waitasec
Veteran Member
well if this is your way of debating then you are no fun.
you need to support YOUR claim...
because you own that claim not me.
sort of how faith works
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What is a work?
- Thread starter e.r.m.
- Start date
you need to support YOUR claim...
because you own that claim not me.
sort of how faith works
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
well if this is your way of debating then you are no fun.
you need to support YOUR claim...
because you own that claim not me.
sort of how faith works
It is easy to take stabs at something you haven't invested time into understanding. I believe if you want to tread on deep matters such as this one, you need to do the time. No freebees. And on a thread other than works.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i went to bible college....studied to be in the ministry.
why talk about things you absolutely know nothing of...?
it doesn't help anything.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
And yet you have no idea on what I'm talking about?
waitasec
Veteran Member
of course i know...
i've been there....
you said
besides this is getting off topic...
faith is a choice to believe.
let me ask you this, do you own your choices?
if so, why? if not, why?
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
My difference with what you say is you have no balance between God and man. You say it's all man and leave God out.
God gives us the freedom to choose between right and wrong, faith and no faith, to do and not to do, like in the parable of the talents and then God brings us to account for our choices. We own the responsibilty of what we decide. We do not own the capacity to choose. That is given to us by God.
God gives us the freedom to choose between right and wrong, faith and no faith, to do and not to do, like in the parable of the talents and then God brings us to account for our choices. We own the responsibilty of what we decide. We do not own the capacity to choose. That is given to us by God.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Ok, thank you.
waitasec
Veteran Member
exactly, the rest is moot.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Have you either in school or on your own time studied about the coming of the kingdom?
Did not mean to insult your intelligence. I went by what you said "what are you talking about?"
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I don't know why your so skewed in that direction.
waitasec
Veteran Member
again, what does that have anything to do with the subject of the debate?
are we here to debate scripture or not?
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
The scripture gives credit to both, more to God. You give credit only to man.
And this is not even the topic. The topic is what works Paul was referring to in Ephesians 2:8-9. Let's return to that. Not so much debate as defining.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
no i didn't...
i said one plays a pivotal role in their salvation by the ownership of their choice to believe...
it takes 2 to tango...
paul's reasoning is circular
jesus and james disagree with paul.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Yes, I am sorry, you did say it takes two to tango. I acknowledge that. But after Bible college I consider that a bit skim.
Jesus, Paul, and James agreed.
James is only in contradiction with protestantism/evangelicalism definition works (a work = anything you 'do'). The Bible doesn't take the extreme position on works that protestants/evangelicals do-(Luke 6:5-10, for example). Romans 9:32 refers to the bad works as when people do not give God the credit. The Israelites sought righteousness based on faith in the works themselves and not based on faith in God, but it did not put down the works. In 2 Kings 5, Naaman washed in the Jordan and got cleansed. He would not have gotten cleansed if he hadn't washed in the Jordan and he recognized it was God running the show (vs. 15). I suspect the works, where the faith is in "the works", is what Paul is referring to in Ephesians 2:8-9. In which case, it fits perfectly with James.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Although interesting, I'm having trouble understanding what difference it would make if it was a different author.
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Shermana
Heretic
Then you wouldn't be able to use Ephesians 2:8-9 in the argument.
waitasec
Veteran Member
it is a foreign idea to certain believers...
a believer never presumes they share the responsibility for their salvation with god, which questions the entire idea of salvation....
the believer is a part of saving their selves.
so what does it mean when you are responsible for the choices you make?
wait, jesus or the bible...?
you see, paul also says it is the belivers obligation to judge others, when jesus said to not point out the faults of others
or to not judge...worry about yourself is jesus message because you are responsible for the choices you make...
but how is one not to boast when they are playing a vital role in their own salvation?
like i said paul is using circular logic.
jesus was an advocate for good deeds
paul was an advocate for faith...as if it were gods doing that one has it...(so that no one can boast)
which would be saying people are not in control of their beliefs, god is.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Sorry for sounding like a 2 y/o, but why not?
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I'll save this for tomorrow..Good questions, but a lot of tangled concepts. Until then. Take care.