then it is the most important date of all.

 

[Vinayaka]

If someone said that about her, I could just imagine what she'd say. I haven't directly responded to her posts for over a year. I think? Maybe it's been more than that? Hmmm? Maybe less? Sorry, I'm a little confused. Oh my God, she's right.

I'm confused too. Blind, dead, anti-truth, Godless, diseased, deceived, a liar, ... lol. Amongst the non-Baha'i in these discussions, I just have to win the prize. You're second.

 

[Vinayaka]

If someone said that about her, I could just imagine what she'd say.

Ditto. To her credit, she changed it to 'undecided'.

 

[CG Didymus]

It's only complicated if we make it so CG. The explanations are simple enough.

Regards Tony

No, I don't see them as being simple. I think they are very confusing... Oops, I mean they are not clear. Three "Wows" in the Book of Revelation are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Yes, simple for a Baha'i to say. But in context the "Wows" are more bad things that are befalling on the people of the world.

The number or mark of the beast, a mark that gets put on the forehead or hand of people, becomes a year, 666AD?

It is easy, though, easy for Baha'is to believe it all.

Just like Christians tell me how easy it is to understand God's plan for salvation... First Adam sinned. All creation was cursed. God gave his people the Law to show them that they could never be good enough to save themselves. So, God sent the perfect sacrifice, his Son, Jesus, to pay for our sins and to conquer Satan and death. Do you want to be saved? It's easy accept the Lord Jesus as your savior.

Yeah, easy. But there are strings attached. What those Christians mean doesn't include any other beliefs from any other religion. No Baha'u'llah, no Muhammad, none of the rest. That's very easy. Just accept what Christians tell you and all is good.

All religions are easy, for those that believe. The Baha'i Faith tells you what is true, and you believe it... easy.

 

[Vinayaka]

All religions are easy, for those that believe. The Baha'i Faith tells you what is true, and you believe it... easy.

I think that when you look at this deeply, it's quite insightful in understanding the nature of humanity.

 

[Link]

No, I don't see them as being simple. I think they are very confusing... Oops, I mean they are not clear. Three "Wows" in the Book of Revelation are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Yes, simple for a Baha'i to say. But in context the "Wows" are more bad things that are befalling on the people of the world.

The number or mark of the beast, a mark that gets put on the forehead or hand of people, becomes a year, 666AD?

It is easy, though, easy for Baha'is to believe it all.

Just like Christians tell me how easy it is to understand God's plan for salvation... First Adam sinned. All creation was cursed. God gave his people the Law to show them that they could never be good enough to save themselves. So, God sent the perfect sacrifice, his Son, Jesus, to pay for our sins and to conquer Satan and death. Do you want to be saved? It's easy accept the Lord Jesus as your savior.

Yeah, easy. But there are strings attached. What those Christians mean doesn't include any other beliefs from any other religion. No Baha'u'llah, no Muhammad, none of the rest. That's very easy. Just accept what Christians tell you and all is good.

All religions are easy, for those that believe. The Baha'i Faith tells you what is true, and you believe it... easy.

Salam

The issue of religions is a difficult thing for everyone. Dismissing them can be easy and so can picking one. Finding the truth can be easy too. Sometimes you just got to stand back and say what do you want. At the same time, people get wrapped up into their paradigm.

If you want God, then who cares what people say. If you want the world and ignore God, then pick that, but be honest about it. Say to yourself you are risking the next world for this world and hoping that the Creator turns out to be merciful more then Abrahamic faiths make him out to be.

If a book/writings don't have an effect on you, ask God to show you signs in form of living miracles. If there is no person on earth who will, then story is over, you tried and asked God.

You can tell God there are so many religions, each with their own preachers, you are confused, and want signs in form of miracles just like past people were sent with those signs.

Tell him translations of Quran don't convince you - it maybe different in Arabic, and you want to know the truth. Tell him if there is a living guide on earth, then please, let him show up to me and guide me.

Do this often and make your intention sincere. If it fails, then you lost nothing. I don't see how a God worthy of worship would not respond to you. I maybe wrong, but let's see.

Tell him you need to know he exists and easiest way is through miracles. If he doesn't respond, you did your best.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Day of judgment is 50 000 years of Ascension towards God per Quran. I think @InvestigateTruth said this was a scenario and the other was 1000 years and that God then picked the 1000 years. What he quotes is that a day with God is a thousand years that we reckon. So he sees Mohammad (s) till Bab as 1000 years and the day of God.

In our view interpretation of the Quran is given by the Qaim, who is the Bab.

"The Exalted One (the Bab)—may my life be offered up for Him—hath said that on the day of His Revelation all these events came to pass swifter than the twinkling of an eye, and that “fifty thousand years” were traversed in a single hour. If all these momentous events took place in a single moment..."

Light of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library

Tablets of ‘Abdul-Bahá describing aspects of the life of Bahá’u’lláh including the tribulations He suffered, events in His homeland, the purpose and greatness of His Cause, and the nature and significance of His Covenant.

www.bahai.org

The problem is his interpretation is just conjecture that is obviously false. Day of judgment is indeed 50 000 years towards ascending to God and then even more after the ascension takes place. There is no contradiction and no need to say they are two different promises.

Rather the day with God being 1000 years, refers to how God and Angels assess every day. They slow down time and so do Jinn (evil forces included), and there is a long battle every day for every soul, but people don't see it. Imam of time is linked to this world but also to the higher worlds.

It can be said each day with us is 1000 years with God through this perspective.

There can be even be more meanings with this but how they annul the 50 000 years and ignore it, is strange to say the least.

They are interested in not knowing meaning of the Quran though. They just want to hammer their view on it. As warned about in 3:7, they follow unclear meanings which is condemned.

None knows its interpretation except God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge (infallible chosen ones) (3:7)

 

[Link]

In our view interpretation of the Quran is given by the Qaim, who is the Bab.

"The Exalted One (the Bab)—may my life be offered up for Him—hath said that on the day of His Revelation all these events came to pass swifter than the twinkling of an eye, and that “fifty thousand years” were traversed in a single hour. If all these momentous events took place in a single moment..."

Light of the World | Bahá’í Reference Library

Tablets of ‘Abdul-Bahá describing aspects of the life of Bahá’u’lláh including the tribulations He suffered, events in His homeland, the purpose and greatness of His Cause, and the nature and significance of His Covenant.

www.bahai.org

None knows its interpretation except God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge (infallible chosen ones) (3:7)

It's too easy isn't. Twist every verse left right and center.

 

[JustGeorge]

Salam

The issue of religions is a difficult thing for everyone. Dismissing them can be easy and so can picking one. Finding the truth can be easy too. Sometimes you just got to stand back and say what do you want. At the same time, people get wrapped up into their paradigm.

If you want God, then who cares what people say. If you want the world and ignore God, then pick that, but be honest about it. Say to yourself you are risking the next world for this world and hoping that the Creator turns out to be merciful more then Abrahamic faiths make him out to be.

If a book/writings don't have an effect on you, ask God to show you signs in form of living miracles. If there is no person on earth who will, then story is over, you tried and asked God.

You can tell God there are so many religions, each with their own preachers, you are confused, and want signs in form of miracles just like past people were sent with those signs.

Tell him translations of Quran don't convince you - it maybe different in Arabic, and you want to know the truth. Tell him if there is a living guide on earth, then please, let him show up to me and guide me.

Do this often and make your intention sincere. If it fails, then you lost nothing. I don't see how a God worthy of worship would not respond to you. I maybe wrong, but let's see.

Tell him you need to know he exists and easiest way is through miracles. If he doesn't respond, you did your best.

The trouble with this is, if you tell someone you asked for a miracle and received that miracle, if your religion doesn't line up with theirs, they insist it wasn't a miracle, but that you were deceived.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's too easy isn't. Twist every verse left right and center.

1. Did you read the Hadithes well @Link ?

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمد بْنِ عبدويه الجمال، حَدَّثَنا عَبد الرَّحْمَنِ بْن عُمَر بْن يزيد رسته، حَدَّثَنا عَبد الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مَهْدِيٍّ، حَدَّثَنا هُشَيْمٌ عَنْ مُجَالِدٍ عَنْ عُبَيد اللَّهِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ، عَن أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ قَال رَسُول اللهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيهِ وَسلَّمَ: لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَكُونَ السَّنَةُ كَالشَّهْرِ وَالشَّهْرُ كَالْجُمُعَةِ وَالْجُمُعَةِ كَالْيَوْمِ وَالْيَوْمُ كالساعة والساعة كحريق السعفة.

الكامل في ضعفاء الرجال - ابن عدي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

Can you pleaee translate this? Doesn't it say, on Day of Resurrection the events happens very fast, such that a year is like a month, a month is like a week, a week is like a day, and a day is like an hour, and an our is like a moment of flame of fire?

2. If you read the verse carefully you see that, in the case of fifty thousand years, it does not say, according to your reckoning. But in the case of 1000 years, it says, according to your reckoning!



˹through which˺ the angels and the ˹holy˺ spirit1 will ascend to Him on a Day fifty thousand years in length"

تَعْرُجُ ٱلْمَلَـٰٓئِكَةُ وَٱلرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ فِى يَوْمٍۢ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُۥ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍۢ

˹through which˺ the angels and the ˹holy˺ spirit will ascend to Him on a Day fifty thousand years in length."

See, the verse does not say, 50,000 as per your reckoning. It says, a day, which is fifty thousand years, meaning that Day itself is worthy of 50000 years! It is because it is a Day that Qaim Receives the New Revelation!
Consider the word is مقداره. It is not تعدون.

 

[Link]

The trouble with this is, if you tell someone you asked for a miracle and received that miracle, if your religion doesn't line up with theirs, they insist it wasn't a miracle, but that you were deceived.

Salam

There is no trouble because you can keep in private.

You don't tell people. Strange life it will be, no one knows you, but you don't care, God knows you and that is all that really matters.

However, a soul when shown miracle, can rebel further and hate God and his chosen deeply. This is my view of why God delays such miracles on an individual basis.

However, if one sincerely turns to God and promises to accept it if shown, and keeps asking, I think it's an obligation on God to show such signs.

 

[Link]

1. Did you read the Hadithes well @Link ?

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمد بْنِ عبدويه الجمال، حَدَّثَنا عَبد الرَّحْمَنِ بْن عُمَر بْن يزيد رسته، حَدَّثَنا عَبد الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مَهْدِيٍّ، حَدَّثَنا هُشَيْمٌ عَنْ مُجَالِدٍ عَنْ عُبَيد اللَّهِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ، عَن أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ قَال رَسُول اللهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيهِ وَسلَّمَ: لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى تَكُونَ السَّنَةُ كَالشَّهْرِ وَالشَّهْرُ كَالْجُمُعَةِ وَالْجُمُعَةِ كَالْيَوْمِ وَالْيَوْمُ كالساعة والساعة كحريق السعفة.

الكامل في ضعفاء الرجال - ابن عدي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

Can you pleaee translate this? Doesn't it say, on Day of Resurrection the events happens very fast, such that a year is like a month, a month is like a week, a week is like a day, and a day is like an hour, and an our is like a moment of flame of fire?

2. If you read the verse carefully you see that, in the case of fifty thousand years, it does not say, according to your reckoning. But in the case of 1000 years, it says, according to your reckoning!



˹through which˺ the angels and the ˹holy˺ spirit1 will ascend to Him on a Day fifty thousand years in length"

تَعْرُجُ ٱلْمَلَـٰٓئِكَةُ وَٱلرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ فِى يَوْمٍۢ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُۥ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍۢ

˹through which˺ the angels and the ˹holy˺ spirit will ascend to Him on a Day fifty thousand years in length."

See, the verse does not say, 50,000 as per your reckoning. It says, a day, which is fifty thousand years, meaning that Day itself is worthy of 50000 years! It is because it is a Day that Qaim Receives the New Revelation!

Bro, you are convincing who? You think anyone is impressed with this sophistry? No one cares. I think might even block you for the betterment of this forum.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bro, you are convincing who? You think anyone is impressed with this sophistry? No one cares. I think might even block you for the betterment of this forum.

That is not correct, many people care and are impressed that there is so much available. So good on @InvestigateTruth for continuing to answer you, despite all the unfavourable replies.

If I could read Arabic, I would most likely do the same.

The silence you offer when a valid Hadith is presented, is evidence enough as to its impact. The accusation of sophistry is a distraction from the inability to negate the line of reasoning offered.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Baha'i Faith tells you what is true, and you believe it... easy.

Bahaullah offered a Message which we can read and determine if it is true.

Firstly, to do that, one has to determine if Bahaullah was truthful, an honest person in life. Baha'u'llah asked us to do just that.

When we find Baha'ullah was trustworthy and truthful, we can then read the explanations in the same light. As such, a large amount of doubt and previous doctrine does not cloud the explanations.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I didn't think of it before, but that whole thing in the Book of Revelation about the 1260 days depends on the Islamic calendar. It's still incredible that 1844 happens to be the year 1260. But why would it by prophesied in the Christian Scriptures but not in the Quran? It would have been so easy if somewhere it would have been mentioned that 1260 was an important date. And if what the Baha'i's say is true, then it is the most important date of all.

In the Quran it is written in another way

"The twelfth Imam disappeared in the year 260 AH, the line of rule on earth from Muhammad had ended.

Verse 32:5 offers "He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.

1260 is exactly a thousand years after the disappearance of the 12th Imam.

There are also predictions of the year 60 (1260) that I would have ro track down again.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Bro, you are convincing who? You think anyone is impressed with this sophistry? No one cares. I think might even block you for the betterment of this forum.

It is more like sorcery than sophistry, isn't it?!
Bro, if it is a sophistry, try to expose it, through logical arguments or evidences.
I am just giving you, what I believe to be true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Undecided is a reasonable approach, as shown by how many agnostics there are.

I agree that agnosticism is a reasonable approach given there is no proof that any God exists....
Undecided is only troublesome when the person who is undecided wants to decide.
That 'appears' to be the case with @CG Didymus but that is only my impression, as well as a little projection on my part.

I am undecided about a lot of things in my life, but if I had been undecided about something as important as God and a religion for as long as he has been I'd be completely insane! We all only have so much time to decide and nobody knows what happened after death. That is not a gamble I would ever be willing to take.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ultimately, religious discussion is what I'm here on the forums for. How did your meeting go?

Our interfaith meeting went well but it is not without its challenges. I've been part of this group for six years and was chairman one year. I was elected into the role one week prior to the Mosque shootings.

Christchurch mosque shootings - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

We're coming up to five years so there was some discussion around whether or not a restorative justice process might be helpful. The Israeli-Palestinian situation is one of the most disturbing world events that we have to navigate carefully as a group.

He took a birth intentionally.

I wonder, when they became aware they were Vishnu... were they always aware? Come aware later? I don't know myself. Stuff I think on, but have no answers.

As to choosing the body, it was planned before the birth of the incarnations. The prospective parents in past lives had been granted the boon of one day having him as a child in future lives.

Thanks for that explanation. It's a difficult question to answer in regards both Krishna and Jesus. It's good to hear a quintessentially Hindu explanation.

think sometimes the language in general is a barrier between faiths of different roots. I don't want to use East/West here, because I think the issue includes the indigenous traditions. But, its not impossible to talk circles around each other because while two may use the same term, it may mean very different things to the two in the conversation(and they may not initially realize that).

The obvious difference is in theistic concepts for example God meaning very different things to people's of different faiths. For that reason I like Buddha's focus on practical living and his avoidance of commenting on questions about God and God's.

Hinduism, there is the concept of Brahman. Brahman isn't a God(and can be difficult to explain, so bear with me). Brahman just is. He/she/it/all of the above is where all things come from, and all things return. Brahman isn't aware of us, though, much like the bacteria on our arm isn't aware of us, either. Many Hindus seek union with this divine source, which is said to bring both dissolution and bliss. Brahman creates, destroys endlessly, resting, waking.

As to my own personal Supreme, I relate to this concept the best in Shiva. I see the cosmos in him, the dance of Nataraja being an indicator of the movement of the universe down to the very atom. (Fun fact: there is a Shiva statue in his Nataraja form in front of the CERN building). I learn about the nature of things through his stories. (Perhaps the story that has meant the most to me is that of him and Sati, the first incarnation of his wife).

But, because I am a polytheist, I do not solely depend on Shiva for all things. I commune with different deities for different reasons.

Thanks for sharing that. I'm trying to better understand Brahman and Shiva.

What does it look like to you?

I'm not particularly concerned with self improvement. My current focus is to develop a low fees medical clinic and to reduce barriers to accessing high quality health care in a timely manner. Its good to be networking with social services, charities and ethnic groups to better meet the needs of those who are struggling in the community. That is my faith in action.

What does it look like for you?

 

[Link]

It is more like sorcery than sophistry, isn't it?!
Bro, if it is a sophistry, try to expose it, through logical arguments or evidences.
I am just giving you, what I believe to be true.

Sophistry is when language loses meaning and can mean multiple things - almost anything. When you say 50 000 years can pass in a moment that is sophistry. It doesn't make sense. But you play this game because day of judgment as explained in the Quran is incompatible with the concept your Prophets came with.

There's no reasoning with you because language has no meaning with you. It can mean anything you want it to.

I'm probably going to block you after a few posts.