What if we accepted each others Religion?

[danieldemol]

First one should not search UHJ on the net, it is a Covernant Breakers Site. Full of deceptive material, that's what they do, that is why they are expelled.

Also what you quoted is very false and unreliable news oldbadger. Fancy having to use Reddit for a source of truth, all you will get is such rubbish from unreliable sources!

The link is also not available to someone that does not use these rubbish dumping sites.

That is all you will find if you are looking for withheld information conspiracies, as they do not exist.

The entire story of how the Will of Baha'u'llah was revealed and read is available and it was never disputed by the Covernant Breakers of the time, as all was above board.

Kitáb-i-‘Ahd - Bahai9

bahai9.com

View attachment 98283
Regards Tony

ROFL ah the in my view Bahai apologetics merry go round that starts with step1 deny and ends with admission when Bahai sources are shown confirming this Tony, I honestly don't know why you bother with step1;

Check out page 40 containing letter by the (Haifan) Baha'i Universal House of Justice admitting they decided to withhold part of the will consisting of a post script as published by well respected (within Haifan Baha'i circles) Baha'i "scholar" Christopher Buck;

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_ioannesyan_russian_will.pdf

 

[TransmutingSoul]

ROFL ah the in my view Bahai apologetics merry go round that starts with step1 deny and ends with admission when Bahai sources are shown confirming this Tony, I honestly don't know why you bother with step1;

Check out page 40 containing letter by the (Haifan) Baha'i Universal House of Justice admitting they decided to withhold part of the will consisting of a post script as published by well respected (within Haifan Baha'i circles) Baha'i "scholar" Christopher Buck;

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_ioannesyan_russian_will.pdf

I also can now ROFLOL, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill!

It plain to see why that was left out, Mīrzā Ākā Jān broke Baha'u'llah's Covernant, which rendered his distinction in the Testament of Baha'u'llah null and void. It was a great tragedy that one of the first to beleive in Baha'u'llah came one of the first to break the Covenant.

Mírzá Áqá Ján - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

bahaipedia.org

There is a lot of thoughts written on why this may have happened, I see they were quite valid thoughts.

".. The holograph of the Kitāb-i-‘Ahd contains a passage in the nature of a postscript praising Mīrzā Ākā Jān, directing the friends to show respect to him and expressing the hope that he join ‘Abdu’l Bahā in upholding the standard of loyalty. The postscript was not included as part of the Will by ‘Abdu’l-Bahā when He circulated it during His lifetime, and this approach was continued by Shoghi Effendi. The House of Justice, likewise, has decided not to circulate..."

As the authorised interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Writings, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi left this detail out,says it all. The Universal House of Justice was duty bound to make that same decision. Plain common sense, as respect is not due to a Covenant-breaker.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

respect is not due to a Covenant-breaker.

This pretty much sums up the conservative Baha'i attitude Tony, all the Baha'i UHoJ has to do is declare a person a Covenant Breaker for any or no reason whatsoever and they are no longer accorded respect in my view.

And we don't really know how honestly the UHoJ paraphrases that which it refuses to disclose in my view.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This pretty much sums up the conservative Baha'i attitude Tony, all the Baha'i UHoJ has to do is declare a person a Covenant Breaker for any or no reason whatsoever and they are no longer accorded respect in my view.

And we don't really know how honestly the UHoJ paraphrases that which it refuses to disclose in my view.

You are not aware of the processes, nor of the havoc the Covenant breakers maliciously and deviantly spead. One needs to read what they get up to, before making any comment on how appropriate or inappropriate such actions may be.

Same as translation of the Holy Writings. Great care it taken that no unauthorised translation creeps into scriptures. Great effort needed now, to prevent perverted texts reeking doctrinal nightmares in the future.

As more study is undertaken, many of the books available in the early days, will be subject to a more critical translation.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This pretty much sums up the conservative Baha'i attitude Tony, all the Baha'i UHoJ has to do is declare a person a Covenant Breaker for any or no reason whatsoever and they are no longer accorded respect in my view.

And we don't really know how honestly the UHoJ paraphrases that which it refuses to disclose in my view.

P/S Thank you for the respect of using Universal House of Justice abbreviation.

I do not abbreviate it because of the Covernant Breakers website. Hopefully, one day, they will loose the right to use a name they rejected. No doubt they will loose that right, because it will fade away.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

You are not aware of the processes, nor of the havoc the Covenant breakers maliciously and deviantly spead. One needs to read what they get up to, before making any comment on how appropriate or inappropriate such actions may be.

Yeah I've read the claims of Baha'i hagiography and polemics Tony, they only have substance in a selection of instances in my view, and no one is the villain in their own narrative.

Same as translation of the Holy Writings. Great care it taken that no unauthorised translation creeps into scriptures. Great effort needed now, to prevent perverted texts reeking doctrinal nightmares in the future.

As more study is undertaken, many of the books available in the early days, will be subject to a more critical translation.

Regards Tony

Hardly, more like as more errors and failed prophecies are found they will be subject to further editing and posthoc rationalisation if past Baha'i institution performance is anything to go on in my view.

 

[oldbadger]

First one should not search UHJ on the net, it is a Covernant Breakers Site. Full of deceptive material, that's what they do, that is why they are expelled.

Not True!
Walbridge and Cole were/are both very loyal Bahais and have written(and translated) a very great deal about the Bahai Faith, I've just copy/pasted Juan Cole's explanation of why he was expelled from Bahai.

I invite any members to copy this in to 'google' for his full and (very very shocking) explanation of how a Bahai Leader misused expulsion:-

A Brief History of Douglas Martin, Member, Universal House of Justice
by Juan Cole, one of his victims
31 January 2000

Also what you quoted is very false and unreliable news oldbadger. Fancy having to use Reddit for a source of truth, all you will get is such rubbish from unreliable sources!

You don't get it, Tony, but some of us are saying that Bahai can be an unreliable source.

I understand that you don't believe that 'Bahai can publish propaganda' but then loyal Russians believe that all Russian News is faithful and 'not propaganda'.

We're not on a mission against Bahai on this thread, nor did we join RF for such a purpose, we're just telling how we see it all.

The link is also not available to someone that does not use these rubbish dumping sites.

That is all you will find if you are looking for withheld information conspiracies, as they do not exist.

This morning BBC News reported that the Russian Government calls the British investigation in to the poisoning by two Russian Agents of a lady in Salisbury, England with a deadly spray ........... is all a 'circus'...... and I expect that lots of Russians believe that.

That's the first thought in my mind as I read you telling me that all contrary reports about Bahai are rubbish.

The entire story of how the Will of Baha'u'llah was revealed and read is available and it was never disputed by the Covernant Breakers of the time, as all was above board.

Regards Tony

You see, Tony, how all the 'Covenant Breakers of the time' were so righteous, when it suits you?

 

[Fool]

Firstly I am only referring to the major religions.

Next I’m speaking of accepting the Founder and the spiritual teachings such as virtues and prayer etc not the laws. The administration of each faith would remain.

So Christians would accept Buddha and Muhammad, Buddhists would accept Christ and Baha’is etc

And instead of segregating ourselves in our own churches, pagodas, temples and synagogues, we would visit each others places of worship to meditate and pray together. We Baha’is already do this and read from all the sacred scriptures of each religion in all our services.

In this way we can celebrate our diversity. I think in many places this is happening and also interfaith breaking down barriers. I myself I accept all the major religions and their Founders and Holy Books and find this enriches me greatly. So I read something Christ or Buddha said and it’s a great experience. Christ says to love and Buddha says to fight hate with love and that the greatest of all conquerors is he who conquers his own self. So much wisdom from all these faiths. Why should we deprive ourselves.? If you have any favourite verses please feel most welcome to share them.

hate and love aren't religious. they aren't based on beliefs. love is a factual thing. religions use the idea of love in their construction but don't necessarily act upon it

 

[Muffled]

The last religion I’d believe can accept others is Islam,

Actions talk. Pretty words are nothing.

I actually had a Pakistani Muslim figure I was OK because I believed in God and the End of the World.

 

[Muffled]

I will keep short and clean: those who believe in propaganda of the devil that they see best humans as the worse and vice versa, and trust words of deceivers over God and the truthful guides sent by God and their supporters, deserve hell forever, and they are the source of all suffering in both worlds.

I do not believe any religion other than Satanism would fit that description.

 

[Muffled]

It's impossible. In Islam God is one. Singular. In Christianity it's a Trinity. A Godhead. In the Bahai faith all Christ and Muhammed both are manifestations of God which is blasphemy according to Islam.

This could never be done.

I believe that is false about Christianity since we all believe in one God even if some have misconstrued the Trinity. Bahai's believe a religious philosopher which doesn't count for much. However I am sure the B man had sme concept of God coming from either an Islamic or zoroastrian heritage and evident in his writings but he is not a messenger of God.

 

[firedragon]

However I am sure the B man had sme concept of God coming from either an Islamic or zoroastrian heritage and evident in his writings but he is not a messenger of God.

You are wrong. There is no evidence of that. Can you show me evidence????

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah I've read the claims of Baha'i hagiography and polemics Tony, they only have substance in a selection of instances in my view, and no one is the villain in their own narrative.

Hardly, more like as more errors and failed prophecies are found they will be subject to further editing and posthoc rationalisation if past Baha'i institution performance is anything to go on in my view.

All I can offer, is if a person looks for bad where there is none, they can still find it. That is because they paint just and reasonable responses in the light they have chosen to see it.

I do understand why, as there are many supposedly just and reasonable responses that are indeed made in an incorrect light.

Thus why I see these Two Hidden Words are foremost in the book.

1O Son of Spirit!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
2.O Son of Spirit!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

Pure, kindly and radiant heart and set Justice before our eyes. The only way we can do that is to know what Baha'u'llah offered with one's own in-depth search.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not True!
Walbridge and Cole were/are both very loyal Bahais and have written(and translated) a very great deal about the Bahai Faith, I've just copy/pasted Juan Cole's explanation of why he was expelled from Bahai.

I invite any members to copy this in to 'google' for his full and (very very shocking) explanation of how a Bahai Leader misused expulsion:-

A Brief History of Douglas Martin, Member, Universal House of Justice
by Juan Cole, one of his victims
31 January 2000


You don't get it, Tony, but some of us are saying that Bahai can be an unreliable source.

I understand that you don't believe that 'Bahai can publish propaganda' but then loyal Russians believe that all Russian News is faithful and 'not propaganda'.

We're not on a mission against Bahai on this thread, nor did we join RF for such a purpose, we're just telling how we see it all.

This morning BBC News reported that the Russian Government calls the British investigation in to the poisoning by two Russian Agents of a lady in Salisbury, England with a deadly spray ........... is all a 'circus'...... and I expect that lots of Russians believe that.

That's the first thought in my mind as I read you telling me that all contrary reports about Bahai are rubbish.

You see, Tony, how all the 'Covenant Breakers of the time' were so righteous, when it suits you?

All I can offer, is if a person looks for bad where there is none, they can still find it. That is because they paint just and reasonable responses in the light they have chosen to see it.

I do understand why, as there are many supposedly just and reasonable responses that are indeed made in an incorrect light.

Thus why I see these Two Hidden Words are foremost in the book.

1O Son of Spirit!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
2.O Son of Spirit!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

Pure, kindly and radiant heart and set Justice before our eyes. The only way we can do that is to know what Baha'u'llah offered with one's own in-depth search.

Regards Tony

I would offer the same reply to you that I offered to danieldemol.

Also you are basing your reply on a lot of stuff that has not been said, you are incorrectly assuming many things, I have said nothing about Walbridge and Cole, naught!

When you offered UHJ, that is not the Universal House of Justice. UHJ is a covenant breakers website. I was informing you of this. I could not open your link.

Daniel supplied a link to the document behind your comments. I have responded to that above.

Thus is why people are not able to embrace other religions, they look for the bad, when a lot of times there is none. But yes there can be deceptive intent as well. Thus my reply to both you and danieldemol, people we find what they are looking for, even if it is not there.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

All I can offer, is if a person looks for bad where there is none, they can still find it.

Precisely why you find bad in *all* so called covenant breakers Tony

"That is because they paint just and reasonable responses in the light they have chosen to see it."

I do understand why, as there are many supposedly just and reasonable responses that are indeed made in an incorrect light.

Thus why I see these Two Hidden Words are foremost in the book.

1O Son of Spirit!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.
2.O Son of Spirit!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

physician heal thyself.

Pure, kindly and radiant heart and set Justice before our eyes. The only way we can do that is to know what Baha'u'llah offered with one's own in-depth search.

Any in depth search requires starting by acknowledging there are at least two sides to every story Tony and certain details can be independently verified, but as you have demonstrated you don't do that in my view - anything that appears to portray the Baha'i faith in a negative light and you just slip into auto-denial mode.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Precisely why you find bad in *all* so called covenant breakers Tony

No not precisley, it is not even a good comparison danieldemol, it appears you have read naught about the covernant breakers.

I will leave it there, no point trying to discuss this, you are not after clarification, you are looking for fuel for a fire.

I also must get better at reading what OP's are being posted in, this is way off topic, but maybe not, maybe it proves a point as to why people are not able to accept other religions?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

So we accept all the scriptures of the major religions just not the interpretations which have led to schisms, divisions and sects. I didn’t accept Buddha or Krishna or Muhammad or Zoroaster until I read Baha’u’llah’s Writings

Well, take the Creation and Flood story in the Bible. They are written as if they are historical events. Since they are in what many people believe to be "God's Word", why shouldn't they believe those stories are literally true?

So, who are the ones "interpreting" those stories? The people that believe they are true? Or the Baha'is that don't believe they are literally true?

Then, now that you "accept" Krishna and Buddha, what is it that believe and accept about them?

What’s wrong with accepting that each religion teaches truth?

But are all religions 100% true? If not, but rather they teach some things that are true and some things that are false, how do you determine exactly which things are true and which are false?

So we accept all the scriptures of the major religions just not the interpretations which have led to schisms, divisions and sects.

Again, what do you "accept" by all these Scriptures? And what do you do when they need some interpreting? Whose interpretation are you going to believe? Like if Born Again Christians believe Jesus rose from the dead. Which, as far as I can tell, that is what the Gospels are claiming. Are you to go with that, or will you instead go with the Baha'i interpretation that says those verses about the resurrection aren't literally true. Therefore, for Baha'is, Jesus did not physically come back to life. That's a schism and division between what their Scriptures claim and what Baha'is believe.

What’s wrong with accepting that each religion teaches truth? Such a belief creates respect and friendship between the religions. But if superiority is more important then we deprive ourselves of the unity and peace we could have which is the true aim of all faiths.

Going to the Jewish Bible. The nation of Israel had a lot of enemies. All of them had religions. The Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Persians and all the rest. Did the God of Israel want them to accept any of those other religions? Did the Children of Israel believe their religion and their God was superior to what they believed to be the false religions and the false Gods of the neighboring people?

Of course, in this day and age it sounds great to just say that all of the old religions were true. But the real Baha'i truth is that Baha'is believe their religion has replaced them all. Their teachings are no longer relevant to needs of this age. The Baha'i Faith is the only religion that has the teachings that are needed today.

So, be honest, is that true, or am I missing something?

 

[oldbadger]

...........
When you offered UHJ, that is not the Universal House of Justice. UHJ is a covenant breakers website. I was informing you of this. I could not open your link.

But you quote covenant breakers when it suits you!
Equally, I have learned to be cautious about Baha'i claims, you know.

Thus is why people are not able to embrace other religions, they look for the bad, when a lot of times there is none.

Wow, are you telling us that most other religions tell the truth 'a lot of times'?

But yes there can be deceptive intent as well. Thus my reply to both you and danieldemol, people we find what they are looking for, even if it is not there.

Regards Tony

That's how I tend to think about Bahá'ís, Tony.

OK, here's an idea.....when 'Come and meet each other' venues are attended, everybody could take off their badges and titles and just come as themselves! As soon as any start on about how friendly/good/righteous they are then the joy will get busted. So if a 'lets all meet up' suggestion is initiated in a secular way, then there won't be so many replies like mine, I guess?

I'd love to meet you after so many years, I really would, but if you started to tell me about Baha'i it would really spoil things. And it would be pointless for me to sell you my belief that I'll break up in to tiny parts after death and drift off in to the North Sea (subject to my wife obeying my wishes!) because this just doesn't attract conversions !

 

[The Hammer]

Firstly I am only referring to the major religions.

That's a shame.

 

[danieldemol]

That's a shame.

The shoe about accepting other religions is really on the other foot when it comes to polytheism vs monotheism, yet the Baha'i who make so much noise about the alleged need to be accepting are sure to backflip when you offer them multiple Gods in my view.