What if we accepted each others Religion?

[Vinayaka]

Use logic? Six times 1260 days or something that adds up to 1260 days is used in the Book of Revelation. Each time it is referring to something else. Things that start and stop at different times. Yet, for the Baha'is, each time starts with the Hegira and ends with the declaration of the Bab.

It's remarkable that the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar is the year 1844 in the Gregorian calendar. But how can six different things all be made to start and stop at the same time? Especially when some of them happen after one of the other things happen?

But another issue... Did Jesus, or the Christ, return that year? No, it was the Bab, the forerunner of the main prophet of the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah didn't declare he was God's messenger for another 19 years. How many prophecies predicted that year? Maybe one? Yet, the forerunner has six predictions in the Book of Revelation?

But what does 1260 Islamic lunar years have to do with Christianity? What did the year 1260 mean to Muslims? I don't know of anything. Why wouldn't there be a prophecy in Islam about the year 1260? Is there one?

But the Baha'is claim that Baha'u'llah fulfills the coming of Kalki and Maitreya. What prophecies do Baha'is use about them that come out to exactly 1844? But, since that is still the year the Bab declared himself, is it also predicted that before the coming of Kalki or Maitreya that a forerunner will come to announce their arrival?

Too many questions... and unless you've got answers, I think we better not use logic. Let's just use faith. With faith we can believe anything we want. No matter how silly it sounds.

There must be varying understandings of 'logic'. It's tossed about like 'truth'. Both boil down to faith.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Use logic? Six times 1260 days or something that adds up to 1260 days is used in the Book of Revelation. Each time it is referring to something else. Things that start and stop at different times. Yet, for the Baha'is, each time starts with the Hegira and ends with the declaration of the Bab.

It's remarkable that the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar is the year 1844 in the Gregorian calendar. But how can six different things all be made to start and stop at the same time? Especially when some of them happen after one of the other things happen?

But another issue... Did Jesus, or the Christ, return that year? No, it was the Bab, the forerunner of the main prophet of the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah didn't declare he was God's messenger for another 19 years. How many prophecies predicted that year? Maybe one? Yet, the forerunner has six predictions in the Book of Revelation?

But what does 1260 Islamic lunar years have to do with Christianity? What did the year 1260 mean to Muslims? I don't know of anything. Why wouldn't there be a prophecy in Islam about the year 1260? Is there one?

But the Baha'is claim that Baha'u'llah fulfills the coming of Kalki and Maitreya. What prophecies do Baha'is use about them that come out to exactly 1844? But, since that is still the year the Bab declared himself, is it also predicted that before the coming of Kalki or Maitreya that a forerunner will come to announce their arrival?

Too many questions... and unless you've got answers, I think we better not use logic. Let's just use faith. With faith we can believe anything we want. No matter how silly it sounds.

The Bible is a spiritual Book about spiritual occurrences. It predicts the appearance of Christ, the duration of His Ministry in Christian years and the appearance of Muhammad and the duration of His Ministry in Muslim years and the appearance of both the Bab and Baha’u’llah as well as t the Universal House of Justice. Also, the Bible teaches progressive revelation.

This is what I have found but I can’t do your research for you. For me, because I’ve looked into it very thoroughly I’m totally convinced. But I can’t do your investigation for you. I can’t tell you what is true or not true. You are the only one who can discover that for yourself.

 

[Vinayaka]

The Bible is a spiritual Book about spiritual occurrences. It predicts the appearance of Christ, the duration of His Ministry in Christian years and the appearance of Muhammad and the duration of His Ministry in Muslim years and the appearance of both the Bab and Baha’u’llah as well as t the Universal House of Justice. Also, the Bible teaches progressive revelation.

This is what I have found but I can’t do your research for you. For me, because I’ve looked into it very thoroughly I’m totally convinced. But I can’t do your investigation for you. I can’t tell you what is true or not true. You are the only one who can discover that for yourself.

Why do you write as if to suggest others haven't already explored it, in perhaps deeper ways than you? Seems to me CG has done a boatload of research.

 

[JustGeorge]

I have had a few extended interfaith discussions on this forum over the years. Its good learn about other faiths and it helps with my role on our cities interfaith council. We had our first meeting of the year yesterday.

Ultimately, religious discussion is what I'm here on the forums for. How did your meeting go?

In regards Krishna, I know very little, so I'm going to refrain from speculation. If you don’t mind I'll bounce the question back to you. How did Vishnu incarnate as Krishna or any of His other Avatars?

He took a birth intentionally.

I wonder, when they became aware they were Vishnu... were they always aware? Come aware later? I don't know myself. Stuff I think on, but have no answers.

As to choosing the body, it was planned before the birth of the incarnations. The prospective parents in past lives had been granted the boon of one day having him as a child in future lives.

In regards Jesus, it is something Yahweh had planned from the beginning. He choose Mary as He choose Jesus. Jesus was special from conception not just on account of being born to a virgin but being the 'Son of God'.

So I don't believe Jesus did anything special to become the 'Son of God'. It was Jesus's essential nature to begin with. I don't believe either of us could become the 'Son of God' or 'incarnate as Vishnu'. It is simply not part of our innate human nature to reach such an exalted station.

I see! Makes sense.

The term 'Manifestation of God' is part of the Baha'i narrative to identify and explain God's purpose and religion. They are just words on a line to describe the indescribable. The phrase 'Son of God' is part of the Christian narrative to explain Christ's nature and purpose. Although I don't know much about Hinduism, I suspect 'Incarnation of Vishnu' helps us understand Krishna's nature and role in the world. Based on the phrase, I suspect that Vishnu has the power to do as He pleases including Manifesting Himself in human form just as Yahweh has the power to send His only begotten Son to earth.

Thanks for clarifying. "describe the indescribable" sounds about right.

What do you think about Vishnu? Does Vishnu have the power to incarnate into human form at will?

I think so. I make no definitive claim(the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite divine). To me, it seems likely he'd be able to do that, though.

God

Cool

The phrase 'God of Abraham' I use when talking to Christians and Jews to emphasize we all believe in the same God. I don't tend to use it otherwise. I suspect folk from Dharmic traditions use it to delineate their beliefs about deities. It neatly compartmentalizes Yahweh and Allah from the pantheon of gods and God some Hindus believe in. What do you think?

I think sometimes the language in general is a barrier between faiths of different roots. I don't want to use East/West here, because I think the issue includes the indigenous traditions. But, its not impossible to talk circles around each other because while two may use the same term, it may mean very different things to the two in the conversation(and they may not initially realize that).

I believe in a Creator God that is Omniscient and Omnipotent. It is a God that is concerned with human affairs who has the power to intervene. Do you have a Supreme Deity? How would you describe such a being?

In Hinduism, there is the concept of Brahman. Brahman isn't a God(and can be difficult to explain, so bear with me). Brahman just is. He/she/it/all of the above is where all things come from, and all things return. Brahman isn't aware of us, though, much like the bacteria on our arm isn't aware of us, either. Many Hindus seek union with this divine source, which is said to bring both dissolution and bliss. Brahman creates, destroys endlessly, resting, waking.

As to my own personal Supreme, I relate to this concept the best in Shiva. I see the cosmos in him, the dance of Nataraja being an indicator of the movement of the universe down to the very atom. (Fun fact: there is a Shiva statue in his Nataraja form in front of the CERN building). I learn about the nature of things through his stories. (Perhaps the story that has meant the most to me is that of him and Sati, the first incarnation of his wife).

But, because I am a polytheist, I do not solely depend on Shiva for all things. I commune with different deities for different reasons.

Absolutely. I imagine that will look very different for the two of us.

What does it look like to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Seems to me CG has done a boatload of research.

He certainly has, and all that research has left him confused.
Haven't you ever heard of "too much information?"

 

[JustGeorge]

He certainly has, and all that research has left him confused.
Haven't you ever heard of "too much information?"

I can't see how diligent research could be a bad thing!

 

[Trailblazer]

I can't see how diligent research could be a bad thing!

I am not saying that it is bad, I am saying it has left him confused.

Mr x says x about a.
Mr y says y about a.
Mr z says z about a.

How could one not be confused?

 

[JustGeorge]

I am not saying that it is bad, I am saying it has left him confused.

Mr x says x about a.
Mr y says y about a.
Mr z says z about a.

How could one not be confused?

I think its good to take in different opinions when attempting to form your own.

They might not all be accurate, but its good to investigate for oneself.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think its good to take in different opinions when attempting to form your own.

They might not all be accurate, but its good to investigate for oneself.

I agree, but once you have looked at all those different opinions you have looked at them.
What is the point of covering the same ground over and over and over again and expecting to arrive at a different destination?

 

[Vinayaka]

He certainly has, and all that research has left him confused.
Haven't you ever heard of "too much information?"

I don't see confusion there at all, and I don't see how suggesting someone is confused is helpful in any way at all. But to each his/her own.

 

[Link]

But what does 1260 Islamic lunar years have to do with Christianity? What did the year 1260 mean to Muslims? I don't know of anything. Why wouldn't there be a prophecy in Islam about the year 1260? Is there one?

Day of judgment is 50 000 years of Ascension towards God per Quran. I think @InvestigateTruth said this was a scenario and the other was 1000 years and that God then picked the 1000 years. What he quotes is that a day with God is a thousand years that we reckon. So he sees Mohammad (s) till Bab as 1000 years and the day of God.

The problem is his interpretation is just conjecture that is obviously false. Day of judgment is indeed 50 000 years towards ascending to God and then even more after the ascension takes place. There is no contradiction and no need to say they are two different promises.

Rather the day with God being 1000 years, refers to how God and Angels assess every day. They slow down time and so do Jinn (evil forces included), and there is a long battle every day for every soul, but people don't see it. Imam of time is linked to this world but also to the higher worlds.

It can be said each day with us is 1000 years with God through this perspective.

There can be even be more meanings with this but how they annul the 50 000 years and ignore it, is strange to say the least.

They are interested in not knowing meaning of the Quran though. They just want to hammer their view on it. As warned about in 3:7, they follow unclear meanings which is condemned.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see confusion there at all, and I don't see how suggesting someone is confused is helpful in any way at all. But to each his/her own.

He seems confused to me, but I do not know if he is confused, only he knows that...
A better word is undecided. He used to have that in his profile. and he is always saying that he is undecided so that is how I know that he is.

 

[Vinayaka]

He seems confused to me, but I do not know if he is confused, only he knows that...
A better word is undecided. He used to have that in his profile. and he is always saying that he is undecided so that is how I know that he is.

Undecided is a reasonable approach, as shown by how many agnostics there are. As for confused, that's an outsider position usually. Dementia patients often don't recognize it, but their loved ones and health care providers certainly know it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Use logic? Six times 1260 days or something that adds up to 1260 days is used in the Book of Revelation. Each time it is referring to something else. Things that start and stop at different times. Yet, for the Baha'is, each time starts with the Hegira and ends with the declaration of the Bab.

It's remarkable that the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar is the year 1844 in the Gregorian calendar. But how can six different things all be made to start and stop at the same time? Especially when some of them happen after one of the other things happen?

But another issue... Did Jesus, or the Christ, return that year? No, it was the Bab, the forerunner of the main prophet of the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah didn't declare he was God's messenger for another 19 years. How many prophecies predicted that year? Maybe one? Yet, the forerunner has six predictions in the Book of Revelation?

But what does 1260 Islamic lunar years have to do with Christianity? What did the year 1260 mean to Muslims? I don't know of anything. Why wouldn't there be a prophecy in Islam about the year 1260? Is there one?

But the Baha'is claim that Baha'u'llah fulfills the coming of Kalki and Maitreya. What prophecies do Baha'is use about them that come out to exactly 1844? But, since that is still the year the Bab declared himself, is it also predicted that before the coming of Kalki or Maitreya that a forerunner will come to announce their arrival?

Too many questions... and unless you've got answers, I think we better not use logic. Let's just use faith. With faith we can believe anything we want. No matter how silly it sounds.

It's only complicated if we make it so CG. The explanations are simple enough.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Day of judgment is 50 000 years of Ascension towards God per Quran. I think @InvestigateTruth said this was a scenario and the other was 1000 years and that God then picked the 1000 years. What he quotes is that a day with God is a thousand years that we reckon. So he sees Mohammad (s) till Bab as 1000 years and the day of God.

The problem is his interpretation is just conjecture that is obviously false. Day of judgment is indeed 50 000 years towards ascending to God and then even more after the ascension takes place. There is no contradiction and no need to say they are two different promises.

Rather the day with God being 1000 years, refers to how God and Angels assess every day. They slow down time and so do Jinn (evil forces included), and there is a long battle every day for every soul, but people don't see it. Imam of time is linked to this world but also to the higher worlds.

It can be said each day with us is 1000 years with God through this perspective.

There can be even be more meanings with this but how they annul the 50 000 years and ignore it, is strange to say the least.

They are interested in not knowing meaning of the Quran though. They just want to hammer their view on it. As warned about in 3:7, they follow unclear meanings which is condemned.

That did not address what CG put in his post about the year 1260AH (1844AD), the year of the Declaration of the Bab.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There must be varying understandings of 'logic'. It's tossed about like 'truth'. Both boil down to faith.

I see it boils down to our willingness to explore the possibilities with logic and reason.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I see it boils down to our willingness to explore the possibilities with logic and reason.

Regards Tony

Indeed it does. But it's nothing more than another way of saying 'I'm right and you're wrong' in both directions.

"Be logical!"
"No, you be logical!"

or "You're confused!"
"Oh no, it is you who is confused."

Methinks it far better to agree to disagree than stand around hurling insults in both directions. Better yet to view it from a detached POV, as a witness, not a participant.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible is a spiritual Book about spiritual occurrences. It predicts the appearance of Christ, the duration of His Ministry in Christian years and the appearance of Muhammad and the duration of His Ministry in Muslim years and the appearance of both the Bab and Baha’u’llah as well as t the Universal House of Justice. Also, the Bible teaches progressive revelation.

This is what I have found but I can’t do your research for you. For me, because I’ve looked into it very thoroughly I’m totally convinced. But I can’t do your investigation for you. I can’t tell you what is true or not true. You are the only one who can discover that for yourself.

So, the Bible predicts these things, but you can't give me the Bible verses where it predicts it? Funny... how did you find those verses? A thorough study of the Bible? Or Abdul Baha, Bill Sears or some other Baha'is told you which verses to look at and how to "correctly" interpret them?

It is the claim that the Baha'i interpretation is correct that I'm arguing/debating against. I don't agree with most of the alleged "fulfilled" prophecies, and I disagree with "progressive" revelation. The best you can say is that my "investigation" was faulty, and I came to wrong conclusions. Show me some Bible verses that support your claims. Who knows, maybe I am wrong.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why do you write as if to suggest others haven't already explored it, in perhaps deeper ways than you? Seems to me CG has done a boatload of research.

Some religions have to be right... completely right. Others are okay with people being on a different path.

Baha'is, depending on who and when you talk to them, say both. "Oh, your path is fine. Your religion is as good and equal to all the rest." Then they turn around and say, "Baha'u'llah is the messenger for today. All the other religions pointed to this day. He fulfills the promises made in all those other religion. He is the divine physician. Only his teachings can cure the ills of the world."

Yeah, maybe so. But I don't believe it... yet. If it's true, I'll believe it. But so far Baha'is haven't given me a good enough reason to believe... Along with JW's, Mormons, Fundy Christians, and countless other proselytizing religious movements.

Now your spiritual/religious beliefs fascinate me, because in all these years, you have never pushed them on me.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't see confusion there at all, and I don't see how suggesting someone is confused is helpful in any way at all. But to each his/her own.

If someone said that about her, I could just imagine what she'd say. I haven't directly responded to her posts for over a year. I think? Maybe it's been more than that? Hmmm? Maybe less? Sorry, I'm a little confused. Oh my God, she's right.