What if we accepted each others Religion?

[TransmutingSoul]

I think the problem was that the LSA didn't want people to think that the Baha'i Faith "accepts" people that have dark skin, dreadlocks, play electric guitars and drums and smoke pot.

I can see that. They want to project a certain image. Now a dark skinned man in a nice suit and short hair that's a doctor giving a talk on the oneness of humanity... that would be okay.

That just unfounded nastiness CG.

I will hesitate to offer you answers in the future. I will hold back from responding to you for a while.

May justice find your heart. Tony

 

[oldbadger]

My Baha'i friends were very liberal Baha'is. And it caused problems with those Baha'is in leadership positions. One of them had set everything up to have a Reggae Band play at the San Diego Baha'i Center. I don't remember who gave him the impression that it was going to be okayed by the LSA... but it wasn't.

Back in the 70s the UK Baha'i leadership was very hard nosed and stern.
What I found with 'liberal' Bahá'ís was that they had not found out much about Baha'i but just enjoyed the easy-sell about 'Bahai is beautiful'.

 

[oldbadger]

The Two forerunners, The Bab the 18 letters of the living and Baha'u'llah all came from the Shia line. Baha'u'llah maintained going to the Mosque all through His exiles.

Why would we reject Shia Islam. We embrace the Quran and the Bible.

Regards Tony

In the early times of Baha'i the battles with Shia troops were very bloody.
I don't think that Baha'i embraces Shia Islam nor Sunni Islam at all.
It doesn't support Christianity....etc.......
I do wonder how a Baha'i World would accept anything but Baha'i..... We outsiders would not get the vote for a start.

 

[oldbadger]

Most Likely. Muhammad and the Qur'an are embraced, just a Jesus and the Bible are.

The Jesus that the early church produced certainly did not embrace the laws of the Torah apart from a cherrypicked few.

Bahá'ís should certainly be free to enjoy their celebrations and religion freely, but their political and legal ideas (which they deny) should be well published as a caution to all.

The Baha'i prejudices against transgender, transsexual and transvestite folks cannot show any general acceptance at all. Why don't Bahá'ís make such facts clear to all?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In the early times of Baha'i the battles with Shia troops were very bloody.
I don't think that Baha'i embraces Shia Islam nor Sunni Islam at all.
It doesn't support Christianity....etc.......
I do wonder how a Baha'i World would accept anything but Baha'i..... We outsiders would not get the vote for a start.

That is only because you have chosen an incorrect vision of what is unfolding as the world stumbles towards a Lesser Peace, by attacking each other like bloodthirsty beasts.

Your rights to a productive and virtuous life is not taken away from God, it is only taken away buy our own selves and men that what to dominate others. So we will reap what we have sowed "Taste what your hands have wrought"

"....The promised day is come, the day when tormenting trials will have surged above your heads, and beneath your feet, saying: Taste ye what your hands have wrought! It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought..."

Baha'u'llah was asked how the Baha'i Faith would eventually come about and Baha'u'llah gave a summarized version.

Baha’u’llah said that first, the nations of the world would arm themselves with infernal engines of war, and when fully armed would attack each other like bloodthirsty beasts. As a result, there would be enormous bloodshed throughout the world. Then the wise from all nations would gather together to investigate the cause of such bloodshed. They would come to the conclusion that prejudices were the cause, a major form being religious prejudice. They would therefore try to eliminate religion so as to eliminate prejudice. Later they would realize that man cannot live without religion. Then they would study the teachings of all religions to see which of the religions conformed to the prevailing conditions of the time. It is then that the Cause of God would become universal.

Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi have given quite some graphic material about what we will face, the world is reflecting what they offered.

All the tyranny we will face is not because the Baha'i are trying to help build peace, it is because of all those that do not choose to eliminate predudices and still choose war and persecution.

Stay safe Oldbadger.

It's a crazy world. I brought some eyeglass frames online, the cheapest of the brand I needed, and after I finished the purchase, it turns out they will be sent from the UK! Go figure that, $30 cheaper than Australia.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Baha'i prejudices against transgender, transsexual and transvestite folks cannot show any general acceptance at all. Why don't Bahá'ís make such facts clear to all?

That would be because there is no predudices, there are laws applicable to Baha'i, that they must try to practice.

Of course one could offer the Laws are predudices, you have many times shown the tendency to support laws of other Nations that are based one predudices.

Such a quandary! What laws are Just and wise and what laws are not just and wise?

Well personally I choose that God knows the best for us and God's laws are not based in predudice

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Stay safe Oldbadger.

It's a crazy world. I brought some eyeglass frames online, the cheapest of the brand I needed, and after I finished the purchase, it turns out they will be sent from the UK! Go figure that, $30 cheaper than Australia.

Regards Tony

And may you stay safe as well Tony.
Crazy world indeed.

 

[oldbadger]

That would be because there is no predudices, there are laws applicable to Baha'i, that they must try to practice.

Of course one could offer the Laws are predudices, you have many times shown the tendency to support laws of other Nations that are based one predudices.

Such a quandary! What laws are Just and wise and what laws are not just and wise?

Well personally I choose that God knows the best for us and God's laws are not based in predudice

Regards Tony

But you're a theist, Tony.
In the big bad world many other theists will disagree or confront your beliefs, even yourself, maybe.
But many non-theists and atheists won't understand what you're saying at all.

Maybe the answer is for us all to put our beliefs and opinions in our pockets?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But you're a theist, Tony.
In the big bad world many other theists will disagree or confront your beliefs, even yourself, maybe.
But many non-theists and atheists won't understand what you're saying at all.

Maybe the answer is for us all to put our beliefs and opinions in our pockets?

I do not see that will be the answer, though Baha'u'llah did say if religion becomes the cause of strife, we would be better off without it.

We are as humanity, in an adolescent stage, angry, battling authority, we will mature and God will become One. No Doubt, 100% it will happen. All the best oldbadger. Give all the best to your better half as well please.

Like my wife, if they can put up with such opinionated persons, they are saints!

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That just unfounded nastiness CG.

I will hesitate to offer you answers in the future. I will hold back from responding to you for a while.

May justice find your heart. Tony

That is a true story, though. What's nasty is when a religion tries too hard to keep an image up.

The LSA's have a conservative leaning to them. The liberal Baha'is wanted to go out and teach and draw people in. The LSA was worried about appearances.

Go ahead tell me it's different in Australia... That all Baha'is get along like one big happy family.

Remember... I knew some of the editors and contributors to Dialogue Magazine. It was the NSA that went after them as if they were evil.

And then there's what happened to Juan Cole. Here's some information about Juan Cole.

Cole began studying Arabic in 1972 and the same year he discovered the Bahá’í Faith and became a Bahá’í....​

​

In the 1990's Cole began to clash with the Bahá’í administration and in 1996 he resigned due to no longer believing in organized religion.[1] In 1998 Cole's book Modernity and the Millenium was published which argued that Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá were influenced by western thought and modernist ideas and criticized later Bahá’í leaders for fostering what he described as literalism, conservatism, and fundamentalism.[​

​

Here's part of a statement from Mr. Cole about him getting in trouble with Baha'i leadership.

In the '90s I occasionally published articles on the Baha'i faith in places
like History Today or scholarly journals. To my knowledge they were well
received.​

​

Then [email protected] came along, and I was introduced to the new medium
of electronic mail on a big listserv. I think all of us were astonished at
what followed, with feminist Baha'is discussing with rather conservative
Iranian males, fundamentalists discussing with academics, mystics meeting
bureaucrats, and all sorts of diverse views being expressed.
[email protected] was controversial in a community that was used to pretty
tight controls on public, written discourse, but I had no reason to think it
was somehow illegitimate as an activity...​

​

I still have no idea why it was that in late April, 1996, I was called up by​

a member of the Continental Board of Counselors and informed that I had on​

[email protected] "made statements contrary to the Covenant." I have been​

back over my messages there numerous times and find nothing in what I said​

that in any way challenged the Baha'i Covenant...​

But he was essentially forced out of the Baha'i Faith.

You know it might be that Baha'i leadership has a problem "building" bridges with certain types of people. Which means... Maybe certain types aren't acceptable by the Baha'i Faith? Only those that obey and follow the rules?

 

[CG Didymus]

Back in the 70s the UK Baha'i leadership was very hard nosed and stern.
What I found with 'liberal' Bahá'ís was that they had not found out much about Baha'i but just enjoyed the easy-sell about 'Bahai is beautiful'.

Yes, I was just a young hippie in Southern California, and they said that their prophet has brought a message from God that will unite the world. And I said. "Far out man."

And the "easy-sell" was beautiful. But the Baha'i Faith is a very "organized" religion. My friends were always in trouble with the LSA.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is a true story, though. What's nasty is when a religion tries too hard to keep an image up.

The LSA's have a conservative leaning to them. The liberal Baha'is wanted to go out and teach and draw people in. The LSA was worried about appearances.

Go ahead tell me it's different in Australia... That all Baha'is get along like one big happy family.

Remember... I knew some of the editors and contributors to Dialogue Magazine. It was the NSA that went after them as if they were evil.

And then there's what happened to Juan Cole. Here's some information about Juan Cole.

Cole began studying Arabic in 1972 and the same year he discovered the Bahá’í Faith and became a Bahá’í....​

​

In the 1990's Cole began to clash with the Bahá’í administration and in 1996 he resigned due to no longer believing in organized religion.[1] In 1998 Cole's book Modernity and the Millenium was published which argued that Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá were influenced by western thought and modernist ideas and criticized later Bahá’í leaders for fostering what he described as literalism, conservatism, and fundamentalism.[​

​

Here's part of a statement from Mr. Cole about him getting in trouble with Baha'i leadership.

In the '90s I occasionally published articles on the Baha'i faith in places​

like History Today or scholarly journals. To my knowledge they were well​

received.​

​

Then [email protected] came along, and I was introduced to the new medium​

of electronic mail on a big listserv. I think all of us were astonished at​

what followed, with feminist Baha'is discussing with rather conservative​

Iranian males, fundamentalists discussing with academics, mystics meeting​

bureaucrats, and all sorts of diverse views being expressed.​

[email protected] was controversial in a community that was used to pretty​

tight controls on public, written discourse, but I had no reason to think it​

was somehow illegitimate as an activity...​

​

I still have no idea why it was that in late April, 1996, I was called up by​

a member of the Continental Board of Counselors and informed that I had on​

[email protected] "made statements contrary to the Covenant." I have been​

back over my messages there numerous times and find nothing in what I said​

that in any way challenged the Baha'i Covenant...​

But he was essentially forced out of the Baha'i Faith.

You know it might be that Baha'i leadership has a problem "building" bridges with certain types of people. Which means... Maybe certain types aren't acceptable by the Baha'i Faith? Only those that obey and follow the rules?

It's all about personal perception. The issue is people that choose to except Baha'u'llah, must not expect to maintain a total liberty of expression. A Baha'i must embrace submission of certain aspects liberty, for the good of all.

This is what Baha'u'llah offers on liberty.

"Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which beseemeth man is submission unto such restraints as will protect him from his own ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the mischief-maker. Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth him to the level of extreme depravity and wickedness. – Baha’u’llah, The Most Holy Book, p. 63.

Liberty, has also been Praised in the writings, so a balance is required. The Universal House of Justice is given to maintain that balance.

"...It is incumbent upon them who are in authority to exercise moderation in all things. Whatsoever passeth beyond the limits of moderation will cease to exert a beneficial influence. Consider for instance such things as liberty, civilization and the like. However much men of understanding may favourably regard them, they will, if carried to excess, exercise a pernicious influence upon men." Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 169.

Those that have issues, do not want a balance, they want to do what they want to do.

Liberty is a fire none can quench, so when all these views outside of Baha'i Law are banded around, looking for compromise in the Law, the Universal House of Justice will adjudicate. At this time many activities outside the law are left up to people's own conciousness, yet if it will effect the faith as a whole, actions will be necessary.

Some will not see the long term wisdom of moderation and will offer replies such as you have quoted.

Liberty can also be embraced within those confines and we can obtain to thr wisdom in this quote.

"Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail—that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs—development and growth are inevitable. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 197.

Balance, Moderation is required, and Baha'u'llah asks us to choose submission to the Elected. If we do, and the decision was based on incorrect information, then we are told a wrong will be made right. If we do not, we create a path of error.

All this takes strong Faith in what Baha'u'llah has offered to humanity, that Baha'u'llah knows better than us.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I do not see that will be the answer, though Baha'u'llah did say if religion becomes the cause of strife, we would be better off without it.

We are as humanity, in an adolescent stage, angry, battling authority, we will mature and God will become One. No Doubt, 100% it will happen. All the best oldbadger. Give all the best to your better half as well please.

Like my wife, if they can put up with such opinionated persons, they are saints!

Regards Tony

You think that 'it will happen'?
Fortunately for the world, Tony, I don't think it can or will happen.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, I was just a young hippie in Southern California, and they said that their prophet has brought a message from God that will unite the world. And I said. "Far out man."

And the "easy-sell" was beautiful. But the Baha'i Faith is a very "organized" religion. My friends were always in trouble with the LSA.

Exactly so!
An Iranian Baha'i told me that 'over there) they looked upon most Western Bahá'ís as 'silly but useful'..... Most western Bahá'ís had absolutely no idea about what Baha'i was.
And as for 'LSAs', it was Shoghi Effendi who instructed that the real title for 'Local Houses of Justice' and 'National Houses of Justice' should be changed to the sweeter 'spiritual assembly' ....but as soon as these Courts would have the power to deliver government and judgement then the face of Baha'i would be quite different.

Western Bahá'ís seem to see a beautiful system, whereas I see a very nasty influence. But I think we're reasonably safe from it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You think that 'it will happen'?
Fortunately for the world, Tony, I don't think it can or will happen.

Unfortunately for the world, I see people unfortunately think it will not happen!

Yes, as it is happening as already recorded. If only people had at least read it all! Different frames of references would have been available.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

What is meant by "embrace"? I know you use the quote about the Bible being a "sure" guide. But the Baha'is don't use it as a "sure" guide.

Please read the fine print.

Some doctrines need to be rejected? You mean those based on verses directly out of the New Testament?

Satan, hell, the resurrection, the Creation story and Flood and so many more things are told as if they are true, historical events. What would you expect people to do, but believe them?

Not until the Baha'i Faith comes along as tells people that those things were actual historical events. And things like Satan, hell, and the resurrection were symbolic.

But Baha'i beliefs will cause unity between people of all races and religions... once they reject believing their old religion as being literally true. And instead start believing what the Baha'i Faith teaches. Which... I don't really see the Baha'i Faith as "accepting" or "embracing" the old religions. But rather... saying they do and then rejecting the things that they don't believe are true about them.

And that's alright with me. I reject some of the beliefs of all the religions. There's some things that are true and some things that don't sound true. But that includes the Baha'i Faith. Whereas Baha'is act as if their stuff is the absolute truth. And you don't believe any other religions, but yours, has the absolute truth. For Baha'is, they all have some things that need to be rejected. And it is misleading to keep pretending that Baha'is "accept" all other religions.

According to Baha’u’llah all the Manifestations are true and none is superior to another. So all Prophets and Messengers are accepted equally by the Baha’i Faith. But you tell me which of the 40,000 sects of Christianity has the correct and true understanding and interpretation of the Bible or any other divided religion for that matter? Sunni or Shiah which one ? Theravada or Mayahana? Or the many sects of Hinduism?

But they all have one thing in common that a future Buddha or Christ or that the Lord will come with angels to reestablish religion and unseal the correct interpretation. No one who is conversant with these scriptures can deny that they foretell a Promised One and one of His duties will be to clarify the misunderstandings which have arisen and been a cause of conflict and disunity. This is what Baha’u’llah has done.

So we accept all the scriptures of the major religions just not the interpretations which have led to schisms, divisions and sects. I didn’t accept Buddha or Krishna or Muhammad or Zoroaster until I read Baha’u’llah’s Writings and the result is I consider all of them my brothers and sisters.

Of course those who believe in the supremacy of their religion or that it is the final and only valid religion will never accept to open their eyes to the truth in other religions. But one has to only close ones eyes to shut out the truth. If you close your eyes do you see the world or even the room you are in? What’s wrong with accepting that each religion teaches truth? Such a belief creates respect and friendship between the religions. But if superiority is more important then we deprive ourselves of the unity and peace we could have which is the true aim of all faiths. To expand the brotherhood from the family to the state then nation then all humanity.

 

[oldbadger]

Unfortunately for the world, I see people unfortunately think it will not happen!

Yes, as it is happening as already recorded. If only people had at least read it all! Different frames of references would have been available.

Regards Tony

Oh Tony! Western people could not and still cannot read it all.
For example, back in the day when Didymus was a Baha'i in California only a few of Bahauallah's books had been translated.
Western Bahá'ís that did decide to translate books were 'shunned'.
I believe that even today there may be documents witheld.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh Tony! Western people could not and still cannot read it all.
For example, back in the day when Didymus was a Baha'i in California only a few of Bahauallah's books had been translated.
Western Bahá'ís that did decide to translate books were 'shunned'.
I believe that even today there may be documents witheld.

I see you just describe peoples choices oldbadger. The translated Writings have been available. I was also a Baha'i in that age, and many Writings were available, one only had to pursue thrm, as they were in books. There was No internet.

Now there is.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

www.bahai.org

People were not sanctioned because they undertook Provisional translations.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I see you just describe peoples choices oldbadger. The translated Writings have been available. I was also a Baha'i in that age, and many Writings were available, one only had to pursue thrm, as they were in books. There was No internet.

Now there is.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

www.bahai.org

People were not sanctioned because they undertook Provisional translations.

Regards Tony

No Tony.....
Example:

Reddit · r/FreeSpeechBahai
10+ comments · 2 years ago
UHJ admits to withholding part of the will of Baha'u'llah : r/FreeSpeechBahai

The postscript was not included as part of the Will by 'Abdu'l-Bahā when He circulated it during His lifetime, and this approach......

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No Tony.....
Example:
Reddit · r/FreeSpeechBahai

The postscript was not included as part of the Will by 'Abdu'l-Bahā when He circulated it during His lifetime, and this approach......

First one should not search UHJ on the net, it is a Covernant Breakers Site. Full of deceptive material, that's what they do, that is why they are expelled.

Also what you quoted is very false and unreliable news oldbadger. Fancy having to use Reddit for a source of truth, all you will get is such rubbish from unreliable sources!

The link is also not available to someone that does not use these rubbish dumping sites.

That is all you will find if you are looking for withheld information conspiracies, as they do not exist.

The entire story of how the Will of Baha'u'llah was revealed and read is available and it was never disputed by the Covernant Breakers of the time, as all was above board.

Kitáb-i-‘Ahd - Bahai9

bahai9.com

Regards Tony