YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Live at peace does not mean I should embrace their viewpoint.
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What if we accepted each others Religion?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Agreed. And God was not pleased.
I see this is a new way of looking at the age old concepts CG. If we look at past religions, Muhammad gave a list of past Messengers, Buddhism has a line of Buddha's, some Hindu practices have a line of Avatars, we have the biblical line of prophets and Baha'u'llah has given a line of Messengers.
As there is only one God, the complexity of multipul God's and teachings comes about because of the diversity in the nature and nurture and minds of mankind.
As we can see God in all things, and God has come in many Names, all these can be made into individual God's, they can become Idols of our own minds. Our misunderstanding of God's purpose breeds great division.
Abdul'baha spoke to the San Franciscan Jewish community in 1912. His astounding questions, frank and courageous talk now reflect a neglect that is manifesting in events we now face in this age. This is a truly powerful talk supporting this OP.
Today the Christians are believers in Moses, accept Him as a Prophet of God and praise Him most highly. The Muslims are, likewise, believers in Moses, accept the validity of His Prophethood, at the same time believing in Christ. Could it be said that the acceptance of Moses by the Christians and Muslims has been harmful and detrimental to those people? On the contrary, it has been beneficial to them, proving that they have been fair-minded and just. What harm could result to the Jewish people, then, if they in return should accept Christ and acknowledge the validity of the Prophethood of Muḥammad? By this acceptance and praiseworthy attitude the enmity and hatred which have afflicted mankind so many centuries would be dispelled, fanaticism and bloodshed pass away and the world be blessed by unity and agreement. Christians and Muslims believe and admit that Moses was the Interlocutor of God. Why do you not say that Christ was the Word of God? Why do you not speak these few words that will do away with all this difficulty? Then there will be no more hatred and fanaticism, no more warfare and bloodshed in the Land of Promise. Then there will be peace among you forever.
Verily, I now declare to you that Moses was the Interlocutor of God and a most noteworthy Prophet, that Moses revealed the fundamental law of God and founded the real ethical basis of the civilization and progress of humanity. What harm is there in this? Have I lost anything by saying this to you and believing it as a Bahá'í? On the contrary, it benefits me; and Bahá'u'lláh, the Founder of the Bahá'í Movement, confirms me, saying, "You have been fair and just in your judgment; you have impartially investigated the truth and arrived at a true conclusion; you have announced your belief in Moses, a Prophet of God, and accepted the Torah, the Book of God." Inasmuch as it is possible for me to sweep away all evidences of prejudice by such a liberal and universal statement of belief, why is it not possible for you to do likewise? Why not put an end to this religious strife and establish a bond of connection between the hearts of men? Why should not the followers of one religion praise the Founder or Teacher of another? The other religionists extol the greatness of Moses and admit that He was the Founder of Judaism. Why do the Hebrews refuse to praise and accept the other great Messengers Who have appeared in the world? What harm could there be in this? What rightful objection? None whatever. You would lose nothing by such action and statement. On the contrary, you would contribute to the welfare of mankind. You would be instrumental in establishing the happiness of the world of humanity. The eternal honor of man depends upon the liberalism of this modern age. Inasmuch as our God is one God and the Creator of all mankind, He provides for and protects all. We acknowledge Him as a God of kindness, justice and mercy. Why then should we, His children and followers, war and fight, bringing sorrow and grief into the hearts of each other? God is loving and merciful. His intention in religion has ever been the bond of unity and affinity between humankind.
Abdul Baha speaks at Temple Emmanuel, 1912:
www.bahai.org
Verily, I now declare to you that Moses was the Interlocutor of God and a most noteworthy Prophet, that Moses revealed the fundamental law of God and founded the real ethical basis of the civilization and progress of humanity. What harm is there in this? Have I lost anything by saying this to you and believing it as a Bahá'í? On the contrary, it benefits me; and Bahá'u'lláh, the Founder of the Bahá'í Movement, confirms me, saying, "You have been fair and just in your judgment; you have impartially investigated the truth and arrived at a true conclusion; you have announced your belief in Moses, a Prophet of God, and accepted the Torah, the Book of God." Inasmuch as it is possible for me to sweep away all evidences of prejudice by such a liberal and universal statement of belief, why is it not possible for you to do likewise? Why not put an end to this religious strife and establish a bond of connection between the hearts of men? Why should not the followers of one religion praise the Founder or Teacher of another? The other religionists extol the greatness of Moses and admit that He was the Founder of Judaism. Why do the Hebrews refuse to praise and accept the other great Messengers Who have appeared in the world? What harm could there be in this? What rightful objection? None whatever. You would lose nothing by such action and statement. On the contrary, you would contribute to the welfare of mankind. You would be instrumental in establishing the happiness of the world of humanity. The eternal honor of man depends upon the liberalism of this modern age. Inasmuch as our God is one God and the Creator of all mankind, He provides for and protects all. We acknowledge Him as a God of kindness, justice and mercy. Why then should we, His children and followers, war and fight, bringing sorrow and grief into the hearts of each other? God is loving and merciful. His intention in religion has ever been the bond of unity and affinity between humankind.
Abdul Baha speaks at Temple Emmanuel, 1912:
The Promulgation of Universal Peace | Bahá’í Reference Library
A collection of transcriptions of over one hundred talks delivered by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá during the nine months in 1912 when He travelled across the United States and Canada.
See how powerful that talk was in 1912, in a Jewish place of worship!
Regards Tony
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stvdv
Veteran Member
Essential steps for true acceptance are (IMO):
1) believe all major religions are a valid way to "God"
2) do not believe your Religion/Savior is superior than of the other
In below youtube they claim the Pope has said:
"All Religions are a way to reach God"
Below articles had some positive views on this:
1)
Did Pope Francis say that all religions are equal? Here’s what the Catholic Church teaches. Francis created a stir,languages that express the divine.”
2)
Pope Francis: Don’t be afraid that God has allowed different religions in the world
"What God wants is fraternity among us."
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You don't know how powerful it was as you don't have the response of that community recorded in my view.Abdul'baha spoke to the San Franciscan Jewish community in 1912. His astounding questions, frank and courageous talk now reflect a neglect that is manifesting in events we now face in this age. This is a truly powerful talk supporting this OP.
See how powerful that talk was in 1912, in a Jewish place of worship!Today the Christians are believers in Moses, accept Him as a Prophet of God and praise Him most highly. The Muslims are, likewise, believers in Moses, accept the validity of His Prophethood, at the same time believing in Christ. Could it be said that the acceptance of Moses by the Christians and Muslims has been harmful and detrimental to those people? On the contrary, it has been beneficial to them, proving that they have been fair-minded and just. What harm could result to the Jewish people, then, if they in return should accept Christ and acknowledge the validity of the Prophethood of Muḥammad? By this acceptance and praiseworthy attitude the enmity and hatred which have afflicted mankind so many centuries would be dispelled, fanaticism and bloodshed pass away and the world be blessed by unity and agreement. Christians and Muslims believe and admit that Moses was the Interlocutor of God. Why do you not say that Christ was the Word of God? Why do you not speak these few words that will do away with all this difficulty? Then there will be no more hatred and fanaticism, no more warfare and bloodshed in the Land of Promise. Then there will be peace among you forever.
Verily, I now declare to you that Moses was the Interlocutor of God and a most noteworthy Prophet, that Moses revealed the fundamental law of God and founded the real ethical basis of the civilization and progress of humanity. What harm is there in this? Have I lost anything by saying this to you and believing it as a Bahá'í? On the contrary, it benefits me; and Bahá'u'lláh, the Founder of the Bahá'í Movement, confirms me, saying, "You have been fair and just in your judgment; you have impartially investigated the truth and arrived at a true conclusion; you have announced your belief in Moses, a Prophet of God, and accepted the Torah, the Book of God." Inasmuch as it is possible for me to sweep away all evidences of prejudice by such a liberal and universal statement of belief, why is it not possible for you to do likewise? Why not put an end to this religious strife and establish a bond of connection between the hearts of men? Why should not the followers of one religion praise the Founder or Teacher of another? The other religionists extol the greatness of Moses and admit that He was the Founder of Judaism. Why do the Hebrews refuse to praise and accept the other great Messengers Who have appeared in the world? What harm could there be in this? What rightful objection? None whatever. You would lose nothing by such action and statement. On the contrary, you would contribute to the welfare of mankind. You would be instrumental in establishing the happiness of the world of humanity. The eternal honor of man depends upon the liberalism of this modern age. Inasmuch as our God is one God and the Creator of all mankind, He provides for and protects all. We acknowledge Him as a God of kindness, justice and mercy. Why then should we, His children and followers, war and fight, bringing sorrow and grief into the hearts of each other? God is loving and merciful. His intention in religion has ever been the bond of unity and affinity between humankind.
Abdul Baha speaks at Temple Emmanuel, 1912:
The Promulgation of Universal Peace | Bahá’í Reference Library
A collection of transcriptions of over one hundred talks delivered by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá during the nine months in 1912 when He travelled across the United States and Canada.
It could have fallen flat and been rejected by them and yet here you are haggiographing it telling us how powerful it was without even having a clue in my opinion.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I see that the backlash is that Jesus allegedly said:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"
Christians use one verse to claim that Jesus is The Only Way to God. It is rather pathetic that they have nothing else.
One problem is that Jesus never said that,
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
“Most scholars, if they had worked through the sayings as we had, would tend to agree there is virtually nothing in the fourth Gospel (John) that goes back to Jesus,” said Robert Fortna of Vassar College. Jesus says in John “I am the good shepherd . . . I am the light of the world . . . I am the bread of life,” but that “is mostly the work of the author,” Fortna said. Jesus rarely refers to himself in the other Gospels.
THE REJECTED SAYINGS
The Jesus Seminar, a six-year project based in Sonoma to assess the historical authenticity of sayings attributed to Jesus, concluded that about half were words put into his mouth by Gospel authors and early believers in reflection of their own hopes and fears. Among the sayings rejected were the following:
John 14:6: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Seminar Rules Out 80% of Words Attributed to Jesus : Religion: Provocative meeting of biblical scholars ends six years of voting on authenticity in the Gospels.
The provocative Jesus Seminar on Sunday concluded six years of voting on what the Jesus of history most likely said, ruling out about 80% of words attributed to him in the Gospels and emerging with the picture of a prophet-sage who told parables and made pithy comments.
But even IF Jesus had said "No one comes to the Father except through me"
Jesus never said
"No one has ever come to the Father except through me"
and
Jesus never said
"No one will ever come to the Father except through me"
Even if the Bible was the only true Word of God, the Bible says that the Jews came to the Father through Moses, so that is proof that there is another way to the Father.
I believe that Jesus was the way to the Father during the Christian dispensation, but that dispensation is now over, so Jesus is no longer the way.
Dispensation
- the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
- an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
- a divinely appointed order or age:
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words
The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!
The response was recorded, the response was predictable. Orthodoxy walked out, middle of the road complained and the progressive welcomed the talk in the Spirit it was given.
Regards Tony
Cite the response in full from Jewish or at least non-Baha'i sources please.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Or, after thousands of years of worshipping nature Gods, people developed the idea of a supreme God. After a while, all the other Gods got dropped and the belief in there being only one true God took hold.
But ever with that, we do have the Christians trying to figure out how to keep a belief in one God and still make Jesus God. So, for them, there is one Godhead made up of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
It's just changeable beliefs that people have come up with. But some religions, like the Baha'i Faith, believe their teachings are the absolute truth from that one true God... delivered to them by their prophet, Baha'u'llah.
Not able to research at this time. The talks were recorded in the press, there are independent news articles, someone has complied all these and put them in two books, 1000's of news articles. Volume 1 goes up to 1912. I have both volumes twice.
Apostle of Peace, Vol. 1– Bahá’í Books UK
A fascinating collection of a few hundred of the over 2,200 press articles written about ‘Abdu’l-Bahá during His lifetime. This, the first of two volumes, covers the period 1871 to December 1912 and includes ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s first visit to Europe and his journey across North America. Amin Egea, 2017.
Regards Tony
stvdv
Veteran Member
Facts about Christianity and Church:
1) Christianity is an exclusive Religion
(Jesus stories were full of compassion)
2) Christianity is build by people not by Jesus
(Crusaders comes to mind)
3) Christianity claims "all people are sinners"
(Never trust the words of a sinner)
4) Christian Bible is thus written by sinners
(if all people are sinners then ...)
5) History proves Christianity/Church = Control
("Give the people bread and play" tells all)
To bad for the Christians, but these 5 points prove to me, that it was not Jesus who has said or implied "Go around and proselytize, telling the people that their faith or lack thereof is inferior than Christianity and/or they will go to hell, perdition or whatever"
Such word choice is not even humane. A real humane human, has compassion and empathy, and therefore would never use such words
Because such words belittle the feelings and faith of the other, trampling on their soul, which is worse than killing
(
History gives plenty of proof: see the many examples of those who were given 1 choice:
"To be, or not to be"
a) Change faith
b) Be killed.
)
The Golden Rule "do (not do) unto others what you (do not) want them to do unto you" proves John 14:6 Interpretation to be false
And for those who follow the first two Commandments, and who have compassion and empathy, it's even more simple:
"This literal interpretation of John 14:6 violates the First 2 Commandment, and therefore can't be true"
Plenty of Biblical proof for me
Besides,
Common sense told me already at age 10, that John 14:6 interpretation is false, hence I told my mother ca. 50 years ago this was not right
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What you have linked too is, "Here is a... ...collection of only a few hundred of the over 2,200 press articles written about ‘Abdu’l-Bahá during His lifetime." Source: Apostle of Peace, Vol. 1– Bahá’í Books UKNot able to research at this time. The talks were recorded in the press, there are independent news articles, someone has complied all these and put them in two books, 1000's of news articles. Volume 1 goes up to 1912. I have both volumes twice.
Apostle of Peace, Vol. 1– Bahá’í Books UK
A fascinating collection of a few hundred of the over 2,200 press articles written about ‘Abdu’l-Bahá during His lifetime. This, the first of two volumes, covers the period 1871 to December 1912 and includes ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s first visit to Europe and his journey across North America. Amin Egea, 2017.books.bahai.org.uk
Regards Tony
I'm not going to make Baha'i richer by purchasing a book from their bookstore, but I did look at the table of contents and narrowed it down to page 497 (Chicago of which San Francisco is a city), if you could kindly look at the bibliography reference on that page to the actual full article which you claim has the Jewish response I would be interested in it. Thank you
Well done, I have it on my desk. Will let you know.
But I must tell you you have interpreted what I said incorrectly. The response to that talk was most likely recorded by the Baha'i that were there are published in other places, not necessarily the news articles, but let's see, it may have some comments from the Jewish perspective.
Regards Tony
gotti
*Banned*
A lot of people actually do what you're describing.
It's actually a rather in-vogue approach to religion/spirituality. Especially in the west.
Nothing in the press, but content about the talks, one newspaper posted the entire talk.
Mahmúd's Diary is most likely a better source recording some reactions.
Bahá'í Library Online
Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials
This is the Diary entries.
Saturday, October 12, 1912
[San Francisco]
The Master's address at the Jewish Temple was unique and magnificent. His talk, which was delivered to some two thousand Jews, concerned the truth of Christ, the reality of Islam, the oneness of humanity and universal peace. This gathering was clear evidence of the power and majesty of the Center of the Covenant. Indeed, it can be counted as a miracle. The proofs supporting the truth of the reality of Christ and Muhammad, the Messengers of God, flowed from `Abdu'l-Bahá's lips with such majesty and authority that all were dumbfounded. After His talk, many humbly came to see Him to express their gratitude, except for a very few diehards who left in dismay. The chairman of the meeting, considered to be an eminent and learned Jew, introduced the Master:
It then recorded an address about that talk later that day
"Abdu'l-Bahá gave this address in the afternoon at the home of Mrs Goodall and Mrs Cooper:
Today we spoke in the Jewish temple. You saw how it was proven that Christ was the Word of God and Muhammad the Messenger of God. From the beginning of Christianity and Islam up to the present day, no one has spoken thus, proving the validity of Christ and Muhammad in a Jewish temple and in a manner to which no one took exception. Rather, most were appreciative and content. This is none other than the assistance of Bahá'u'lláh..."
I assume you will note the difference in the recorded response by the Diary writer and the record of Abdu’l-Baha's statement.
Regards Tony
To me this is just the words of a Baha'i hagiographer Tony, I believe it is unlikely to reflect the Jewish response from what I've observed of the words of Abdul-Baha being shared with the Jews on RF over the years without some independent verification of this response from non-Bahai reporters.Nothing in the press, but content about the talks, one newspaper posted the entire talk.
Mahmúd's Diary is most likely a better source recording some reactions.
Bahá'í Library Online
Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materialsbahai-library.com
This is the Diary entries.
Saturday, October 12, 1912
[San Francisco]
The Master's address at the Jewish Temple was unique and magnificent. His talk, which was delivered to some two thousand Jews, concerned the truth of Christ, the reality of Islam, the oneness of humanity and universal peace. This gathering was clear evidence of the power and majesty of the Center of the Covenant. Indeed, it can be counted as a miracle. The proofs supporting the truth of the reality of Christ and Muhammad, the Messengers of God, flowed from `Abdu'l-Bahá's lips with such majesty and authority that all were dumbfounded. After His talk, many humbly came to see Him to express their gratitude, except for a very few diehards who left in dismay. The chairman of the meeting, considered to be an eminent and learned Jew, introduced the Master:
It then recorded an address about that talk later that day
"Abdu'l-Bahá gave this address in the afternoon at the home of Mrs Goodall and Mrs Cooper:
Today we spoke in the Jewish temple. You saw how it was proven that Christ was the Word of God and Muhammad the Messenger of God. From the beginning of Christianity and Islam up to the present day, no one has spoken thus, proving the validity of Christ and Muhammad in a Jewish temple and in a manner to which no one took exception. Rather, most were appreciative and content. This is none other than the assistance of Bahá'u'lláh..."
I assume you will note the difference in the recorded response by the Diary writer and the record of Abdu’l-Baha's statement.
Regards Tony
Then you will need to read the independent press reports, which were all mostly favourable.
It maybe that records were kept by many that attended those talks, but I have not heard if any of them published their records. Luckily the Baha'i did.
I actually just found some of them published, here is the link.
1912 Press Coverage of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá | 'Abdu'l-Bahá in America
Many press called Abdul'baha a Prophet, but Abdul'baha made it clear he was not. I am happy to find these.
Regards Tony
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
That's very true, in my opinion.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Glad you think so. It makes sense, doesn't it? But I'm not sure what every religion teaches about living in peace.
Does it have a means to sort by chronological order Tony?Then you will need to read the independent press reports, which were all mostly favourable.
It maybe that records were kept by many that attended those talks, but I have not heard if any of them published their records. Luckily the Baha'i did.
I actually just found some of them published, here is the link.
1912 Press Coverage of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá | 'Abdu'l-Bahá in America
centenary.bahai.us
Many press called Abdul'baha a Prophet, but Abdul'baha made it clear he was not. I am happy to find these.
Regards Tony
I touched on your link and the stories appeared in random order making it difficult to find stories on or about Saturday, October 12, 1912 in San Francisco, Chicago.