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What if we accepted each others Religion?

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am not sure what you mean here. "Hyperbola in Nature" means what?
For example when Quran says "even if they don't understand anything", it's hyperbola because everyone understands something ,even Quran says God has spread everything with knowledge in the Quran, when it says "It maybe that you will kill yourself that they will not believe in this saying ever" it's exaggerated speech, hence hyperbola.

The hyperbola in terms of knowing Quran is the last book and the law won't change, is that people misunderstood the message and the Shariah was so lost, and the Quran so twisted, that it would be as if bringing a new book, a new law, and a new religion. There are hadiths that explain the other hadiths as such, and I've shared one or two. I can make a thread sharing all the hadiths interpreting it as this.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Having the opportunity to learn doesn't mean you learn. We can attend classes without learning. So some learn, while others only 'learn' to dig into their preconceived notions.
That is exactly what all Messengers from God will face in every age, past and future.

Regards Tony
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is exactly what all Messengers from God will face in every age, past and future.

Regards Tony
Fake Messengers and true Messengers exist. They face somethings similar and somethings different.

They both are seen as wanting power, moral control to landscape, praise, center of attention, leadership, leaving a legacy.. this is why Quran says "I ask no reward (that you accuse me of) except..." "What of a reward do I ask of..." "Whatever reward I asked for..." etc... because the doubts are not unreasonable.

Why God doesn't send Angels on earth is not unreasonable thing to ask. The objections were not all unreasonable, but the Quran shows, they were moving goal posts.

In Surah Anbiya, it starts with a verse that is obviously revealed AFTER a verse that follows. That is it starts with the fact they were accusing him of being a sorcerer, but then goes on to remind, of what they previously said. They previously said for God to send signs (miracles is what they meant) like previous Messengers were sent. The Quran in this context says "ask the family of the reminder if you do not know", meaning, the Ahlul-Thikr will perform miracles. However, another verse, shows not to hasten such signs, but that they will be shown.

The reason is because a soul if not ready for such signs, will rebel and accuse of sorcery without reason. We can then know that the verse "He will show you his signs so do not hasten them" although way later in the Surah, was revealed before the starting verse of the Surah and the Ahlul-Thikr Verse. The ask the Ahlul-Thikr was obviously revealed before the start too. But then it flows wonderful, even though jumbled order, which is an amazing feature of Quran. That it flows perfectly, even when the order of when it was revealed is all over the place.

They moved the goal posts - and eventually said - forget all such signs, we won't believe until you bring our forefathers all together. As for raising some of the dead, both Quran and hadtihs show Mohammad (s) did that. But they were being unreasonable.

During Mohammad (s) time and area, there was a fake Prophet Musalma that had some followers, but no one took him that serious until later after Mohammad's (s) death, Abu Bakr fought him and his followers.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Can you provide the Arabic when you provide translations?
Of course. Here:


١٤١٣ / ٣. عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ ، عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ شَمُّونٍ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللهِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمنِ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللهِ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ الْبَطَلِ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ ، قَالَ :

قُلْتُ لِأَبِي عَبْدِ اللهِ عليه‌السلام : ( يَوْمَ نَدْعُوا كُلَّ أُناسٍ بِإِمامِهِمْ ) [١٢]؟ قَالَ : « إِمَامِهِمُ الَّذِي بَيْنَ أَظْهُرِهِمْ ، وهُوَ قَائِمُ أَهْلِ زَمَانِهِ [١٣] ». [١٤]



I will share other hadiths about the same verse:

في الكافي عن الصادق عليه السلام قال بإمامهم الذي بين أظهرهم وهو قائم أهل زمانه.

(same one you qouted) from As-Sadiq (a) "the one who is in midst of them and he is the riser of the people of his time"

والقمّي عن الباقر عليه السلام في هذه الآية قال يجيء رسول الله صلىَّ اللهُ عليه وآله وسلم في قومه وعليّ عليه السلام في قومه والحَسَن عليه السلام في قومه والحُسين عليه السلام في قومه وكلّ من ماتَ بين ظهرانيّ قوم جاؤا معه.

from Baqir (a) regarding this verse said "the Messenger of God (blessings upon him and his family and send peace) in his people and Ali (peace be upon him) in his people and Hassan (peace be upon him) in his people and Hussain (peace be upon him) in his people and everyone who dies in midst of his people come with him (the leader).


والعياشي ما يقرب من معناه.

similar meaning in Al-Yashi to above hadith

وفي الكافي والعياشي عن الباقر عليه السلام لما نزلت هذه الآية قال المسلمون يا رسول الله ألست إمام الناس كلّهم أجمعين فقال أنا رسول الله إلى الناس أجمعين ولكن سيكون من بعدي أئمّة على الناس من الله من أهل بيتي يقومون في الناس فيكذّبون ويظلمهم أئمّة الكفر والضلال وأشياعهم فمن والاهم واتبعهم وصدّقهم فهو مني ومعي وسيلقاني الا ومن ظلمهم وكذّبهم فليس منّي ولا معي وأنا منه بريء.

from Baqir (a) when this verse was revealed, the Muslims said "O Messenger of God are you not the leader of all people together?", he said "I God's Messenger to all people all together but after me there will be leaders upon the people from God from the people of my house, they will rise among the people so will deny and be oppressive towards them the leaders of disbeliever and misguidance and their followers so whoever wali them (left it untranslated since it means the relationship owed to them in this context and the types of relations are signified by context) and follows them and testifies to them/believes in them, so they are from me and with me and they will meet me, however, whoever is oppressive towards them and denies so he is not from me nor with me and I am from him free/I dissociate from him.

(there was a hadith I omitted from Imam Jaffar (a))

وفي المحاسن عنه عليه السلام أنتم والله على دين الله ثمّ تلا هذه الآية ثم قال عليّ عليه السلام إمامنا ورسول الله صلَّى الله عليه وآله وسلم إمامنا وكم من إمام يجيء يوم القيامة يلعن أصحابه ويلعنونه.

from Sadiq (a) "You are I swear by God on the religion of God, then recited this verse, then said Ali (a) is our leader, and Messenger (s) of God is our leader and how many leaders God will raise on the day of rising he will curse his companions and they will curse him."

And there is a long Du'a that quotes this Aya too, the Du'a from Imam Reda (a) for hardships.
Yes, because the Figurative verses of the Quran have Seven Layers of Meaning, and interpretations.
So, you have quoted other interpretations.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
For example when Quran says "even if they don't understand anything", it's hyperbola because everyone understands something ,even Quran says God has spread everything with knowledge in the Quran, when it says "It maybe that you will kill yourself that they will not believe in this saying ever" it's exaggerated speech, hence hyperbola.

The hyperbola in terms of knowing Quran is the last book and the law won't change, is that people misunderstood the message and the Shariah was so lost, and the Quran so twisted, that it would be as if bringing a new book, a new law, and a new religion. There are hadiths that explain the other hadiths as such, and I've shared one or two. I can make a thread sharing all the hadiths interpreting it as this.
Of course. So, the Qaim, reveals a new Book to explain true interpretation of the Quran, to corect misinterpretations. There are Hadithes in support of this.
This Book, that the Qaim would reveal to explain interpretations, have a name. It is not nameless. It is a Revelation from God. Not that the Qaim invents it.

But, how can be said, the Sharia of Quran, can be ever lost? The Sharia of the Quran, is, in the Quran. Those are the Obligatory Prayer, Fasting, Khoms or Zakaat, laws of marriage and divorce, etc. They cannot be lost. So, how can it be said, Qaim brings a new Law, it means, the same Sharia of Quran that is lost!?

I have already quoted the verse of Quran, that, there is benefit in the Rites of Quran up to an Appointed Time. And Appointed Time, is "Rise of the Qaim".

The Term Ajal (اجل)، is indicative of an expiration Time.

وَلَقَدۡ أَرۡسَلۡنَا رُسُلࣰا مِّن قَبۡلِكَ وَجَعَلۡنَا لَهُمۡ أَزۡوَ ٰجࣰا وَذُرِّیَّةࣰۚ وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَن یَأۡتِیَ بِءَایَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذۡنِ ٱللَّهِۗ لِكُلِّ أَجَلࣲ كِتَابࣱ
یَمۡحُوا۟ ٱللَّهُ مَا یَشَاۤءُ وَیُثۡبِتُۖ وَعِندَهُۥۤ أُمُّ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ​

It says, God has appointed a Book, for every Period of Time. When the Term is expired, it is upto God to confirm or abrogte anything He wants from the Book, because Source of Revelation is with Him. God can, replace anything that He abrogates, with something better. So clear. It is not even Mutishabihat.
How could one imagine that, when Quran says, cut the hand of thief, God cannot replace this Law with anything better? these were old time laws. or in Hadithes, it is said, the Mahdi abrigates Jiza, and kills the pig, which can be understood He allows eating pork. Perhaps it is a different time, a new Age. Quran was revealed 1400 years ago, and alot of it has to do with conditions of the old times, in Arabian Land. Qaim brings so much knowledge. Knowledge is 25 letters. All Prophets upto Muhammad revealed only two letters of it. The rest is through Qaim. Meaning the Qaim will have a lot of Books to reveal. Not just correcting some misinterpretation
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
During Mohammad (s) time and area, there was a fake Prophet Musalma that had some followers, but no one took him that serious until later after Mohammad's (s) death, Abu Bakr fought him and his followers.
There will always be fake claims, the dilemma for us is that God will always send the true messengers for us to accept and reject and allow us to choose. The false will always dwindle over time, unless they are piggybacking off a true messenger.

That is why in prophecy, there are instructions as to how to determine true and false prophets.

History has proven that the vast majority of people have dived deep "into their preconceived notions" and will reject the true messenger.

A significant amount can and will embrace the false, as the false are usually piggybacking off a legitimate revelation and the message will still contain preconceived concepts.

Only a handful have ever embraced a true messenger after their declaration, and have suffered because of that choice. All things are made new and people do not like change, they will resist it for centuries. After all, people still reject Jesus and Muhammad!

Regards Tony
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I had meant to say Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma. I understand some have likened the Trimurti to the Christian Trinity but I imagine any such association is not widely accepted.

Its an interesting connection between Vishnu and Krishna. I have heard at least one Vaishnavite state that Krisha is Vishnu or a literal incarnation. How do you understand it?

I'd like hear about you experience of Krishna. I appreciate its a personal experience. Evidently if I visited my ISKCON colleagues community centre they could invoke Him for me.

The polytheist approach is very much like Indigenous practices. Japanese Shinto and New Zealand Maori are the one's I'm most familiar with. I'm aware polytheism is the reality for many Hindus.

My wife's spiritual outlook is very Japanese with a blend of Buddhism and Shinto. The two religions were interwoven and in harmony for many centuries.

I see Kami-sama in Shinto as the same Creator God I believe in. Buddha in her worldview is very theistic, unlike Westerners

It is great that you have you spirituality as a constant in your life.

Difficult decision to make and home schooling is a valid option.

Sorry to hear that but I'm not suprised. Mental health services tend to be underfunded and under resourced everywhere. Your experience is extremely common here. I've been dealing with the same issues for one of my patients over the last few days.

It is great your father is doing the Christain thing and not letting his religion become a barrier in regards relationships with family. I imagine having to cope with your new age mother has been valuable preparation for getting on with his polytheist daughter!

Wow. Amazing.

You are one of the most eclectic people I've come across but maybe I don't get out enough!

There are perhaps indirect references to Zoroastrianism in the Tanakh or Christain Old Testament. It was the Persians who were very multicultural and allowed the Jewish people to return from exile and rebuild their temple. King Cyrus of Persia was referred to by the Prophet Isaiah as the annointed one. He was probably a Zoroastrian.

I survived the long motor cycle up North. Still exhausted...
I understand some have likened the Trimurti to the Christian Trinity but I imagine any such association is not widely accepted.
The later Christian’s who travelled to places like india found it easier to proselytise exactly by equating the new religion (Christianity) with what the people already believed:

  • ‘Three ruling Gods’.
But, to comply with the first doctrine of ‘Only One God’ it was necessary to create a work-around:
  • ‘But though there are THREE they are yet just ONE GOD’
Bingo!!! Everyone can go around worshipping their original Gods in new form of three GODS as three persons and yet still be claiming to be worshipping only ONE God!!!

Compromise wins over converts…

And more were converted over those who stuck to the truth:
  • One Father, and One God, who created all things
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
When a person respects God, he is interested in what He considers right, and does not try to accommodate matters to his own human point of view. Those who seek to create agreements or pacts between religions with different beliefs and principles do so because they have no knowledge of the true God, nor are they interested in taking His will into account.

For many religious people, the Creator is an unknown entity about whom we cannot know what He thinks or does. However, this idea of the true God is totally wrong, because if in reality a Creator was in charge of forming this beautiful planet and our bodies to enjoy it, then that Creator has a real interest in our well-being, and would have been in charge of giving us the correct message about our main questions.

One of those questions would be: does He, our Creator, consider that we can have whatever idea we want about Him? Would He consider it right that people decide for themselves how to behave towards Him and towards our fellow human beings? Would He accept that we decide for ourselves what is right or wrong?

People who consider good and truth as relative have no idea about God. Since the beliefs and basic rules of conduct of different religions are so contradictory, it is impossible for God to accept all of them or any kind of agreement between them.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They cannot be lost.
The biggest rights and most important thing to God is justice and justice has been lost for a long time. The concept of human rights was not even pioneered by Muslims though the concept exists in our hadiths.

The concepts existing in hadiths but not applied does not mean it's not lost. Most people have not read all hadiths.

And Salah is just a ritual to make you see God. It's outward is still there, but it's inward is hardly known. Most Muslims pray but die blind not seeing God and Ahlulbayt (a).
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That is why in prophecy, there are instructions as to how to determine true and false prophets.
The instructions aren't that clear. One that I mention a lot is the virgin birth story in Matthew and Luke. The claim is that the virgin birth was prophesied in Isaiah. But was it? What I question is that they only take the one verse and ignore the rest of what Isaiah had to say about the boy.
Only a handful have ever embraced a true messenger after their declaration, and have suffered because of that choice. All things are made new and people do not like change, they will resist it for centuries. After all, people still reject Jesus and Muhammad!
Lots of wars followed both Christianity and Islam. Christianity had the Inquisition. What was "made" new? By the time Christianity got going, it had already added in the belief in the Trinity. At some point they added in a belief in purgatory. But right from the start it had Jesus as being the only way to gain salvation, because he was the only one able to pay the penalty for the sins of the world. There was also the belief in Satan, demons and hell. People had to obey the doctrines of the Roman Church or they could be killed. Would you have joined that religion?

At least your religion isn't like that, but still... if we go by the prophesies of the different religions, there is nothing clear and definite that would make it easy to determine who's false and who is the true prophet.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
At least your religion isn't like that, but still... if we go by the prophesies of the different religions, there is nothing clear and definite that would make it easy to determine who's false and who is the true prophet.
That is how God's plan works CG, it enables us to throw off the material and embrace the spiritual.

If it was easy, no one would be thankful. We would all become complacent.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I think there's a lot of pressure on parents to 'fix this'. Not everything is fixable, and not everything that doesn't run 'normally' is broken. Many years, I caught flack because of things that were sometimes minor with my older two boys(my oldest is also on the spectrum), and sometimes the complaints were... dumb. "LeeAnder can't sit still" "Ares won't eat at the table" "LeeAnder flaps his hands" "Ares won't sit in the same room as everyone at family gatherings"... "fix it! you're slacking!" And then when there really is a problem, and the parent is at a loss.... Oh boy.

The social pressures put on parents can sometimes be quite taxing. I'm not sure if this is a new thing, worsened by social media and the tendency to 'compare lives', or if its always been this way.

That being said, there are, and I'm sure there's always been, parents that just don't want to deal, so they look for a way out.
Its hard being a parent especially when our children are not meeting expectations. Needing professional help is another step up in regards challenges. Some people get it and others don't. Sometimes those who don't get it are our close relatives and friends.

Do you have good support from your children's father? That can make a world of difference.
Have you ever considered reading the Mahabharata(the scripture the Gita came from)? In its entirety might be a bit much, but there are many decent abridged versions.

What are some of the connections between Jesus and Krishna that you've found? You're not the first to suggest it, but I've always struggled to see the similarities between the chaste Jesus(it seems the issue of Mary Magdalene is controversial, and having no Christian background, I simply have no opinion on it) and Krishna and his gopis(and 16,000 wives).
I have considered reading the mahabhatata but struggle to find much spare time. Any recommendations for an abridged version?

The similarities between Jesus and Krishna?

1/ Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu and Jesus an incarnation of God.

2/ Krishna guided Arjuna as he struggled with practical or moral conflicts in the lead up to the Kurukshetra war. Jesus guided a small group of Jewish disciples as they struggled with practical and moral conflicts in the lead up to the Jewish-Roman wars.

3/ Both Krishna and Jesus were extremely attractive to large groups of people. They exerted an enormous influence on the hearts and minds of countless people over several millenia.

4/ They remain the focal point of intense adoration of multitudes to this day. Many of Their Teachings have endured and are considered universal in that they still apply from age to age.

The purity of Jesus is emphasized through His Virgin birth and chaste life. As with any alleged miracle it is controversial but could simply be viewed as a theological narrative rather than an historical literal account. Many Christians and Bible scholars take that approach.

I don't know what to make of Krishna and his thousands of wives and gopis. Unlike the Baha'i and Christian Faiths where I have considerable first hand experience, I have little Hindu experience. I simply don't know. What are your thoughts?

seems the idea of Buddha being the 9th Avatar is somewhat controversial, too... Some Buddhists don't like that idea, and some Hindus don't, either. At the temple we attended, there are depictions and descriptions of each incarnation of Vishnu, but they have Balarama shown as the 9th.
Personally, I've always thought Buddha was a fitting avatar, but I don't get overly attached to the idea(I think he'd approve of that either way).
I'm comfortable with Buddha being the ninth avatar of Vishnu but then again I'm a Baha'i. Like you I have met Buddhists who don't like the idea and many Hindus who don't believe in avatars at all. Hindus appear comfortable with diversity of belief so I imagine most Hindus don't have strong opinions in regards beliefs that don't fit their sampradaya. Is that right?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Hindus appear comfortable with diversity of belief so I imagine most Hindus don't have strong opinions in regards beliefs that don't fit their sampradaya. Is that right?
That's an accurate assessment, in my view. As an example, and as you probably remember, I've never read the Gita, although I suspect it's a great book. I did read an abridged version of both the Mahabharata, and Ramayana, a long time ago. So long ago I can't remember.

There are a few people out there who do take exception, and vehemently, but they're perhaps stuck in village mentality. I try not to engage much with such, once I know. In addition to your comment, most Hindus don't engage philosophically at all.
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
Its hard being a parent especially when our children are not meeting expectations. Needing professional help is another step up in regards challenges. Some people get it and others don't. Sometimes those who don't get it are our close relatives and friends.

Do you have good support from your children's father? That can make a world of difference.
Unfortunately, my husband has his own mental health issues, which came to a head around the same time my son's were. There were some really spirit depleting times.

He's since gotten on the right track, and can help a little more now that Ares is leveling out, but at his worst, I was pretty much on my own. He does help in concrete ways, such as paying the bills. He doesn't really understand the idea of emotional support, both because of his mental illness, and his terrible situation as a child. I don't hold it against him, as it really isn't his fault, but it can be difficult at times.
I have considered reading the mahabhatata but struggle to find much spare time. Any recommendations for an abridged version?
My favorite translation so far has been Ramesh Menon's. I can understand lack of time... you're a busy guy.
The similarities between Jesus and Krishna?

1/ Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu and Jesus an incarnation of God.

2/ Krishna guided Arjuna as he struggled with practical or moral conflicts in the lead up to the Kurukshetra war. Jesus guided a small group of Jewish disciples as they struggled with practical and moral conflicts in the lead up to the Jewish-Roman wars.

3/ Both Krishna and Jesus were extremely attractive to large groups of people. They exerted an enormous influence on the hearts and minds of countless people over several millenia.

4/ They remain the focal point of intense adoration of multitudes to this day. Many of Their Teachings have endured and are considered universal in that they still apply from age to age.

The purity of Jesus is emphasized through His Virgin birth and chaste life. As with any alleged miracle it is controversial but could simply be viewed as a theological narrative rather than an historical literal account. Many Christians and Bible scholars take that approach.
Ah! I see. Thanks for explaining that. I don't really know much of Jesus, so it always confused me.

From what I see here, the comparison is more their roles in the world? Would that be accurate?
I don't know what to make of Krishna and his thousands of wives and gopis. Unlike the Baha'i and Christian Faiths where I have considerable first hand experience, I have little Hindu experience. I simply don't know. What are your thoughts?
I think many interpret it as one person can't have him all to themselves. The Divine is for all who seek. And, they didn't have to all fight over him; he divided himself into many, so each wife could have her own Krishna as she needed.

In his childhood village, the women(married or not) would flock to him. The need to seek him goes beyond social rules.

Despite all his wives, the woman you're most likely to see him pictured with is Radha. She was his favorite of the gopis; they were never married. There are a lot of stories of them that teach Bhakta... The stories of them are perhaps dearer to me than any others. I've actually got them on my living room curtains! They're in my avatar today, if you manage to see it before I change it again.
I'm comfortable with Buddha being the ninth avatar of Vishnu but then again I'm a Baha'i. Like you I have met Buddhists who don't like the idea and many Hindus who don't believe in avatars at all. Hindus appear comfortable with diversity of belief so I imagine most Hindus don't have strong opinions in regards beliefs that don't fit their sampradaya. Is that right?
Generally speaking, yes, I'd agree.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That is how God's plan works CG, it enables us to throw off the material and embrace the spiritual.

If it was easy, no one would be thankful. We would all become complacent.

Regards Tony
I said that it is not clear. It is easy to read the words of a prophecy and come up with a reasonable interpretation. Then it is easy, after the fact, to say what just happened, or what this person just did fulfilled such and such prophecy. But when it's not so clear, then it depends on believe the interpretation of the person claiming it has been fulfilled.

For me, it's not necessarily "embracing" the spiritual, but believing the person claiming to have fulfilled some prophecy. For example, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claims he is the one the has fulfilled some of the same prophecies that your Baha'u'llah has claimed to have fulfilled. And Christians claim that Jesus has fulfilled Bible prophecies that Baha'is claim were not fulfilled by Jesus but by Baha'u'llah.

Then there is the good ole thing of making verses that aren't prophecies, into prophecies. All of it is easy.... easy to make claims. And then to say, "But you need spiritual eyes to see it."
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Unfortunately, my husband has his own mental health issues, which came to a head around the same time my son's were. There were some really spirit depleting times.

He's since gotten on the right track, and can help a little more now that Ares is leveling out, but at his worst, I was pretty much on my own. He does help in concrete ways, such as paying the bills. He doesn't really understand the idea of emotional support, both because of his mental illness, and his terrible situation as a child. I don't hold it against him, as it really isn't his fault, but it can be difficult at times.
Mental health issues are common place these days. It can take a few years to recover from a major event. Most people come out the other end being able to get on with their lives and hopefully have a better perspective and approach to living. Some never recover fully. It is what it is and life goes on.

Your circumstances are similar to a close work colleague who is also a Baha'i. She has four children, two who really struggle with mental health issues and her Baha'i husband who can no longer work on account of health issues.

Does your husband have similar Hindu beliefs to you? How does your Hindu Faith help deal with stress and emotional difficulties? Hope you're OK with the questions.
My favorite translation so far has been Ramesh Menon's. I can understand lack of time... you're a busy guy.
Thanks for that. The Mahabharata is a huge body of literature. I'm grateful for ISHKON for bringing the Bhagavad Gita into the mainstream of Western thought. I appreciate its only a tiny portion of the Mahabharata but it seems like a good starting point. Do you have any suggestions about smaller sections that would also be a good starting point or a next step.

Something that takes no longer than two to three hours to read is perfect for busy people with short attention spans!
Ah! I see. Thanks for explaining that. I don't really know much of Jesus, so it always confused me.

From what I see here, the comparison is more their roles in the world? Would that be accurate?
It is more than just their role in the world. It is also their Divine nature and attributes. Christianity is heavily criticized by both Muslims and Jews for turning Jesus into more than a man and indeed more than a Prophet or Messenger. For Christians, Jesus is literally God incarnate. It is as if the Creator God of the universe who is Omnipotent, Omniscient and existed for all eternity has descended to earth and taken the form of a human being.

How is Christ being God incarnate different from Krishna being Vishnu incarnate? How is Vishnu different from the God of Abraham?
think many interpret it as one person can't have him all to themselves. The Divine is for all who seek. And, they didn't have to all fight over him; he divided himself into many, so each wife could have her own Krishna as she needed.

In his childhood village, the women(married or not) would flock to him. The need to seek him goes beyond social rules.

Despite all his wives, the woman you're most likely to see him pictured with is Radha. She was his favorite of the gopis; they were never married. There are a lot of stories of them that teach Bhakta... The stories of them are perhaps dearer to me than any others. I've actually got them on my living room curtains! They're in my avatar today, if you manage to see it before I change it again.
If Krishna is Vishnu or God, then I suppose He could do whatever He wanted. Why not divide into 16,000 or more of the same people and share yourself around?

Interestingly Solomon who is recognized by Islam, Christianity and Judaism as being one of the Jewish Prophets and King of Israel had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The later Christian’s who travelled to places like india found it easier to proselytise exactly by equating the new religion (Christianity) with what the people already believed:

  • ‘Three ruling Gods’.
But, to comply with the first doctrine of ‘Only One God’ it was necessary to create a work-around:
  • ‘But though there are THREE they are yet just ONE GOD’
Bingo!!! Everyone can go around worshipping their original Gods in new form of three GODS as three persons and yet still be claiming to be worshipping only ONE God!!!

Compromise wins over converts…

And more were converted over those who stuck to the truth:
  • One Father, and One God, who created all things
It would be fair to state that Christianity's efforts to convert Hindu India has made very modest progress over two thousand years if the proportion of Christian in India is anything to go by.

 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
Mental health issues are common place these days. It can take a few years to recover from a major event. Most people come out the other end being able to get on with their lives and hopefully have a better perspective and approach to living. Some never recover fully. It is what it is and life goes on.

Your circumstances are similar to a close work colleague who is also a Baha'i. She has four children, two who really struggle with mental health issues and her Baha'i husband who can no longer work on account of health issues.
I'm sorry to hear she struggles. I hope she has good support in the Baha'i community.
Does your husband have similar Hindu beliefs to you? How does your Hindu Faith help deal with stress and emotional difficulties? Hope you're OK with the questions.
Yes, we are both Hindu, but I wouldn't consider our beliefs identical. There are some marked differences, but they're kinda nuanced and difficult to tackle without getting really into detail(and boring the socks off of folks).

I think without my faith, I'd have straight up broken down by now. I can't say my religious beliefs always bring comfort, but they at least bring reason, and help me understand my place in the cosmos.
Thanks for that. The Mahabharata is a huge body of literature. I'm grateful for ISHKON for bringing the Bhagavad Gita into the mainstream of Western thought. I appreciate its only a tiny portion of the Mahabharata but it seems like a good starting point. Do you have any suggestions about smaller sections that would also be a good starting point or a next step.

Something that takes no longer than two to three hours to read is perfect for busy people with short attention spans!
I can't even pick, there's so many different places! The story of the Pandavas drinking from a forbidden lake, and dying(except for Yudhishtira) and the resulting conversation between Yudhishtira and Yama disguised as a Yaksha is a favorite part. The ending scene in which the Pandavas are climbing up the mountain to meet their deaths is another moving part(to me). Bhima meeting Hanuman in the woods is a fun one. I also enjoyed the conversation between Draupadi and Satyabhama. All could be relatively quick reads.

There's just so much to enjoy...
It is more than just their role in the world. It is also their Divine nature and attributes. Christianity is heavily criticized by both Muslims and Jews for turning Jesus into more than a man and indeed more than a Prophet or Messenger. For Christians, Jesus is literally God incarnate. It is as if the Creator God of the universe who is Omnipotent, Omniscient and existed for all eternity has descended to earth and taken the form of a human being.
I see! That makes sense.

Do Baha'is honor both of these figures as divine, then?
How is Christ being God incarnate different from Krishna being Vishnu incarnate? How is Vishnu different from the God of Abraham?
I'm not terribly educated in the sphere of Christian theology, but from an outsider's point of view, it seems like Yahweh sent Jesus to get some works done for his sake. Krishna was Vishnu coming himself. Krishna was a bodily form of Vishnu that came to the earthly plane to bring in the Kali Yuga.

My own understanding of the God of Abraham is probably going to be much different from many folks, and I hope I can explain without being confusing(or offensive)... I simply don't view him as an almighty figure. He seems to me to have been a local deity, and the god to the Jewish people. Many others choose to worship him as what we'd call in Hinduism, an Ishta Devata, or chosen Divine ideal(and there's nothing wrong with that). Any deity can be chosen and worshipped as Ishta Devata. Personally, I see him about on par with Indra, Zeus, Thor, etc(on par with, but not the same, as I consider them all different entities).

When it comes to Vishnu, I view him on more on a cosmic level; he's the personified face of the force that preserves the universe.

(The above is simply my opinion. :D )
If Krishna is Vishnu or God, then I suppose He could do whatever He wanted. Why not divide into 16,000 or more of the same people and share yourself around?

Interestingly Solomon who is recognized by Islam, Christianity and Judaism as being one of the Jewish Prophets and King of Israel had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

Interesting! That's a lot! I don't suppose he divided himself up, too?

I do think Solomon and Krishna differ in their marriages in attitude. I've only heard second hand stories about Solomon, so excuse any mistakes, but it seemed as if Solomon sought out these women for his own pleasures as well... With Krishna, it was more "I accept".

In the Gita, it states that whatever you offer Krishna, so long as its offered in love, it will be accepted. Princess Rukmini sought out Krishna as a husband. He accepted. Jambhavati was offered to him as a wife. He accepted. It wasn't that he physically lusted for these women, or desired them for himself... He happily accepted their love. Many of them came from a one time rescue... these thousands of freed women wanted to become his wives... he accepted. There's even a story of him straightening the back of a hunchback prostitute, and, when she joyfully offered her services, he accepted those, too. When questioned on why he did such a thing, he responded "that is the only way she knew how to offer love. I will happily accept it".
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It would be fair to state that Christianity's efforts to convert Hindu India has made very modest progress over two thousand years if the proportion of Christian in India is anything to go by.

It doesn’t matter about the figures TODAY. It mattered THEN.

Would it be easier to proselytise to Christianity if you claim God is ONE SPIRIT PERSON GOD (“what? How can one God do all this”, is their first reaction!!!
… or that that God is THREE PERSONS (as their current belief claims there are three Gods) BUT to view the three as a ‘Godhead’ and there to be seen as ONE ‘GOD’?

However, how the three could be one has developed over two thousand years as people asked questions and no further forthright answer could be immediately found. The idea of an unfounded term (Hypostasise) was invented to try to fill the yawning void.

If you look at the various by creeds that were developed which compelled Christian’s to believe of be condemned (threatened to keep quiet!!) you will see that they have changed as more inventive ways were found to explain the ridiculous and impossible ideas.
  • ‘We believe in God, the Father, MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH….’
You will find claims like this:
  • ‘Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things were made’
and:
  • ‘Jesus CREATED ALL THINGS…’
  • ‘Jesus is YHWH’
These last two therefore claim that Jesus is the Father - which they backup with:
  • ‘I, and the Father, are one!’
That is desperation!!! And they hadn’t yet worked out his ‘Jesus and God’ are a T-R-I-N-I-T-Y…..!!!

BUT for every exposure of a fallacy regarding the trinity, clever minded trini’s CREATE A WORKAROUND which is propagated by repetition in the trinitarian community.

TRUE… Trinity will continue until Jesus Christ returns and tells them that:
  • I AMNOT GOD’
    • That should be simple enough - shouldn’t it??
  • I AM telling you that I AM the GOD’S SON
    • ‘A [true] Son’ is “He who does the WORKS OF THE FATHER”
  • ‘My Father is GREATER THAN I AM’!!!
    • How can I be my Father if He’s greater than me?
  • I AM only able to do what I AMfirst seeing my Father doing….’:
    • So how did I create all things … or anything … that the Father didn’t first create??
I AM’ is NOT A NAME… it is the MEANING of THE NAME: ‘YHWH’.

YHWH’ is the NAME the one true God gave for himself - an ETERNAL NAME which, by interpretation, means, ‘Never Changing, IMMUTABLE, A CONSTANT)
 
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