What If Your Country Becomes Islamic

[Robert.Evans]

But Xians have tried to ban alcohol, dancing, prostitution, & "Married With Children".
No Al, Peg, Kelly, Bud & Buck Bundy? Oh, the horror!

Don't know any of those people. But I think not as strict... though I may be wrong. I guess it depends on who is dealing out the law. Dawkins largely attacks Christianity as it is safe ground, he lives longer that way; but he would be more unsafe with Christianity gone and Islam takin over I feel.... there is no way he could say what he is saying now under them.... so perhaps not a bad idea then

 

[Revoltingest]

[no bacon and alcohol, halal food plz]

That's why I made other treats optional.
Btw, bacon can be made from lamb, beef, turkey, & even tofu.
(I don't recommend the latter.)

 

[Woodrow LI]

I wonder if you could be more specific on what a "true Islamic country" would really be like. It is possible that we have very different ideas on what human rights are. So let me ask some specific questions.

In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to create satirical cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, publish and distribute them freely?

In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to publish anti-Islamic material that encourages people to critically examine and even abandon Islam?

In a "true Islamic country" would any Muslim be free to convert to any other religion if they choose to?

In a "true Islamic country" would Christian churches be allowed to operate freely and try to encourage Muslims to abandon Islam and embrace Christianity?

In a true "Islamic Country" the populace would be 100% Muslim No one would even desire to do any of the above. A moot question as no such country exists.

The closest possible today, would be for a majority Muslim nation to have non-Muslim areas in which non-Muslims could do as they please with no interference from the Muslim majority. That does not mean they are confined to a specific area, just that they have their own private sectors that Muslims will not enter. That is pretty much what Saudi does. the non-Muslims basically have their own cities in which Muslims do not enter. This does not mean they are confined to their compounds or even have to live in them. But outside the compounds they have to abide by the same laws as the Muslims. The compounds are quite nice with low rent and free utilities and no interference in their activities. The compounds resemble typical American Small cities

A typical compound

 

[Woodrow LI]

That's why I made other treats optional.
Btw, bacon can be made from lamb, beef, turkey, & even tofu.
(I don't recommend the latter.)

I make it with Tofu. You have to use the extra-firm and cook it in vegetable oil. I find it to be very similar to what I remember bacon being like.

 

[DawudTalut]

I wonder if you could be more specific on what a "true Islamic country" would really be like. It is possible that we have very different ideas on what human rights are. So let me ask some specific questions.

In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to create satirical cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, publish and distribute them freely?

In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to publish anti-Islamic material that encourages people to critically examine and even abandon Islam?

In a "true Islamic country" would any Muslim be free to convert to any other religion if they choose to?

In a "true Islamic country" would Christian churches be allowed to operate freely and try to encourage Muslims to abandon Islam and embrace Christianity?

Peace be on you.

Ahmadiyya Muslim's Point of View

PART 1
[Holy Quran ch4:v59] Verily, Allah commands you to make over the trusts to those entitled to them, and that, when you judge between men, you judge with justice. And surely excellent is that with which Allah admonishes you! Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

Absolute justice is the key of properties of a government mentioned Quran; details are:

""
....the basic fundamentals given in the Quran about any system of government:

1. A government is duty-bound to protect the honour, life and property of its people [18].
2. A ruler must always act with justice, between individuals and between people [19].
3. National matters should be settled by consultation [20].
4. Government must arrange to fulfil the basic needs of man: that is to say, provide him food, clothing and shelter [21].
5. People should be provided a peaceful and secure environment, and their lives, property and honour protected [22].
6. The economic system should be equitable and orderly [22].
7. Health care should be organised [22].
8. There should prevail total religious freedom [23].
9. A vanquished people must be dealt with justly [24].
10. Prisoners of war should be treated with compassion [25].
11. Treaties and agreements must always be honoured [26].
12. Inequitous agreements must not be forced upon the weak [26].
13. Muslim subjects are enjoined to obey the government in authority. The only exception to this rule is a case where the government blatantly opposes and prevents the carrying out of religious duties and obligations [27].
14. If differences should arise with the ruler, then these should be settled in the light of the principles enunciated in the Quran and by the Holy Prophet. In no event should one be swayed by selfish motives [28].
15. People are enjoined to assist the authorities by supporting schemes that aim to promote general well-being and welfare. It is forbidden to launch so-called non-cooperation movements [29]. Similarly, governments are obliged to assist in beneficent undertakings, whether individual or collective, and not to obstruct such endeavours.
16. A powerful country is forbidden from all forms of aggression against another country. Recourse to arms is permitted in self-defence only[30].......""

Source: SOME DISTINCTIVE FEATURES OF ISLAM
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/distinct/
By 4th Ahmadiyya Muslim Khalifa (ra)

Page 219 @ Political Peace By above author @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/IslamsResponseToContemporaryIssues.pdf

=======================================
PART 2
Note: Following is this answer-er's personal understandings in the light of above points, derived from Quran:

In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to create satirical cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, publish and distribute them freely?

No person of any religion or no-religion will be allowed to make such insulting things to any one of any community. Such is common morality in international modesty.

In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to publish anti-Islamic material that encourages people to critically examine and even abandon Islam?

There should be healthy religious debates for all religions. Targeting any certain religion is not rationality. Choose a religion of your choice. ....If you are allowed to do so, others will do for you. There will be anarchy everywhere.

In a "true Islamic country" would any Muslim be free to convert to any other religion if they choose to?

Yes. One may do.It is b/n you and the One Who made you. [but then he will be under watch to avoid any mischief.]

In a "true Islamic country" would Christian churches be allowed to operate freely and try to encourage Muslims to abandon Islam and embrace Christianity?

All religions shall be free to do so including christians....But covert operations on the name of any religion will not be allowed.

Please remember true Islam has full capacity to satiate all human needs.
The Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam by Ahmadiyya Muslim Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.), written with Allah's special help, and read in an inter-religious conference, @

https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

Good wishes.

 

[DawudTalut]

That's why I made other treats optional.
Btw, bacon can be made from lamb, beef, turkey, & even tofu.
(I don't recommend the latter.)

Thanks you have big heart.
wiki says otherwise
"Bacon is a meat product prepared from a pig"
Bacon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I better not eat. Do mind plz.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I would equally object to Christian theocracy and forced conversion to Christianity as experienced by Jews and Pagans. We're just lucky that kind of thing seems to be in the past now.

Sure, much like atheism did in Russia and Romania when they smashed the front teeth out of women for being Christians.....I suppose anyone forcing anything has got to be a bit suspect, as a general rule that is

 

[Smart_Guy]

Thanks you have big heart.
wiki says otherwise
"Bacon is a meat product prepared from a pig"
Bacon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I better not eat. Do mind plz.

Yes, that's what it originally is. Now the technique is adopted to cook beef and other things like it. It is kinda like sausage (hotdog), which originally was imported from Germany, had pork as main ingredient yet now we have only beef and chicken hotdogs available (at least where I live).

 

[Revoltingest]

Thanks you have big heart.
wiki says otherwise
"Bacon is a meat product prepared from a pig"
Bacon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I better not eat. Do mind plz.

Wiki can be so narrow minded.
I've eaten bacon made from lamb, beef, tukey, tofu, & I'd like to try elk.

 

[Frank Bunneh]

To the O.P.
Germany, I'm coming home

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Aye, I agree with you & him too....about many things.
This thing about limiting our military to strictly self defense is not popular here. We're called "isolationists" (a much despised group) by the major political parties.

Yep, figured as much (in terms of having at least some points in common)
You could always just add up Russian and Chinese military spending, and then double the figure for good measure. That should kinda be adequate, one would think, and still save about $150billion per annum...ahem...

 

[fantome profane]

.
In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to create satirical cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, publish and distribute them freely?

No person of any religion or no-religion will be allowed to make such insulting things to any one of any community. Such is common morality in international modesty.

In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to publish anti-Islamic material that encourages people to critically examine and even abandon Islam?

There should be healthy religious debates for all religions. Targeting any certain religion is not rationality. Choose a religion of your choice. ....If you are allowed to do so, others will do for you. There will be anarchy everywhere.

In a "true Islamic country" would any Muslim be free to convert to any other religion if they choose to?

Yes. One may do.It is b/n you and the One Who made you. [but then he will be under watch to avoid any mischief.]

In a "true Islamic country" would Christian churches be allowed to operate freely and try to encourage Muslims to abandon Islam and embrace Christianity?

All religions shall be free to do so including christians....But covert operations on the name of any religion will not be allowed.

Please remember true Islam has full capacity to satiate all human needs.

This is as I suspected. We have different definitions of human rights. All I want you to understand is that I and many others would fight this to the death. In your mind you probably intended this to be comforting, but it is just as I feared. These restrictions of freedom of speech and the singling out of people for special surveillance for religious reasons will not be tolerated in a free society. Do you understand this?

 

[Jumi]

The closest possible today, would be for a majority Muslim nation to have non-Muslim areas in which non-Muslims could do as they please with no interference from the Muslim majority. That does not mean they are confined to a specific area, just that they have their own private sectors that Muslims will not enter. That is pretty much what Saudi does. the non-Muslims basically have their own cities in which Muslims do not enter. This does not mean they are confined to their compounds or even have to live in them. But outside the compounds they have to abide by the same laws as the Muslims. The compounds are quite nice with low rent and free utilities and no interference in their activities. The compounds resemble typical American Small cities

That doesn't sound good. It sounds more like an open prison. It might be good for a short stay but not something you'd want to live in for a longer period. When you left the area you'd be subject to religious laws. And what about Muslims who stopped believing? Could they move there freely? I think not.

A typical compound

Based on Youtube comments it doesn't sound that typical. And there's no people anywhere?

 

[Jumi]

Dawkins largely attacks Christianity as it is safe ground, he lives longer that way; but he would be more unsafe with Christianity gone and Islam takin over I feel.... there is no way he could say what he is saying now under them.... so perhaps not a bad idea then

Have you not seen him talk with Muslims?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Have you not seen him talk with Muslims?

My point wsa he would not do that if your country was Muslim, that is why he does not go to the middle east and preach his rhetoric and dogma.

 

[Woodrow LI]

That doesn't sound good. It sounds more like an open prison. It might be good for a short stay but not something you'd want to live in for a longer period. When you left the area you'd be subject to religious laws. And what about Muslims who stopped believing? Could they move there freely? I think not.



Based on Youtube comments it doesn't sound that typical. And there's no people anywhere?

You could look at it like that. But can you think of any non-Muslim Nation that would allow Muslims to have the same, their own enclave to live in and have their own set of Sharia laws. Able live in such and to freely come and go.

Here are other compounds

Here is a view from a woman that does not like compound life

 

[morphesium]

Pakistan is in turmoil. There is no excuse for what is happening there. The government has pretty much lost control.

Who is the cause for this turmoil? it is not just political turmoil.

As for marriage in Islam there is no chronological minimum age except both parties are to be physically and mentally capable of marriage. Yes, there are abuses of this. Saudi is finally taking steps to stop the abuses:

I appreciate such moves.

The question was about the freedoms of non-Muslims in predominately Muslim Nations. My answer remains the same there is no loss of religious freedom for non-Muslims in most of the Muslim Nations. However, proselytizing is forbidden in nearly all if not all Muslim Nations.

I had gone through an article in wikipedia about politics in Saudi Arabia Politics of Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and I am quoting a few text from this.

Osama bin Laden and 15 out of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi nationals

James Woolsey described Saudi Arabian Wahhabism as "the soil in which Al-Qaeda and its sister terrorist organizations are flourishing."

According to a 2009 U.S. State Department communication by Hillary Clinton, United States Secretary of State, (disclosed as part of the Wikileaks U.S. 'cables leaks' controversy in 2010) "donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide". Part of this funding arises through the zakat (or religious tax) required to be paid by all Saudis to charities, and amounting to at least 2.5 percent of their income.

Terrorism is a GLOBAL THREAT. I can never say that all Muslims are terrorist. Just like any man of value, there are Muslims /(people in all religions) who stand against Terrorism. People who want the world to be peaceful. Literally, the betterment of the world will be proportional to percentage of such people in the population.
But with an incredible amount of money (even zakat money) spending for seeding terrorist activities, do you think these people has a clean hands? Do you think that the situation will improve with time? Do you think that it will cleanse your religion?
If unchecked, it will turn to bite you. It only sows hatred. so under present scenario, "religious freedom for non-Muslims in most of the Muslim Nations" is at stake.
Again quoting some more text from the same article in wikipedia

In 2005, candidates tended to be local businessmen, activists and professionals. Although political parties were not permitted, it was possible to identify candidates as having an Islamist orientation, a liberal agenda or reliant on tribal status. The Islamist candidates tended to be backed by public figures and the religious establishment and won most of the seats in the Saudi cities such as Riyadh, Jeddah, Medina, Tabuk and Taif. Candidates with "Western sympathies or any suspicion of secularism" lost out heavily to "hardline conservatives who were endorsed by the local religious establishment." This demonstrated to some that rather than being a conservative force holding back the country, the royal family was more progressive than the Saudi population as a whole.

If that is the scenario, I am afraid that democratizing your country will have a far negative impact on your country which again questions religious freedom from non - Muslims. If highly "Islamic people" takes control, the situation will be much worse, even thing will revert to the situation prevailed at around forth century AD.
I think why His Highness King Abdullah is such a reformer; why he is thinking out of the box is that because he had proper western education.
I believe ,under the present situation prevailing there, the religious freedom that the non muslims enjoy there is owed to majestic people like him.

 

[Jumi]

You could look at it like that. But can you think of any non-Muslim Nation that would allow Muslims to have the same, their own enclave to live in and have their own set of Sharia laws. Able live in such and to freely come and go.

I don't think Muslims should have problems with secular laws. There is no limitation on practice of religion. Anyone can join their religion of choice or leave when they want to.

Here are other compounds

Checkpoint didn't make it seem like movement is that free. Why was there trash and empty buildings everywhere. Doesn't sound that nice. Even the two more positive ones gave me chills. Did you watch them??

You know if you are male and want to live in that country you will convert or feign conversion because those compounds are bad. And no local friends could come visit you there?

 

[Chev Chelios]

Peace be on you.

Ahmadiyya Muslim's Point of View

PART 1
[Holy Quran ch4:v59] Verily, Allah commands you to make over the trusts to those entitled to them, and that, when you judge between men, you judge with justice. And surely excellent is that with which Allah admonishes you! Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

Absolute justice is the key of properties of a government mentioned Quran; details are:

""
....the basic fundamentals given in the Quran about any system of government:

1. A government is duty-bound to protect the honour, life and property of its people [18].
2. A ruler must always act with justice, between individuals and between people [19].
3. National matters should be settled by consultation [20].
4. Government must arrange to fulfil the basic needs of man: that is to say, provide him food, clothing and shelter [21].
5. People should be provided a peaceful and secure environment, and their lives, property and honour protected [22].
6. The economic system should be equitable and orderly [22].
7. Health care should be organised [22].
8. There should prevail total religious freedom [23].
9. A vanquished people must be dealt with justly [24].
10. Prisoners of war should be treated with compassion [25].
11. Treaties and agreements must always be honoured [26].
12. Inequitous agreements must not be forced upon the weak [26].
13. Muslim subjects are enjoined to obey the government in authority. The only exception to this rule is a case where the government blatantly opposes and prevents the carrying out of religious duties and obligations [27].
14. If differences should arise with the ruler, then these should be settled in the light of the principles enunciated in the Quran and by the Holy Prophet. In no event should one be swayed by selfish motives [28].
15. People are enjoined to assist the authorities by supporting schemes that aim to promote general well-being and welfare. It is forbidden to launch so-called non-cooperation movements [29]. Similarly, governments are obliged to assist in beneficent undertakings, whether individual or collective, and not to obstruct such endeavours.
16. A powerful country is forbidden from all forms of aggression against another country. Recourse to arms is permitted in self-defence only[30].......""

Source: SOME DISTINCTIVE FEATURES OF ISLAM
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/distinct/
By 4th Ahmadiyya Muslim Khalifa (ra)

Page 219 @ Political Peace By above author @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/IslamsResponseToContemporaryIssues.pdf

=======================================
PART 2
Note: Following is this answer-er's personal understandings in the light of above points, derived from Quran:

In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to create satirical cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, publish and distribute them freely?

No person of any religion or no-religion will be allowed to make such insulting things to any one of any community. Such is common morality in international modesty.

In a "true Islamic country" would I be able to publish anti-Islamic material that encourages people to critically examine and even abandon Islam?

There should be healthy religious debates for all religions. Targeting any certain religion is not rationality. Choose a religion of your choice. ....If you are allowed to do so, others will do for you. There will be anarchy everywhere.

In a "true Islamic country" would any Muslim be free to convert to any other religion if they choose to?

Yes. One may do.It is b/n you and the One Who made you. [but then he will be under watch to avoid any mischief.]

In a "true Islamic country" would Christian churches be allowed to operate freely and try to encourage Muslims to abandon Islam and embrace Christianity?

All religions shall be free to do so including christians....But covert operations on the name of any religion will not be allowed.

Please remember true Islam has full capacity to satiate all human needs.
The Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam by Ahmadiyya Muslim Promised Messiah Mahdi (a.s.), written with Allah's special help, and read in an inter-religious conference, @

https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/library/books/Philosophy-of-Teachings-of-Islam.pdf

Good wishes.

You are soft peddling Islam in the least or lying in the extreme. Death for apostates is simply a well established aspect of the faith, as I have discovered in conversation with many Imams and scholars - Islam has many entrances but no exists - when you join it you cannot leave. This precept directly germinated from Sahih Hadith such as that seen in Bukari where we read Muhammad saying " whoever leaves his religion - execute him". We also see the Koran 9:11 and 9:12 giving clear giving instructions for Moslems to kill those that break their pledge to Islam. And so it is, from the Riddyah wars where we saw Moslems kill those that leave their faith, to recent times where we have a young Christian lady face the death penalty for being deemed an apostate - luckily pressure from the West (and not Moslems) saved her. Apostacy laws are actually in place in many Moslems majority countries - so you need to take up this 'misrepresentation' of your faith with them. It is simply incredulous that despite all the evidence you'd distance Islam from any culpability in shaping these abominable practices.

Similarly, Blasphemey is also not allowed in Islam - to blaspheme against the prophet of Islam is fraught with danger for the non Moslem and I can point to much scriptual and literal evidence for this. Pakistan has substantial anti-blasphemy laws in place which have been used to execute many poor souls and of course we recently saw the OIC try and get blasphemy laws imposed on the entire planet - this was all done in true deceptive fashion of the Moslem by trying to push these laws under the guide of 'anti-defamation' laws. The koran repeatedly points out that pain and death which will befall those who insult Islam and the Hadith goes even fruther - it is for these reasons that Islamic theology has shaped a doctrine which influences its followers to literally go crazy if a picture of Muhammad is shown or a teddy bear is named after him. How on Earth can you rewrite your faith in this way and expect to get away with it??

What is funny about your claims is that if Islam really champions respect for all religions and disallows mockery of other faiths, then Islam would have to automatically ban itself for the Koran and Hadith are deeply disparaging of other faiths. It is astonishingly and specifically offensive to other faiths - for example, the religion of peace openly calls Christanity and Judaism as 'corrupted' faiths. So the Islam you push is inherently contradictory because Islam's best texts mock pretty much every faith in quite appaling fashion.

 

[Jumi]

My point wsa he would not do that if your country was Muslim, that is why he does not go to the middle east and preach his rhetoric and dogma.

You mean to say that because you think Islam is worse that he shouldn't criticize religions in the West?