What if we accepted each others Religion?

[Dawnofhope]

I,'m sorry to hear she struggles. I hope she has good support in the Baha'i community.

The family are well supported. In some ways we are a close knit community.

Yes, we are both Hindu, but I wouldn't consider our beliefs identical. There are some marked differences, but they're kinda nuanced and difficult to tackle without getting really into detail(and boring the socks off of folks).

That's is very good to have those connections through faith.

It doesn't matter at all that there are differences and diversity in religion IMHO. I personally view religion as one in the sense that religion is religion as science is science. In that sense someone who believes in Buddha, worships a Supreme Being that the Japanese call Kami-sama and attends Baha'i meetings and study classes is part of the same faith. Obviously not everyone sees it that way including some Baha'i and many on this forum. It doesn't matter.

I think without my faith, I'd have straight up broken down by now. I can't say my religious beliefs always bring comfort, but they at least bring reason, and help me understand my place in the cosmos.

That is what I thought and it has been my experience too.

can't even pick, there's so many different places! The story of the Pandavas drinking from a forbidden lake, and dying(except for Yudhishtira) and the resulting conversation between Yudhishtira and Yama disguised as a Yaksha is a favorite part. The ending scene in which the Pandavas are climbing up the mountain to meet their deaths is another moving part(to me). Bhima meeting Hanuman in the woods is a fun one. I also enjoyed the conversation between Draupadi and Satyabhama. All could be relatively quick reads.

There's just so much to enjoy...

Thanks for sharing that. One of these days...

see! That makes sense.

Do Baha'is honor both of these figures as divine, then

Many Baha'is do.

'm not terribly educated in the sphere of Christian theology, but from an outsider's point of view, it seems like Yahweh sent Jesus to get some works done for his sake. Krishna was Vishnu coming himself. Krishna was a bodily form of Vishnu that came to the earthly plane to bring in the Kali Yuga.

Jesus was a man sent by Yahweh for a particular purpose as you say. Christian's view Him as the Son of God and God Himself. I would add in the Holy Spirit. The various Christian creeds that refer to the trinity attempt to reconcile these different and somewhat contrary aspects of God.

There is also a view of dispensationalism or religious time periods in Christianity that appears similar to Hinduism.

Dispensationalism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

My own understanding of the God of Abraham is probably going to be much different from many folks, and I hope I can explain without being confusing(or offensive)... I simply don't view him as an almighty figure. He seems to me to have been a local deity, and the god to the Jewish people. Many others choose to worship him as what we'd call in Hinduism, an Ishta Devata, or chosen Divine ideal(and there's nothing wrong with that). Any deity can be chosen and worshipped as Ishta Devata. Personally, I see him about on par with Indra, Zeus, Thor, etc(on par with, but not the same, as I consider them all different entities).

When it comes to Vishnu, I view him on more on a cosmic level; he's the personified face of the force that preserves the universe.

(The above is simply my opinion. )

Thank you for sharing your views of the God of Abraham. I really appreciate it. As you will know there is unlikely to be too many Jews, Christians or Muslims who would view the God of Abraham or a par with Zeus and Thor. However, I asked the question and I'm grateful for the honesty of your reply.

Do you view Zeus and Thor as real gods or mythical?

Interesting! That's a lot! I don't suppose he divided himself up, too?

I do think Solomon and Krishna differ in their marriages in attitude. I've only heard second hand stories about Solomon, so excuse any mistakes, but it seemed as if Solomon sought out these women for his own pleasures as well... With Krishna, it was more "I accept".

Solomon achieved many things including being King of a united Israel, being a Prophet of God and rebuilding the Jewish temple. He was also a mortal man with a flawed character. He didn't divide himself, rather devoted a large portion of his life to gratifying sexual desires and Yahweh was displeased.

the Gita, it states that whatever you offer Krishna, so long as its offered in love, it will be accepted. Princess Rukmini sought out Krishna as a husband. He accepted. Jambhavati was offered to him as a wife. He accepted. It wasn't that he physically lusted for these women, or desired them for himself... He happily accepted their love. Many of them came from a one time rescue... these thousands of freed women wanted to become his wives... he accepted. There's even a story of him straightening the back of a hunchback prostitute, and, when she joyfully offered her services, he accepted those, too. When questioned on why he did such a thing, he responded "that is the only way she knew how to offer love. I will happily accept it".

That makes sense. At the heart of any faith and religious narrative there must be love otherwise what are we about?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then it is easy, after the fact, to say what just happened, or what this person just did fulfilled such and such prophecy. But when it's not so clear, then it depends on believe the interpretation of the person claiming it has been fulfilled.

It can be done with probability, with a selection of prophecies, tricky but possible.

Examples

Messiah comes from the East.
Messiah entered by a Gate facing East
Messiah comes from Assyria
Messiah will be connected to Mt Carmel
Messiah has a New Name.

Now determine all the claimant's who are the "Messiah", the number will no be a great deal maybe hundreds and apply each of the selection to them.

People have actually done this for Jesus and Baha'u'llah and come up with significant probability factors, that it was more than likely not chance that they fulfilled prophecy.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It can be done with probability, with a selection of prophecies, tricky but possible.

Examples

Messiah comes from the East.
Messiah entered by a Gate facing East
Messiah comes from Assyria
Messiah will be connected to Mt Carmel
Messiah has a New Name.

Now determine all the claimant's who are the "Messiah", the number will no be a great deal maybe hundreds and apply each of the selection to them.

People have actually done this for Jesus and Baha'u'llah and come up with significant probability factors, that it was more than likely not chance that they fulfilled prophecy.

Regards Tony

How many of those actually say, "The Messiah" will come from here or enter there or be connected to this?

Now tell me all the Jewish prophecies about the Messiah that haven't been fulfilled? Now... the prophecies that Christians believe must be fulfilled before Jesus returns?

But Baha'is claim Baha'u'llah also fulfilled Buddhist and Hindu prophecies. So, tell me where does Kalki come from? The East? Persia? Assyria? How about Maitreya? Where does he come from, and what does he do?

You've got your reasons to believe. I've even seen a Baha'i article that makes Kalki and Maitreya prophecies fit into being about Baha'u'llah. And that's the problem. A religion can make some verses into prophecies when they weren't meant to be prophecies. And interpret prophecies in a symbolic fashion to make them mean what they want. When they do that... What is the probability that their interpretations will fit perfectly?

Here's one of the Baha'i articles about Kalki. And here's one about Maitreya. I suppose you've read them, but just in case, go ahead and take a look.

I'm sure you have no doubt about how Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies in every religion about the coming of the promised one/messiah. But do you agree with the writer of the gospel of Matthew about the verses he claims were fulfilled prophecy?

Here's an article about how it is questionable.

The Holy Spirit is responsible for Mary’s pregnancy and an angel from heaven allays Joseph’s fears. All this happens to fulfill a prophecy of the Hebrew Scriptures (1:23). Indeed, so does everything else in the narrative: Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem (2:6), the family’s flight to Egypt (2:14) Herod’s slaughter of the innocent children of Bethlehem (2:18) and the family’s decision to relocate in Nazareth (2:23). These are stories that occur only in Matthew, and they are all said to be fulfillments of prophecy.​

​

The virgin birth, the flight to Egypt, the slaughter of the children and the rest... all cherry-picked verses. But he weaves them into his gospel. Did those things really happen? Or did he make them up in order to claim some vague reference to a verse in the Bible was a fulfilled prophecy?

To me, that's very similar to what Baha'is have done. Like with "Persia" taken over at one time by "Assyria", therefore it's okay to say the Messiah will come from Assyria? That'd be like saying "He will come from Mexico, when the person comes from Texas, and then say that at one time Texas was part of Mexico.

Vague, cherry-picked verses that don't specifically say "The Messiah" will do this or that... don't mean much to me. If you're okay with them, that's fine... I guess.

 

[JustGeorge]

The family are well supported. In some ways we are a close knit community.

"In some ways." Are there other ways in which its not as tight?

That's is very good to have those connections through faith.

It doesn't matter at all that there are differences and diversity in religion IMHO. I personally view religion as one in the sense that religion is religion as science is science. In that sense someone who believes in Buddha, worships a Supreme Being that the Japanese call Kami-sama and attends Baha'i meetings and study classes is part of the same faith. Obviously not everyone sees it that way including some Baha'i and many on this forum. It doesn't matter.

I find beauty and am in awe at all the different ways(manifesting through the worlds' religions, major and minor) the Divine has presented itself.

No, not everyone agrees. I don't think everyone has to agree; there's beauty in that, too. I just think its a shame to fight about it. It seems like to fight over it is to miss the point. Of course, there are times one may have to defend simply because of the occasional ugliness that appears in he world, but if it can be avoided, all the better.

Many Baha'is do.

You say many Baha'is do. What are your personal thoughts?

Jesus was a man sent by Yahweh for a particular purpose as you say. Christian's view Him as the Son of God and God Himself. I would add in the Holy Spirit. The various Christian creeds that refer to the trinity attempt to reconcile these different and somewhat contrary aspects of God.

I remember Sunday School teachers trying to present the idea of the trinity, and singing a song to the tune of a child's song to try to get it into our head.

What are your thoughts on Jesus? The trinity?

There is also a view of dispensationalism or religious time periods in Christianity that appears similar to Hinduism.

Dispensationalism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hm. It also brings back memories of studies that showed the ages play out in astrological terms(I'm sure someone, somewhere on the forums will read this and think of the Age of Aquarius).

Thank you for sharing your views of the God of Abraham. I really appreciate it. As you will know there is unlikely to be too many Jews, Christians or Muslims who would view the God of Abraham or a par with Zeus and Thor. However, I asked the question and I'm grateful for the honesty of your reply.

I understand my opinion isn't going to be overly popular with most folks of the Abrahamic faiths. One I usually keep to myself unless asked(as you've done).

Do you view Zeus and Thor as real gods or mythical?

I view them as very real. I spent approximately 15 years in the NeoPagan circle, and I view it as my 'roots'. I have had some very profound experiences with Pagan deities as well.

Interesting you mention Thor. I had a roommate last year that was a Thor devotee. She wanted to do a 'Thor's night' in which we'd take time to read stories related to him and share a drink. We did this, and pizza goes well with beer... she wanted to order a pizza, so we did that, too.

The deliveryman arrived, and I went to get the pizza... and found he had a giant Mjolnir pendant on him, and lots of other Norse jewelry and tattoos. I praised him for them, but was laughing when I returned to her... "I think Thor approves of your devotion." I told her. What a sign! Not a common look in the Midwestern US.

Solomon achieved many things including being King of a united Israel, being a Prophet of God and rebuilding the Jewish temple. He was also a mortal man with a flawed character. He didn't divide himself, rather devoted a large portion of his life to gratifying sexual desires and Yahweh was displeased.

I'd say we all have a downfall somewhere. Good he was able to accomplish positive as well.

That makes sense. At the heart of any faith and religious narrative there must be love otherwise what are we about?

Agreed!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How many of those actually say, "The Messiah" will come from here or enter there or be connected to this?

That is the first thing to determine.

The rest of the post is nullified by this step.

The Prophecies need to he extracted and agreed upon. There will be many diverse prophecies and diverse opinions, thus an agreed foundation for each prophecy will need to be set.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

How many of those actually say, "The Messiah" will come from here or enter there or be connected to this?

Now tell me all the Jewish prophecies about the Messiah that haven't been fulfilled? Now... the prophecies that Christians believe must be fulfilled before Jesus returns?

But Baha'is claim Baha'u'llah also fulfilled Buddhist and Hindu prophecies. So, tell me where does Kalki come from? The East? Persia? Assyria? How about Maitreya? Where does he come from, and what does he do?

You've got your reasons to believe. I've even seen a Baha'i article that makes Kalki and Maitreya prophecies fit into being about Baha'u'llah. And that's the problem. A religion can make some verses into prophecies when they weren't meant to be prophecies. And interpret prophecies in a symbolic fashion to make them mean what they want. When they do that... What is the probability that their interpretations will fit perfectly?

Here's one of the Baha'i articles about Kalki. And here's one about Maitreya. I suppose you've read them, but just in case, go ahead and take a look.

I'm sure you have no doubt about how Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies in every religion about the coming of the promised one/messiah. But do you agree with the writer of the gospel of Matthew about the verses he claims were fulfilled prophecy?

Here's an article about how it is questionable.

The Holy Spirit is responsible for Mary’s pregnancy and an angel from heaven allays Joseph’s fears. All this happens to fulfill a prophecy of the Hebrew Scriptures (1:23). Indeed, so does everything else in the narrative: Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem (2:6), the family’s flight to Egypt (2:14) Herod’s slaughter of the innocent children of Bethlehem (2:18) and the family’s decision to relocate in Nazareth (2:23). These are stories that occur only in Matthew, and they are all said to be fulfillments of prophecy.​

​

The virgin birth, the flight to Egypt, the slaughter of the children and the rest... all cherry-picked verses. But he weaves them into his gospel. Did those things really happen? Or did he make them up in order to claim some vague reference to a verse in the Bible was a fulfilled prophecy?

To me, that's very similar to what Baha'is have done. Like with "Persia" taken over at one time by "Assyria", therefore it's okay to say the Messiah will come from Assyria? That'd be like saying "He will come from Mexico, when the person comes from Texas, and then say that at one time Texas was part of Mexico.

Vague, cherry-picked verses that don't specifically say "The Messiah" will do this or that... don't mean much to me. If you're okay with them, that's fine... I guess.

This could be useful. Kalki - Wikipedia to compare to the Baha'i article, for those interested.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is the first thing to determine.

The rest of the post is nullified by this step.

The Prophecies need to he extracted and agreed upon. There will be many diverse prophecies and diverse opinions, thus an agreed foundation for each prophecy will need to be set.

Regards Tony

And just what do you do with the people that don't believe in the concept of prophecy at all?

 

[CG Didymus]

That is the first thing to determine.

The rest of the post is nullified by this step.

The Prophecies need to he extracted and agreed upon. There will be many diverse prophecies and diverse opinions, thus an agreed foundation for each prophecy will need to be set.

Regards Tony

Well, that all depends on who we're talking to. Ask a Jew which verses are Messianic prophecies and if anyone has fulfilled them. Then ask a Christian and a Muslim and a Baha'i. Then ask those Hindus that believe in Krishna and Kalki. Then ask those Buddhists that believe in Maitreya.

What's important for you and I is that you believe Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all of them. If you're happy with the interpretations, what can I say? Like I pointed out, I'm not even happy with what Christians believe as fulfilled prophecies. The prophecies in the beginning of Matthew's gospel all sound fake and made up to me.

And the one that involves both Christians and Baha'is, and the one that I mention all the time, is the alleged virgin birth. Out of context? one verse? None of the other verses describe Jesus. The boy in Isaiah is not Jesus. He is somebody in Isaiah's time that grew to a certain age, and when he reached that age, the two enemy kings of the Jews were dead.

Why do Baha'is believe or even need the virgin birth to be true? It is so easily made into a symbolic story. So, why do Baha'is believe it literally happened? But you do. And I think that it is very possibly a made-up story in order to fulfill a verse that they make into a make-believe prophecy.

Now there is no doubt in my mind that the Baha'i Faith can bring a lot of good to the world. I just can't believe everything it teaches.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well, that all depends on who we're talking to. Ask a Jew which verses are Messianic prophecies and if anyone has fulfilled them. Then ask a Christian and a Muslim and a Baha'i. Then ask those Hindus that believe in Krishna and Kalki. Then ask those Buddhists that believe in Maitreya.

What's important for you and I is that you believe Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all of them. If you're happy with the interpretations, what can I say? Like I pointed out, I'm not even happy with what Christians believe as fulfilled prophecies. The prophecies in the beginning of Matthew's gospel all sound fake and made up to me.

And the one that involves both Christians and Baha'is, and the one that I mention all the time, is the alleged virgin birth. Out of context? one verse? None of the other verses describe Jesus. The boy in Isaiah is not Jesus. He is somebody in Isaiah's time that grew to a certain age, and when he reached that age, the two enemy kings of the Jews were dead.

Why do Baha'is believe or even need the virgin birth to be true? It is so easily made into a symbolic story. So, why do Baha'is believe it literally happened? But you do. And I think that it is very possibly a made-up story in order to fulfill a verse that they make into a make-believe prophecy.

Now there is no doubt in my mind that the Baha'i Faith can bring a lot of good to the world. I just can't believe everything it teaches.

CG, what do you think of the idea of prophecy in general? Do you think it's scientifically possible to accurately predict the future?

 

[Trailblazer]

Now there is no doubt in my mind that the Baha'i Faith can bring a lot of good to the world. I just can't believe everything it teaches.

I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation, a Messenger of God, so I am a Baha'i, even though I can't believe everything that the Baha'i Faith teaches.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And just what do you do with the people that don't believe in the concept of prophecy at all?

They do as they please Vinayaka, as they always have done.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

CG, what do you think of the idea of prophecy in general? Do you think it's scientifically possible to accurately predict the future?

Time is relative, that is what Einstein offered.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

In some ways." Are there other ways in which its not as tight?

A community is only as good as what it's members bring. I personally regret losing touch with a few people I haven't seen in a while.

No, not everyone agrees. I don't think everyone has to agree; there's beauty in that, too. I just think its a shame to fight about it. It seems like to fight over it is to miss the point. Of course, there are times one may have to defend simply because of the occasional ugliness that appears in he world, but if it can be avoided, all the better.

I agree. We're both able to converse freely without any need to agree or convince the other about the truth as we see it.

You say many Baha'is do. What are your personal thoughts?

I see both Krishna and Jesus as real people who lived, walked the earth and were outstanding spiritual educators. They were outstanding in regards the extent to which they manifested God. Their spiritual capacity is beyond the capacity of mortal men. They are intermediary between man and God. Through prayer and meditation one can pray to them, through them or directly to God.

They are Manifestations of God, but they are not literally God or gods. They are not literal incarnations of God. Beyond that they are beyond human comprehension and without peer.

That is how I see Krishna and Jesus. I view them as equals.

remember Sunday School teachers trying to present the idea of the trinity, and singing a song to the tune of a child's song to try to get it into our head.

What are your thoughts on Jesus? The trinity?

As above.

Jesus was the 'Son of God'. He wasn't the son of God in the sense you or I have had sons. Rather it is title Jesus and His followers identified with to assist us better understand His role in the world and his relationship to God.

The Gospel of John portrays Jesus as being God. He is not literally God incarnate but the mouthpiece for God. It is as if the image of the heavenly sun were perfectly reflected in a mirror. Through the mirror we see the sun. The mirror is not the sun but the means we see the sun. If the mirror were to declare itself to be the sun, this would be the truth. Through the mirror, the sun is perfectly reflected. If the mirror were to deny being the sun, this too is true.

The Holy Spirit are like the rays the the sun reflected from through the mirror. It is what animates us to reflect God's teachings and spirit.

The Trinity is a doctrine or the invention of the church to explain the relationship between God ( the Father), the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a useful tool for understanding these inter-relationships. However I don't consider God to be triune or three.

Hm. It also brings back memories of studies that showed the ages play out in astrological terms(I'm sure someone, somewhere on the forums will read this and think of the Age of Aquarius).

Most religions I'm familiar make some distinction about differing periods or eras.

understand my opinion isn't going to be overly popular with most folks of the Abrahamic faiths. One I usually keep to myself unless asked(as you've done).

I enjoyed your explanation though of course its not what I believe. Similarly I wouldn't expect you to agree that Krishna is a Manifestation of God.

ay we all have a downfall somewhere. Good he was able to accomplish positive as well.

That's about it. We're all flawed and few of us attain the perfection we strive for. We may as well do some good in the meantime while hoping to rise above our lower nature. Life is short.

 

[JustGeorge]

A community is only as good as what it's members bring. I personally regret losing touch with a few people I haven't seen in a while.

Understandable. I miss the guys from the Buddhist group.

I agree. We're both able to converse freely without any need to agree or convince the other about the truth as we see it.

Indeed.

I'd almost never try to convince anyone out of their religious beliefs; its part of what makes a person what they are. The only time I'd make an exception would be is if the belief is causing harm... and then it wouldn't be to adopt my faith, by to find a more positive focus in their own(had to do this a few times in the past with friends).

I see both Krishna and Jesus as real people who lived, walked the earth and were outstanding spiritual educators. They were outstanding in regards the extent to which they manifested God. Their spiritual capacity is beyond the capacity of mortal men. They are intermediary between man and God. Through prayer and meditation one can pray to them, through them or directly to God.

How do you think they gained these elevated roles?

They are Manifestations of God, but they are not literally God or gods. They are not literal incarnations of God. Beyond that they are beyond human comprehension and without peer.

What makes it possible that a person becomes a manifestation of God?

That is how I see Krishna and Jesus. I view them as equals.

As above.

Jesus was the 'Son of God'. He wasn't the son of God in the sense you or I have had sons. Rather it is title Jesus and His followers identified with to assist us better understand His role in the world and his relationship to God.

The Gospel of John portrays Jesus as being God. He is not literally God incarnate but the mouthpiece for God. It is as if the image of the heavenly sun were perfectly reflected in a mirror. Through the mirror we see the sun. The mirror is not the sun but the means we see the sun. If the mirror were to declare itself to be the sun, this would be the truth. Through the mirror, the sun is perfectly reflected. If the mirror were to deny being the sun, this too is true.

The Holy Spirit are like the rays the the sun reflected from through the mirror. It is what animates us to reflect God's teachings and spirit.

That's a very detailed description, and I like it a lot.

The Holy Spirit was an idea that always confused me; this explains well.

The Trinity is a doctrine or the invention of the church to explain the relationship between God ( the Father), the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a useful tool for understanding these inter-relationships. However I don't consider God to be triune or three.


Most religions I'm familiar make some distinction about differing periods or eras.

I enjoyed your explanation though of course its not what I believe. Similarly I wouldn't expect you to agree that Krishna is a Manifestation of God.

What do you believe in regards to the God of Abraham?

That's about it. We're all flawed and few of us attain the perfection we strive for. We may as well do some good in the meantime while hoping to rise above our lower nature. Life is short.

"perfection we strive for"

Do you think perfection might look different for different people?

But yes, I agree.

 

[CG Didymus]

This could be useful. Kalki - Wikipedia to compare to the Baha'i article, for those interested.

From the link...

Kalki appears for the first time in the Mahabharata.[19] A minor text named Kalki Purana is a relatively recent text, likely composed in Bengal. Its dating floruit is the 18th-century.[20] Wendy Doniger dates the Kalki Mythology containing Kalki Purana to between 1500 and 1700 CE.[21]​

​

The Kalkin section in the Mahabharata is present in the Markandeya section. There, states Luis Reimann, can "hardly be any doubt that the Markandeya section is a late addition to the epic. Making Yudhishthira ask a question about conditions at the end of Kali and the beginning of Krta — something far removed from his own situation — is merely a device for justifying the inclusion of this subject matter in the epic.​

​

A recent addition? But then what about the Bhagavat Gita? When was that written and by whom? When was Krishna supposed to have lived?

The Baha'is are told to investigate the truth to verify if something really is true. I think most of the "investigation" is... "if our religion teaches it, it is true... end of discussion."

 

[CG Didymus]

CG, what do you think of the idea of prophecy in general? Do you think it's scientifically possible to accurately predict the future?

I used to think it did. But I was horribly gullible back in the early 70's. I went from trusting what I was told by Baha'is, to rejecting what they said, because it contradicted what Born-Again Christians were telling me. I tried hard to be a believer, but I couldn't keep doing it. I was in L.A. and saw a Jewish bookstore and went in and asked them what they believed. I had to press them to tell me why they didn't believe Jesus was their Messiah.

The guy showed me three small booklets that each went through the Messianic prophecies and how Jesus didn't fulfill any of them. Then one of the booklets went through the various verses that Christians say are fulfilled prophecies. The most important, I think, is the virgin birth "prophecy.

It is easy to read the chapter in Isaiah where it is mentioned and see that it doesn't refer to Jesus at all. So, what's my conclusion? Anybody can make any prophecy mean anything they want. Anybody can cherry-pick the Bible or any Scripture and find verses that can be made into a prophecy.

Now I don't trust what anybody says about prophecies.... including the Baha'is. They have their many "fulfilled" prophecies. But there are many things that are supposed to be prophecies of the end-times that didn't get fulfilled. Like in Revelation with the number or mark of the beast, and that people cannot buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast.

No wait, I got that wrong, Baha'is do say that was fulfilled... The number, 666, becomes a date, the year 661 AD. This is the year the beast, the Umayyads, took over Islam. But you might be thinking, "How does 666 equal 661?" That's easy for Baha'is. Jesus was not born on year zero. He was born a few years before that. So, why not five years before that. Then... all we have to do is add 5 years to 661 and we get exactly 666... just as prophesied in Revelation.

Now did the Umayyads do exactly what was predicted in Revelation? No, but, when it comes to fulfilling prophecy, we can't be too picky or nothing would ever get fulfilled.

Which all has gotten me to think... We can't trust what anybody says about prophecy. And we probably can't trust the people the wrote the prophecies. All I know is believers believe and doubters doubt. That pretty much any religion will work for those that want to believe it... even the Baha'i Faith. Unfortunately, with some religions, part of believing in them means a person has got to go out and tell everybody else about this great truth of theirs. I'm glad your religion, or spiritual path, is working for you and that I have had the pleasure of knowing you.

 

[Vinayaka]

I used to think it did. But I was horribly gullible back in the early 70's. I went from trusting what I was told by Baha'is, to rejecting what they said, because it contradicted what Born-Again Christians were telling me. I tried hard to be a believer, but I couldn't keep doing it. I was in L.A. and saw a Jewish bookstore and went in and asked them what they believed. I had to press them to tell me why they didn't believe Jesus was their Messiah.

The guy showed me three small booklets that each went through the Messianic prophecies and how Jesus didn't fulfill any of them. Then one of the booklets went through the various verses that Christians say are fulfilled prophecies. The most important, I think, is the virgin birth "prophecy.

It is easy to read the chapter in Isaiah where it is mentioned and see that it doesn't refer to Jesus at all. So, what's my conclusion? Anybody can make any prophecy mean anything they want. Anybody can cherry-pick the Bible or any Scripture and find verses that can be made into a prophecy.

Now I don't trust what anybody says about prophecies.... including the Baha'is. They have their many "fulfilled" prophecies. But there are many things that are supposed to be prophecies of the end-times that didn't get fulfilled. Like in Revelation with the number or mark of the beast, and that people cannot buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast.

No wait, I got that wrong, Baha'is do say that was fulfilled... The number, 666, becomes a date, the year 661 AD. This is the year the beast, the Umayyads, took over Islam. But you might be thinking, "How does 666 equal 661?" That's easy for Baha'is. Jesus was not born on year zero. He was born a few years before that. So, why not five years before that. Then... all we have to do is add 5 years to 661 and we get exactly 666... just as prophesied in Revelation.

Now did the Umayyads do exactly what was predicted in Revelation? No, but, when it comes to fulfilling prophecy, we can't be too picky or nothing would ever get fulfilled.

Which all has gotten me to think... We can't trust what anybody says about prophecy. And we probably can't trust the people the wrote the prophecies. All I know is believers believe and doubters doubt. That pretty much any religion will work for those that want to believe it... even the Baha'i Faith. Unfortunately, with some religions, part of believing in them means a person has got to go out and tell everybody else about this great truth of theirs. I'm glad your religion, or spiritual path, is working for you and that I have had the pleasure of knowing you.

Thanks. I'm totally unfamiliar with all that as I discarded the idea of it a long time ago. I was brought up to think rationally. The supposed ability to predict the future is just plain irrational to me. However, the occasional logical hunch can work, like saying to an intelligent child who is good in science ... "one day you'll be a doctor' or some such thing, but that's just a nice way of encouraging someone to pursue their dreams.

I have yet to hear anything convincing at all, and both the Christian Faith and the Baha'i Faith and chock full of failed predictions, with the absurd excuse of "Oh we got the dates wrong."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have yet to hear anything convincing at all, and both the Christian Faith and the Baha'i Faith and chock full of failed predictions, with the absurd excuse of "Oh we got the dates wrong."

The only sure time prophecy is given in the Bible is that of the year. The Bible also offers that no one knows the day and hour.

There really is no clearer prophecy than the 1260 (1844)prophecy, a Christian branch was even built upon this. That prophecy had to include Islam and its calender.

Time is relative and in prophecy, many given are timeless.

As with all prophecy, it is given in a way so we have to use logic, reason and a freewill choice.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The only sure time prophecy is given in the Bible is that of the year. The Bible also offers that no one knows the day and hour.

There really is no clearer prophecy than the 1260 (1844)prophecy, a Christian branch was even built upon this. That prophecy had to include Islam and its calender.

Time is relative and in prophecy, many given are timeless.

As with all prophecy, it is given in a way so we have to use logic, reason and a freewill choice.

Regards Tony

Use logic? Six times 1260 days or something that adds up to 1260 days is used in the Book of Revelation. Each time it is referring to something else. Things that start and stop at different times. Yet, for the Baha'is, each time starts with the Hegira and ends with the declaration of the Bab.

It's remarkable that the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar is the year 1844 in the Gregorian calendar. But how can six different things all be made to start and stop at the same time? Especially when some of them happen after one of the other things happen?

But another issue... Did Jesus, or the Christ, return that year? No, it was the Bab, the forerunner of the main prophet of the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah didn't declare he was God's messenger for another 19 years. How many prophecies predicted that year? Maybe one? Yet, the forerunner has six predictions in the Book of Revelation?

But what does 1260 Islamic lunar years have to do with Christianity? What did the year 1260 mean to Muslims? I don't know of anything. Why wouldn't there be a prophecy in Islam about the year 1260? Is there one?

But the Baha'is claim that Baha'u'llah fulfills the coming of Kalki and Maitreya. What prophecies do Baha'is use about them that come out to exactly 1844? But, since that is still the year the Bab declared himself, is it also predicted that before the coming of Kalki or Maitreya that a forerunner will come to announce their arrival?

Too many questions... and unless you've got answers, I think we better not use logic. Let's just use faith. With faith we can believe anything we want. No matter how silly it sounds.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Indeed.

I'd almost never try to convince anyone out of their religious beliefs; its part of what makes a person what they are. The only time I'd make an exception would be is if the belief is causing harm... and then it wouldn't be to adopt my faith, by to find a more positive focus in their own(had to do this a few times in the past with friends).

I have had a few extended interfaith discussions on this forum over the years. Its good learn about other faiths and it helps with my role on our cities interfaith council. We had our first meeting of the year yesterday.

How do you think they gained these elevated roles?

In regards Krishna, I know very little, so I'm going to refrain from speculation. If you don’t mind I'll bounce the question back to you. How did Vishnu incarnate as Krishna or any of His other Avatars?

In regards Jesus, it is something Yahweh had planned from the beginning. He choose Mary as He choose Jesus. Jesus was special from conception not just on account of being born to a virgin but being the 'Son of God'.

So I don't believe Jesus did anything special to become the 'Son of God'. It was Jesus's essential nature to begin with. I don't believe either of us could become the 'Son of God' or 'incarnate as Vishnu'. It is simply not part of our innate human nature to reach such an exalted station.

The term 'Manifestation of God' is part of the Baha'i narrative to identify and explain God's purpose and religion. They are just words on a line to describe the indescribable. The phrase 'Son of God' is part of the Christian narrative to explain Christ's nature and purpose. Although I don't know much about Hinduism, I suspect 'Incarnation of Vishnu' helps us understand Krishna's nature and role in the world. Based on the phrase, I suspect that Vishnu has the power to do as He pleases including Manifesting Himself in human form just as Yahweh has the power to send His only begotten Son to earth.

What do you think about Vishnu? Does Vishnu have the power to incarnate into human form at will?

What makes it possible that a person becomes a manifestation of God?

God

t's a very detailed description, and I like it a lot.

The Holy Spirit was an idea that always confused me; this explains well.

Cool

do you believe in regards to the God of Abraham?

The phrase 'God of Abraham' I use when talking to Christians and Jews to emphasize we all believe in the same God. I don't tend to use it otherwise. I suspect folk from Dharmic traditions use it to delineate their beliefs about deities. It neatly compartmentalizes Yahweh and Allah from the pantheon of gods and God some Hindus believe in. What do you think?

I believe in a Creator God that is Omniscient and Omnipotent. It is a God that is concerned with human affairs who has the power to intervene. Do you have a Supreme Deity? How would you describe such a being?

"perfection we strive for"

Do you think perfection might look different for different people?

But yes, I agree.

Absolutely. I imagine that will look very different for the two of us.