What if we accepted each others Religion?

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

Here is another Hadith, mentioned of the event that will happen after the Qaim has come:

In Tafsir Ayyashi it is narrated from Jabir Jofi that he said: Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) told me in a lengthy tradition: O Jabir, the first country to be destroyed in the west is the land of Shaam. Three groups with three different flags will clash there. This report is also like the previous
detailed narration and it ends at the verse of:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ آمِنُواْ بِمَا نَزَّلْنَا مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا مَعَكُم مِّن قَبْلِ أَن نَّطْمِسَ
وُجُوهًا فَنَرُدَّهَا عَلَى أَدْبَارِهَا

“O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs.” (Surah Nisa 4:47)


Land of Sham, in those days, includes Syria and Palestine.

In Hadithes, and the Quran, it is said, God will make Muslims weak against their enemies in the same way, that God did so to the Jews, when they rejected Jesus.

So, I am not making things up. I am only reporting the info. I am an honest witness that is reporting what is happening.

You see what the verse 4:47 is saying?
It is saying to Muslims, that believe what Allah have said about the Qaim. If you do not believe, Allah will destroy just as did before.

 

[Link]

The hadiths also talk about the rising of the man from Qum, the rising of Yemeni, and the Khorasani and to be honest, I never looked to the chains and seen if authentic or not. A lot of people agree a lot of the pre-time prophecies regarding Imam Mahdi (a) are happening. However, I stay neutral, because these prophecies appeared to happen in history and even maybe on events that happened that created them.

For example, the name of Imam Mahd (a) father being "abdullah" came from someone with the name "Mohammad son of Abdallah" historically rising and he was known as "the pure soul" after and traditions of a pure soul being killed made their way. So many hadiths were made to that effect, that now Sunnis believe that the Mahdi (a) father name must be "Abdullah".

Was there actually risings from Yemen, of course. Zaidis in Yemen may have made those hadiths similarly in past events.

Now it maybe the hadiths are true, and Sunnis would argue, the hadiths are true, and that's why people rose with a fake Mahdi with that name, a long time ago, so it's about what came first chicken or egg type scenario.

But what is important is stick to what's clear. Imam Hussain (a) in the sermon calling people to rise up says the main thing that let their enemies rule them was that people resorted to ambiguities when there existed clear proofs, and this was out of love of Dunya.

The Quran has a different way to talk about the Mahdi (a), and that is to given different scenarios with Mohammad's (s) life. We don't know what will happen, if a few believers, if followers are like Bani-Israel awaiting and then following Musa (a) we await him and suffer a lot before or after he comes till the victory, or we abandon him and others follow him, or over all the world is immersed in disbelief and religion dies off so that almost every city is destroyed with few believers here and there from each. The world was set to lose Islam and religion in general really or it become really not important were it not for Khomeini (q), and I've heard this from atheist professors too.

At the end, you see things and it's hard to correct the way you see things. Mohammad (s) being the final Nabi is clear, but you build on unclear.

 

[Link]

Salam

Personally, I don't like hadith wars, for example, a person can use this hadith to imply Iran is on the correct Islam:


سَتَخْلُو كُوفَةُ مِنَ الْمُؤمِنينَ وَيَأْزَرُ عَنَهَا الْعِلْمُ كَما تأزَرُ الحَيَّةُ فى جُحْرِها، ثُمَّ يَظْهَرُ الْعِلْمُ بِبَلْدَةٍ يُقالُ لَها قُمُّ، وَيَصيرُ مَعْدِناً لِلْعِلْمِ وَالفَضْلِ حَتَّى لا يَبْقى فِى الأرْضِ مُسْتَضْعَفٌ فى الدّينِ حَتَّى الْمُخَدَّراتِ في الْحِجالِ، وَذلِكَ عِنْدَ قُرْبِ ظُهُورِ قائِمِنا

“Soon Kufa will become empty of the faithful, and knowledge will go out of Kufa as a snake goes out of its lair. Then the knowledge will appear in a land called Qum. It will become the centre of knowledge and merits. No-one, not even the women at home, will be unaware of the religion of God. This will be close to the time of the reappearance of our Qā’im (Imam Mahdī).”

Bihār al-Anwār, vol. 60, p. 213; Tārīkh-e Qadīm-e Qum, p. 95.

And people can use the following hadith and it would be wrong per me to justify political decisions by it:


حدثنا الوليد بن مسلم ورشدين بن سعد عن ابن لهيعة عن أبي قبيل عن أبي رومان
عن علي بن أبي طالب رضى الله عنه قال إذا خرجت خيل السفياني إلى الكوفة بعث في طلب أهل خراسان ويخرج أهل خراسان في طلب المهدي فيلتقي هو والهاشمي برايات سود على مقدمته شعيب بن صالح فيلتقي هو وأصحاب السفياني بباب اصطخر فتكون بينهم ملحمة عظيمة فتظهر الرايات السود وتهرب خيل السفياني فعند ذلك يتمنى الناس المهدي ويطلبونه

Ali bin Abi Taleb (r.a.) said: "If Sufyani's Cavalry marsh to Kufa, the people of Khorasan will be requested to come to aid*. The people of Khorasan will come out seeking the Mahdi. So, the Hashimi with an army carrying black banners, at its front end is Shuayb bin Salih, will meet the followers of the Sufyani at Istakhar Gate and a great battle will occur between them. The black banners will be victorious. Sufyani's Cavalry will run away. At that time, people will wish for the Mahdi (to appear) and ask for him." (Nuaim bin Hammad's Kitab Al-Fitan)

 

[Link]

There is this hadith which I think we can all agree is wrong, no one forgets Iran:

Muḥammad b. Qutaybah al-Hamdānī and Ḥasan b. ‘Alī al-Kashmārijānī from ‘Alī b. al-Nu‘mān from Abī al-Akrād ‘Alī b. Maymūn al-Ṣā’igh from Abī ‘Abdillah (a):

Allah will use Kufa as proof against the rest of the cities, and its believers against residents of other cities, and He will use the city of Qom as proof against all the cities and its residents against all of the people of the East and the West, from the Jinn and humans. Allah will not leave its people weak (mustaḍ’af), rather He will grant them success and assist them.

Then he (a) said: The religion and the people of Qom are despised, and if this was not the case, people would have rushed towards it and would have left Qom in ruins and its residents would have abandoned it, and it would not remain as a proof against all the cities. If that happens, the skies and earth will no longer remain stable, and no one would have an opportunity to blink.

Calamities are kept away from Qom and its residents. There will come a time when the city of Qom and its residents will be a proof against all of creation, and this will be in the time of the occultation of our Qā’im (a), until his (a) reappearance. If this is not the case, the earth will collapse alongside its residents.

The angels keep away calamities from Qom and its residents, and a tyrant does not approach the city with evil intent except that he will be smashed by Qāṣim al-Jabbārīn1 and He diverts catastrophes or calamities, or enemies away from them. Allah makes the tyrants forget the remembrance of Qom and its residents during their reign just like they have forgotten the remembrance of Allah.

 

[Link]

Okay maybe forgetting their remembrance can be interpreted not knowing their worth in the same way they don't God and his light. But what I'm saying, there is a reason I don't get into these hadith wars with you @InvestigateTruth and it's because I don't think dhan leads to truth. Hadiths are dhan unless Tawatur level. I stick to what is clear and narrated numerously, not isolated hadiths.

Now Qum and it's merit for all I know might be Tawatur (so many hadiths and chains that there is no doubt). I have not looked into it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The hadiths also talk about the rising of the man from Qum, the rising of Yemeni, and the Khorasani and to be honest, I never looked to the chains and seen if authentic or not.

that Qum is praised in Hadithes as one of the places that has Gate of Paradise, is due to the rise of Alqumi, a well known, inspired man, who wrote Tafseers. He is a true guidance. The Qum, is not about now, our time. The Qum now, is place of false Islam, because Muhammad said the Ulama of Akhirul Zamaan are evil.

A lot of people agree a lot of the pre-time prophecies regarding Imam Mahdi (a) are happening. However, I stay neutral, because these prophecies appeared to happen in history and even maybe on events that happened that created them.

They misinterpreted the Hadithes. Many of the events in Hadithes are about after the Rise of Qaim, and how God punishes them, for rejecting Him.

For example, the name of Imam Mahd (a) father being "abdullah" came from someone with the name "Mohammad son of Abdallah" historically rising and he was known as "the pure soul" after and traditions of a pure soul being killed made their way. So many hadiths were made to that effect, that now Sunnis believe that the Mahdi (a) father name must be "Abdullah".

these Hadithes about Name of the Qaim, are fulfilled. I can show you, but they are worthy of their own Threads.

Was there actually risings from Yemen, of course. Zaidis in Yemen may have made those hadiths similarly in past events.

Now it maybe the hadiths are true, and Sunnis would argue, the hadiths are true, and that's why people rose with a fake Mahdi with that name, a long time ago, so it's about what came first chicken or egg type scenario.

But what is important is stick to what's clear. Imam Hussain (a) in the sermon calling people to rise up says the main thing that let their enemies rule them was that people resorted to ambiguities when there existed clear proofs, and this was out of love of Dunya.

The Quran has a different way to talk about the Mahdi (a), and that is to given different scenarios with Mohammad's (s) life. We don't know what will happen, if a few believers, if followers are like Bani-Israel awaiting and then following Musa (a) we await him and suffer a lot before or after he comes till the victory, or we abandon him and others follow him, or over all the world is immersed in disbelief and religion dies off so that almost every city is destroyed with few believers here and there from each. The world was set to lose Islam and religion in general really or it become really not important were it not for Khomeini (q), and I've heard this from atheist professors too.

At the end, you see things and it's hard to correct the way you see things. Mohammad (s) being the final Nabi is clear, but you build on unclear.

I can put Many Hadithes in the right order, and show you how they were fulfilled and the ones being fulfilled.

Here is another similar Hadith:

بِشَيْءٍ مِّنَ الْخَوفْ وَالْجُوعِ وَنَقْصٍ مِّنَ الأَمَوَالِ وَالأنفُسِ وَالثَّمَرَاتِ وَبَشِّرِ
الصَّابِرِينَ

“And We will most certainly try you with somewhat of fear and hunger
and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient.”
(Surah Baqarah 2:155)

…and he (Imam) said: “O Jabir, it has a general meaning and a special meaning.
The special meaning is that hunger will afflict Kufa and especially the
opponents of Muhammad’s progeny and will destroy them. As for the general
meaning, there will be terror and hunger in Shaam that has never been faced
before. Hunger will be before the rising of the Qaim (a.s.) but terror will be
there after his rising.” This report is also mentioned in Tafsir Ayyashi through
another chain of narrators.

 

[Link]

That's your interpretation which is worthless to be honest. The Quran shows Musa (a) was complained to by his companions and people "We were bothered a lot before you came and now after". The same potentially will occur with the Mahdi (a) but then there will be justice and Faraj.

You don't know how to contextualize Quran let alone hadiths.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Okay maybe forgetting their remembrance can be interpreted not knowing their worth in the same way they don't God and his light. But what I'm saying, there is a reason I don't get into these hadith wars with you @InvestigateTruth and it's because I don't think dhan leads to truth. Hadiths are dhan unless Tawatur level. I stick to what is clear and narrated numerously, not isolated hadiths.

Now Qum and it's merit for all I know might be Tawatur (so many hadiths and chains that there is no doubt). I have not looked into it.

That is understandable.
To know if a Hadith is true or false, all you need to do, is check its compatibility with the Quran.

Let me say this:
Many of the verses of the Quran require Taweel, and correct Interpretation. These Interpretation must be from the Prophet and infallible Imams.
Muslims didn't have the Imams and Muhammad after they left the world.
Only Hadithes left.

How could God allow falsehood in Hadithes, when they are required for true Interpretation of the Quran?
Just as God protected the Quran, He also did so with Hadithes.

The Hadithes are generally true. There could be errors in them. But the early believers made an effort to maintain them.
This idea that there are many false and untrustworthy Hadithes, came from the war between Sunni and Shia.
When did the Prophet or Imams say there will be many false Hadithes?
They have said, check the Hadith agains the Quran. If it matches, then accept it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's your interpretation which is worthless to be honest. The Quran shows Musa (a) was complained to by his companions and people "We were bothered a lot before you came and now after". The same potentially will occur with the Mahdi (a) but then there will be justice and Faraj.

You don't know how to contextualize Quran let alone hadiths.

I did not interpret. I only posted the Hadithes. If you do not like those Hadithes, there is nothing I can do.

 

[Link]

The hadiths you quote don't support your view.

 

[Link]

That is understandable.
To know if a Hadith is true or false, all you need to do, is check its compatibility with the Quran.

Let me say this:
Many of the verses of the Quran require Taweel, and correct Interpretation. These Interpretation must be from the Prophet and infallible Imams.
Muslims didn't have the Imams and Muhammad after they left the world.
Only Hadithes left.

How could God allow falsehood in Hadithes, when they are required for true Interpretation of the Quran?
Just as God protected the Quran, He also did so with Hadithes.

The Hadithes are generally true. There could be errors in them. But the early believers made an effort to maintain them.
This idea that there are many false and untrustworthy Hadithes, came from the war between Sunni and Shia.
When did the Prophet or Imams say there will be many false Hadithes?
They have said, check the Hadith agains the Quran. If it matches, then accept it.

If hadiths are generally true then there are many hadiths that say:

Kill a person claiming to be a Prophet after Mohammad (s).
Kill a person who leaves the religion of Islam
Kill a person who insults the Prophet (s).

Do you believe in these?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is this hadith which I think we can all agree is wrong, no one forgets Iran:

Ok, let's see.

Muḥammad b. Qutaybah al-Hamdānī and Ḥasan b. ‘Alī al-Kashmārijānī from ‘Alī b. al-Nu‘mān from Abī al-Akrād ‘Alī b. Maymūn al-Ṣā’igh from Abī ‘Abdillah (a):

Allah will use Kufa as proof against the rest of the cities,
and its believers against residents of other cities, and He will use the city of Qom as proof against all the cities and its residents against all of the people of the East and the West, from the Jinn and humans. Allah will not leave its people weak (mustaḍ’af), rather He will grant them success and assist them.

Then he (a) said: The religion and the people of Qom are despised, and if this was not the case, people would have rushed towards it and would have left Qom in ruins and its residents would have abandoned it, and it would not remain as a proof against all the cities. If that happens, the skies and earth will no longer remain stable, and no one would have an opportunity to blink.

Calamities are kept away from Qom and its residents. There will come a time when the city of Qom and its residents will be a proof against all of creation, and this will be in the time of the occultation of our Qā’im (a), until his (a) reappearance.

See even the Hadith is saying, it is talking to the time before Rise of the Qaim.
The Day of Resurrection or Rise of the Qaim was to happen 1000 years after, and in Bahai view already happend as you know my belief

.....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If hadiths are generally true then there are many hadiths that say:

Kill a person claiming to be a Prophet after Mohammad (s).
Kill a person who leaves the religion of Islam
Kill a person who insults the Prophet (s).

Do you believe in these?

They are already dead and one does not need to literally kill them.

Kill in this context could be to remove them from the faith and shun them.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If hadiths are generally true then there are many hadiths that say:

Kill a person claiming to be a Prophet after Mohammad (s).
Kill a person who leaves the religion of Islam
Kill a person who insults the Prophet (s).

Do you believe in these?

There are no such Hadithes as far as I know.
I know there is a Hadith from Imam Ridha that says, if there is false Prophet then kill him. They did not say, if anyone after Muhammad claimed to be Messenger of God, kill him.
We need to understand the Hadithes within the light of the Quran, and at the same time, internet the Verses of the Quran with Hadith. We shouldn't use Hadithes alone without the related Qur'an verse. And we should not internet the verses of the Quran without using the related Hadith. Both to be used hand in hand, to be guided.

 

[Link]

Ok, let's see.


See even the Hadith is saying, it is talking to the time before Rise of the Qaim.
The Day of Resurrection or Rise of the Qaim was to happen 1000 years after, and in Bahai view already happend as you know my belief

Yet the hadith says the message would be universal for all the world. That it would spread to everyone before Qaim (a) comes. That didn't happen before your Qaim.

 

[Link]

There are no such Hadithes as far as I know.
I know there is a Hadith from Imam Ridha that says, if there is false Prophet then kill him. They did not say, if anyone after Muhammad claimed to be Messenger of God, kill him.
We need to understand the Hadithes within the light of the Quran, and at the same time, internet the Verses of the Quran with Hadith. We shouldn't use Hadithes alone without the related Qur'an verse. And we should not internet the verses of the Quran without using the related Hadith. Both to be used hand in hand, to be guided.

No it says anyone claiming to be a Prophet, doesn't say a false Prophet.

 

[Link]

Both to be used hand in hand, to be guided.

What happens when hadiths contradict in interpretation of a verse?

 

[JustGeorge]

I recall the chanting of verses in Sanskrit took up about 20 - 30 minutes. I took a couple of languages had high school and they were my weakest subjects so it seemed like a big mountain to climb if I were to become a Tibetan Buddhist and be serious about it.

Yeah, I could see that being a big hurdle if you've had difficulty with languages in the past.

I enjoyed the teachings from the Tibetan Buddhist Monk. They had to be translated of course. The wisdom within any Buddhist teachings I've come across has always been easy to access and relatable.

I do find Buddhist wisdom is often adaptable to any situation.

We did have the Dalai Lama visit our city on a couple of occasions.

That's cool! Were you able to see him?

Great that you have taken the time to learn some sanskrit and memorization of sacred texts seems invaluable.

What is Bhakti for you?

A sense of devotion that goes beyond the external motions(though may be brought on by them). That moment when you feel your Divine in the trees, in the sky, in the chair next to you. When you find yourself weeping at their tragedies, or in childlike glee at their workings.

Becoming a Baha'i was the culmination of a 5 year search for spiritual truth. I felt I had arrived at my destination and still do.

I'm glad you feel that way!

I like that.

Usually people are in therapy because they want to be, not because their parents find their children a bit odd.

I think my parents may have been a bit odd.

I didn't really get the opportunity to say "no". It was more "you will go to therapy once a week". Of course, I was pretty reserved with her; I didn't want(and probably didn't need) therapy at that point in my young life.

I've sought psychotherapy on a few occasions at very different stages in life and its been helpful.

Same. It can be very helpful when the person receiving it has sought it(or at least agreed its worth trying) and is wanting to work through something.

Krishna/Vishnu seems the most relatable of all the deities in Hinduism. I appreciate the Hare Krishnas are just a small group of Krishna devotees and that's not your Sampradaya. It is great you have Krishna in your life and you have found the best path for you.

What is it about Krishna you find relatable?

What do you think of Vishnu's other incarnations?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Ancient Religion of Baal, and God’s Multiple Names

Abraham’s mission--ushering a new, unified monotheistic belief system into an idolatrous age--would ultimately require persistence and ingenuity...

bahaiteachings.org

So, it sounds like from this link, that Baha'is do accept all religions, even the polytheistic ones, because they usually had one supreme God. Would you agree with that?

Now about Abraham... from your link...

Abraham’s task as a messenger of God was not to reject or displace El or An or Thoru-el with a new god. It was, rather, to enlarge mankind’s spiritual understanding of the infinite Godhead. Polytheism might have been an acceptable way of visualizing spiritual mysteries at previous stages of mankind’s existence, but it was time for a change. Abraham’s revelation would enable the world to begin the process of relinquishing its attachment to demigods by introducing the concept of a single God whose immensity could not, and should not, be represented by a carved or painted image.​

​

But then... what do Baha'is believe that Adam and Noah taught? Wouldn't they have taught that there is only one God?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Salam

Canada. I'm not responsible over security issues in Iran nor have enough information. However, what I do know is from what has been told to me by @InvestigateTruth as far interpretation of Muslims being punished by God and their political situation is seen as that.

If today in Israel a religion comes out saying the holocaust was a punishment from God, would they allow it as an official religion?

Sounds like more hateful apologetics with trying to justify Iran's poor human's rights record by vilifying the victim.

I have relatives and friends in Canada. The culture has many similarities with New Zealand. You don't sound like any Canadian I know.